Dan Girardi: Part IV

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Tawnos

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Aren't the effects of zone starts negligible? The same argument used against G when he was being brutalized in usage.

Hockey IQ is a very cliche term. I agree when you think of Dan Girardi you don't think of that term. His success was more 'selling out' as opposed to 'hockey sense'. His ability to block shots were the product of playing a safe, positionally sound game (sometimes too safe, e.g conceding the blue line too easily at times etc.) and subsequently selling out where others wouldnt.

Without a high level of intelligence, he wouldn't be able to effectively sell out. There's timing involved that takes read and recognizing what's coming at you, which requires "hockey sense." Playing a positionally sound game is a result of intelligence too.
 

Raspewtin

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Aren't the effects of zone starts negligible? The same argument used against G when he was being brutalized in usage.

Zone starts don't have as large an effect as some would think imo. They're not useless.

And bad usage isn't an excuse for bad hockey players.
 

Filthy Dangles

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Without a high level of intelligence, he wouldn't be able to effectively sell out. There's timing involved that takes read and recognizing what's coming at you, which requires "hockey sense." Playing a positionally sound game is a result of intelligence too.

I think you are overstating this honestly. It sounds like you are describing him reading a pass and then exploding out of his skates to intercept a cross ice pass or something. Defenseman who do that are what I think of when I think hockey IQ. Reading and breaking up cross ice passes, drop passes along the boards. Girardi's game never entailed this. Also due to his average size and mobility. Lacks the reach and the speed to be able to do stuff like that a lot.

When I look at Girardi's body of work over the years, I just don't agree that his game was a result of above average or great 'hockey IQ'.

While he saw success in his game, I still stand by it was the result of selling out and diving/flopping like a fish on the ice to do whatever he had to do to try and keep the puck out of the net.

Another big issue with Girardi is alot of all of these blocked shots he accumulated over his career were because of himself. Very average puck mover at best in his prime, and him not being able to get the puck out of the zone at times are why he had to block so many damn shots.

I am usually on Girardi's side when this thread blows up. I still see him as an asset. I believe his very underwhelming advnaced stats are partly the result of playing a very nuanced/niche game which entails the accumulation of Corsi Against at the expense of lowering shots/chance quality, but there's no denying he also put himself in harms way too and some of the severity of his numbers are certainly his fault.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

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His best game of the season, after playing pretty well recently. I think some people just overreacted to the first five games of the season. Players play bad for five game stretches. Thats sports.
 

SnowblindNYR

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His best game of the season, after playing pretty well recently. I think some people just overreacted to the first five games of the season. Players play bad for five game stretches. Thats sports.

When it's the first 5 games and the player is in his 30s and has played a grinding style his whole career, it makes people wonder if said player is done.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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When it's the first 5 games and the player is in his 30s and has played a grinding style his whole career, it makes people wonder if said player is done.

Yeah, I know. People have said the same thing about Hank before, and I was one of those people.

I don't know how Girardi has done in corsi recently, but the last few games is back to his level of the last few years. The first few games he wasn't his best.
 

Cassano

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His best game of the season, after playing pretty well recently. I think some people just overreacted to the first five games of the season. Players play bad for five game stretches. Thats sports.

Good game by him tonight, but the sample size of concerning play is more than just the first give games of this season.
 

TheRightWay

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Haha what? The Capitals out-attempted the Rangers 20-9 when Girardi was on the ice and he was forced to take a penalty because he got badly beat. If that's what a "best game" for Girardi looks like then he's not even an NHLer, let alone a first pairing defenseman.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Haha what? The Capitals out-attempted the Rangers 20-9 when Girardi was on the ice and he was forced to take a penalty because he got badly beat. If that's what a "best game" for Girardi looks like then he's not even an NHLer, let alone a first pairing defenseman.

:laugh:

I think you need to evaluate your criteria of evaluating hockey games. Corsi+one questionable penalty doesn't determine whether a player had a good or bad game.
 

True Blue

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I think you need to evaluate your criteria of evaluating hockey games. Corsi+one questionable penalty doesn't determine whether a player had a good or bad game.
Add to that the fact that a certain specific player from the other team was on the ice pretty much most of the time that Girardi was. Corsi does not weigh that in at all.
 

TheRightWay

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Add to that the fact that a certain specific player from the other team was on the ice pretty much most of the time that Girardi was. Corsi does not weigh that in at all.

Girardi was on the ice for 3 NYR shot attempts and 9 WSH shot attempts when Ovechkin was not on the ice. That's terrible. There are many ways to "weigh that in." Just because you're ignorant to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact, you not understanding the ways in which Corsi are used makes it strange that you're questioning it in the first place. Don't you think it's silly to dismiss something you do not understand?
 

Tawnos

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Is Girardi even alone in those numbers from last night? Shots plus blocked shots, Washington out attempted the Rangers 67-38. Meaning without Girardi, the team was 47-29. That's really not "better."

The dominant issue at hand here is not any individuals play, but rather that the whole team played a certain way. Too much individual game circumstance to use a stat like Corsi, which requires large samples to be used accurately in analysis, and draw any real conclusions.
 

TheRightWay

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Is Girardi even alone in those numbers from last night? Shots plus blocked shots, Washington out attempted the Rangers 67-38. Meaning without Girardi, the team was 47-29. That's really not "better."

The dominant issue at hand here is not any individuals play, but rather that the whole team played a certain way. Too much individual game circumstance to use a stat like Corsi, which requires large samples to be used accurately in analysis, and draw any real conclusions.

Not sure what your point is. Outside of the third line and Henrik Lundqvist, the entire team was terrible last night. Including Girardi.
 

eco's bones

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I swear sometimes that there are people who on game nights would rather win the battle of possession stats rather than actually win the game.
 

TheRightWay

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I swear sometimes that there are people who on game nights would rather win the battle of possession stats rather than actually win the game.

In a sense, yes. Imagine finding out your kid got absolutely plastered and decided to drive home anyway, swerving through lanes and running red lights. And you yell at him for making such a stupid decision and he says, "wow dad, but I made it home safe AND saved money that would have gone to a cab. So who cares?"

Yeah, your kid got away with it and in the short-term actually benefited. Does that mean you're happy? Hell ****ing no. Because you know that he got away with one there. If he continues trying to do that then it's eventually going to bite him in the ass. He's either going to get pulled over and have a DUI to his name or he's going to crash the car and hurt himself or someone else.

The Rangers are the drunk kid who made it home. Reality is that the Rangers got away with one there. They go the two points. Wonderful. Take it and run. But they're not winning anything in the long-run getting out-possessed 2-to-1.
 

Raspewtin

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I swear sometimes that there are people who on game nights would rather win the battle of possession stats rather than actually win the game.

I'm almost amazed that this is what you extrapolated from criticism of Dan Girarid.
 

haveandare

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I value possession stats a lot but there are some instances where they should be taken with a few grains of salt, and a game where your team leads early and then holds a big lead for most of the rest of the time is one of those.
 

Raspewtin

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I value possession stats a lot but there are some instances where they should be taken with a few grains of salt, and a game where your team leads early and then holds a big lead for most of the rest of the time is one of those.

You're well aware that we all know that, right? It's possible to play miserably despite this circumstance.
 

haveandare

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You're well aware that we all know that, right? It's possible to play miserably despite this circumstance.

You're well aware that you don't speak for everyone who might possibly visit this page right?

Just a few posts up someone is saying G played poorly and is leaning on his possession as the main indicator.
 
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