Dale Tallon: Panthers lose "between 28 to 30 million dollars per year"

[KCC]

Not surprising. Even if they sold out every game they would still lose millions because tickets are too cheap.

 

[BruinsBtn]

You’ve been duped. The Florida Panther are a healthy business and make profits year after year. Just do a little research, the myth that the Panthers lose money is garbage and been disproven. The Panther just happen to be one of the franchises that has their books audited by an outside party that is unaffiliated with the NHL. It’s a rarity especially in the NHL for anyone outside the NHL to see the books.

There’s a lot more research out there, you’ve been lied to and you believe the story these teams are haemorrhaging money.

NHL Lockout: Why do billionaires keep buying teams that lose money? (Updated)


Last year, Forbes estimated that the Panthers lost $7 million. Over the last nine seasons, they calculate the Panthers total losses at $68 million, an average deficit of $7.5 million per season.
Interestingly, the picture that Forbes paints is at odds with that presented by Broward County. Broward County was primarily responsible for the construction of the Panthers’ arena, and as a result gets to look at the books of the organization. According to the county auditor, the organization made $117.4 million in profit between 1998 and 2012.
How does a team losing $7.5 million per season rack up profits in excess of $100 million? There are a few reasons, and to find them we need to dig a little.

Dude, you've been duped by your poor reading skills. It doesn't say the Panthers have made that much, it says they've gotten that much money from taxpayers to put into the arena. Second, the numbers in that story only backup that they're losing money. It says the Panthers made $10m in 2012. They had 16,628 attendance that year. This year it's down to 13,262. Plus the salary cap is $25m higher now and the Panthers are almost spending to the cap. If anything, I'm shocked they're only losing $30m based on those stories.

 

[leeroggy]

Sports in Miami is just bad idea in general unless a dolphin is involved.

Go back to the last few years and see all the empty seats at Hard Rock Stadium . . . the only way to make money in Miami is if the team is WINNING, ridiculous fair weather fans down here. Miami Hurricanes today? Bad attendance. Marlins? Oy Vey!!! Heat are dropping off too.

When the Panthers are in playoff contention they draw reasonably well. Same with all the rest; that's the key.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Florida Panthers seeking public funds to offset losses of $20 million
Panthers ask for county money as they lose $20-30 million annually
Florida Panthers owner: "the current business model is not sustainable" - TheHockeyNews

This info is over half a decade old, it's not new news lol. Team's not moving.

 

[HisIceness]

Ironic avatar.

Was about to say the same thing

 

[Mosby]

Ironic post, considering the Leafs keep the Coyotes financially afloat.

It all goes into an envelope. Chayka keeps it in the top drawer of his desk. 2024 is written on the front of the envelope.

 

[Bookie21]

These losses aren't nearly as bad for Vinny as people think. This number is before the county gives him $20 million, and these losses are helpful come tax time as he can write the losses off to offset his more successful ventures

 

[aqib]

Just cuirous, what are the conditions to trigger an opt-out in 2023? This maybe setting the stage for bigger subsidies.

 

[TheLegend]

Ironic post, considering the Leafs keep the Coyotes financially afloat.

Snappy comeback.

I could equally say it’s adequate compensation for #34’s services and Toronto’s welcome.

But since Toronto’s revenue sharing goes to prop up a number of teams (including at least one Canadian one) that only shows how juvenile this whole tit for tat tangent was to begin with.

 

[TheLegend]

Taylor Swift concerts and other actually-profitable events would happen regardless of the Panthers existence. If anything, there'd be room/time for *more* non-hockey events if the Panthers were to leave, which means there'd be more profit.

That would only make logical sense if the arena currently had events booked every day in the year and there were extra “profitable” events out there available to be booked.

 

[MNNumbers]

Just cuirous, what are the conditions to trigger an opt-out in 2023? This maybe setting the stage for bigger subsidies.

