Dale Tallon: Panthers lose "between 28 to 30 million dollars per year"

[Newsworthy]

So let's go and Sign Panarin and BOB!

 

[garbageteam]

Ah, yes - the "true hockey fans will support a team no matter what" argument, which of course is only true if we're talking about the Canadiens, Rangers, and Maple Leafs and perhaps a dozen other pro sports teams total.

Also, the "real franchises figure out how to win" argument, which always get thrown at the markets who "don't deserve" a team, but always mysteriously never gets lobbed at franchises in locations where "true hockey fans" live and where markets "deserve" a team.

I think all we're missing is a demand to move the team to any city in Canada and the invocation of profits and revenue, and the hate-on for an undesirable market is complete.

It's not any less educated than the asinine assumption that teams should be waited on for more than a quarter century to be successful on the ice to translate into success in the stands. You tell me how stupid that would sound when you're arguing that oft-repeated point if by 2023 they still haven't won a series yet, nevermind a cup.

"Let's wait for some game success!". Bollocks. Just gift it to them if it means so damn much to a team's finances. Worked so well for Carolina obviously.

Also that Toronto fan is probably salty he has to pay $200 or so for decent tickets while Florida fans can get in with $20.

 

[Space umpire]

It's 4 hours between TBL and FLA. If you live mostly anywhere inbetween or north of Tampa, you're going to Tampa to see a game of hockey. And most people in Florida are Tampa Bay fans (better team, still Florida). And that's assuming they even know what hockey is, the average person in Florida probably hasn't even seen a game before unless they moved from up north. The market is too hard for two teams to co-exist honestly.

I was going to read all 7 pages before I posted but sometimes a post is so uneducated that a reply is a must. "The market? Really? Also "if you live in between? There is this thing called the everglades in between but thanks for proving that the geography of Florida or where its people live is not your strong suit. The Panthers draw from 3 counties in southeast Florida (maybe 5 but the other 2 are farther and sparsely populated) the 3 counties (Dade, Broward and Palm Beach) have a population of over 6.1 million people. There are plenty of fans and none of those 6.1 million is driving to Tampa to see the Lightning. Another thing they won't do it pump their dollars into a loser owners pockets. I understand that people in many northern cities don't really have an option for their entertainment dollar but people in Florida do. Nobody here is paying to watch a loser. They've been burned owners tearing down clubs for profit too often.

 

[Space umpire]

I imagine most major concerts/events in that area would be the American Airlines Arena or Hardrock Stadium

"MOST" Keep imagining. There are very few available dates and any major venue in SE Florida.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I was going to read all 7 pages before I posted but sometimes a post is so uneducated that a reply is a must. "The market? Really? Also "if you live in between? There is this thing called the everglades in between but thanks for proving that the geography of Florida or where its people live is not your strong suit. The Panthers draw from 3 counties in southeast Florida (maybe 5 but the other 2 are farther and sparsely populated) the 3 counties (Dade, Broward and Palm Beach) have a population of over 6.1 million people. There are plenty of fans and none of those 6.1 million is driving to Tampa to see the Lightning. Another thing they won't do it pump their dollars into a loser owners pockets. I understand that people in many northern cities don't really have an option for their entertainment dollar but people in Florida do. Nobody here is paying to watch a loser. They've been burned owners tearing down clubs for profit too often.

Ouch, jump to conclusions and miss the mark. I'm from Florida and this is all first hand accounts from those of us that lived further north. I can sympathize not wanting to line the pockets of crappy owners, but TB definitely has the majority of the market right now and it's unlikely it could support two teams if both were good.

 

[Space umpire]

Ouch, jump to conclusions and miss the mark. I'm from Florida and this is all first hand accounts from those of us that lived further north. I can sympathize not wanting to line the pockets of crappy owners, but TB definitely has the majority of the market right now and it's unlikely it could support two teams if both were good.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME MARKET. I lived in Pinellas Co (Seminole) when the Lightning