Here are the details of the lease:
Basically, the Panthers are 100% responsible for the arena. Capital expenses? Panthers. Arena profit? Panthers.
In addition, the Panthers receive, from Broward County, these subsidies:
18-19: 10M
19-20 & 20-21: 8M
21-22 $ 22-23: 6M
At this point they break the lease, but it costs them 72M to do so.
23-24 & 24-25: 4M subsidy.
25-26, 26-27 & 27-28: 2M subsidy.
Cost to break the lease decreases by 8M a year.
Lease ends after 2028 season.

In addition, the county has been examining other possibilities should the team leave. That leads me to believe that the county won't commit to higher subsidies. This lease is the chance the team has to build a base of fans. Hence, the contract with Quenneville.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Now imagine the coyotes.

Get rid of these joke teams seriously. It’s for the good of hockey.

I am sorry, I didn’t realize it was your money they were losing.

 

[voyageur]

Here are the details of the lease:
Basically, the Panthers are 100% responsible for the arena. Capital expenses? Panthers. Arena profit? Panthers.
In addition, the Panthers receive, from Broward County, these subsidies:
18-19: 10M
19-20 & 20-21: 8M
21-22 $ 22-23: 6M
At this point they break the lease, but it costs them 72M to do so.
23-24 & 24-25: 4M subsidy.
25-26, 26-27 & 27-28: 2M subsidy.
Cost to break the lease decreases by 8M a year.
Lease ends after 2028 season.

In addition, the county has been examining other possibilities should the team leave. That leads me to believe that the county won't commit to higher subsidies. This lease is the chance the team has to build a base of fans. Hence, the contract with Quenneville.

Vinny Viola bought into the NHL brand. His market is conceivably the worst, but you own and manage the arena so you have an asset. The hockey team is a tax writeoff, and subsidized. Signing Quenneville and I wouldn't be surprised if they go after Panarin, Bobrovsky and Jacob Trouba, because let's face it, it's easy to sell Miami to a pro athlete. I can't see the Panthers ever being profitable, but I think there is a need to stay competitive because the attendance numbers could really plummet with a lame duck team. Not going to be easy to rise with Tampa, Boston, Toronto and Montreal ahead of them.

 

[Mightygoose]

Here are the details of the lease:
Basically, the Panthers are 100% responsible for the arena. Capital expenses? Panthers. Arena profit? Panthers.
In addition, the Panthers receive, from Broward County, these subsidies:
18-19: 10M
19-20 & 20-21: 8M
21-22 $ 22-23: 6M
At this point they break the lease, but it costs them 72M to do so.
23-24 & 24-25: 4M subsidy.
25-26, 26-27 & 27-28: 2M subsidy.
Cost to break the lease decreases by 8M a year.
Lease ends after 2028 season.

In addition, the county has been examining other possibilities should the team leave. That leads me to believe that the county won't commit to higher subsidies. This lease is the chance the team has to build a base of fans. Hence, the contract with Quenneville.

If I recall correctly, didn't the Panthers have to have commulative losses of 100 million by activate the out clause? Not sure of the exact number.

Granted if they are losing it 28-30 a season, they'll arrive at that number if they plan on using it.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

If I recall correctly, didn't the Panthers have to have commulative losses of 100 million by activate the out clause? Not sure of the exact number.

Granted if they are losing it 28-30 a season, they'll arrive at that number if they plan on using it.

Pretty much but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll leave. If Viola and Cifu eventually want out in lets say 4 years, when the first out clause opens up, they can always pull a Karmanos and only sell to someone who is going to keep the team there and not to Quebecor or whoever owns that area.

This is them going all in. They've been here for roughly six years and have nothing to show for it. However just because we all see empty seats on a Tuesday doesn't mean they're on the phone with Quebecor to start the moving vans down south to please those who feel that they don't belong .They've come out numerous times to squash any speculation about moving and Viola just bought a condo here. Not to mention that its all a tax write off for him. He's a billionaire who owns the team as a hobby.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

Not surprising. Even if they sold out every game they would still lose millions because tickets are too cheap.

Prices will raise if they became consistently good. Compare ticket prices in Chicago in 2006 and compare them now or from the past few years.

 

[ijuka]

When I wrote "they're still an amazing investment overall," how was that ambiguous for you?

That's not wrong to say that, but saying that they're an amazing investment solely because of it giving an opportunity to win the stanley cup is wrong. A hockey team tends to be a good investment because its value increases rapidly, exactly what you want out of an investment - even if you're losing money in operation.

 

[Beezeral]

I imagine most major concerts/events in that area would be the American Airlines Arena or Hardrock Stadium

Nope. Most performers will play both the AAA and BB&T because that hits both miami and Broward/palm beach. Hard rock only hosts the mega events like U2.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

The next best option, which I think is highly doubtful, is moving them to American Airlines Center. I would be interested to see how they do for one home game. The Lightning get tremendous support as their arena is downtown. The big issue I find is the location of arenas, which is what screwed Arizona because Gila River Arena is in Glendale which is so far out west. Their previous arena, home of the Phoenix Suns, is downtown and the Coyotes had some good support down there, good enough to not be questioned relocation. That's one big problem with the Senators is the location of Canadian Tire Centre.

Think it should be a law in the NHL in terms of arenas that they need to be in downtown or within a certain distance away.

On a side note, Toronto I think could have an arena with a capacity of 50,000 downtown and they'd sellout every single game.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

The Heat dont want a second tenant.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If it hasn't already been pointed out, remember: Rocky Wirtz would have you believe the Blackhawks lost money when they won the Cup in 2010 and just barely broke even / made a very small profit in 2013 and 2015.

It's very easy to overstate losses and hide profits with a pro sports team, and there's lots of incentives to do it.

 

[TOGuy14]

Taylor Swift concerts and other actually-profitable events would happen regardless of the Panthers existence. If anything, there'd be room/time for *more* non-hockey events if the Panthers were to leave, which means there'd be more profit.

The city didn't fund a rink so Vinny could host Taylor Swift concerts, the built it to house the Florida Panthers. The other stuff is supposed to be an add on incentive

ie: He can't just fold the Panthers and say "Thanks for the free stadium"

 

[BruinsBtn]

That's not wrong to say that, but saying that they're an amazing investment solely because of it giving an opportunity to win the stanley cup is wrong. A hockey team tends to be a good investment because its value increases rapidly, exactly what you want out of an investment - even if you're losing money in operation.

Congratulations, you just made the argument for mining bitcoin in 2018.

 

[super6646]

Ballmer is the most-hilarious story. He was such an incompetent CEO that his personal shares of Microsoft rose $2 billion on the day he announced he was quitting. The Clippers were basically a gift to him for retirement.

He could’ve been a lot worse tbh in regards to the financials. But yeah, the guy had absolutely zero creativity whatsoever.

 

[MNNumbers]

Several things to reiterate:

1- Yes, the lease requires being able to show 100M of losses in 7 years, by GAAP. This would be no problem. If you actually wanted to break the lease, it must be that there are losses to qualify.

2- Moving anywhere, including in market, requires breaking the lease. That means you can't even play one game at AAC without negotiating with Broward County. The county in this case, and cities in other cases, always make sure this is in place. The only benefit the host government usually gets is having people around. So, there's no way they will allow the games to be elsewhere.

3- That includes leaving, but maintaining operating rights. The 2 go together, clearly.

4- As to Glendale and the location of GRA. As has been said many time.....You can say it was the wrong location. You can say it a million times. But the fact remains that the team was NOT viable renting downtown in a BB arena with poor hockey sightlines and no other revenue save their own games. Glendale was the ONLY place who would build them a rink. Criticize all you want, but if not for Glendale, there was nothing.

4a - Same situation here in Florida. They needed their own rink, and Broward was the only place giving them one.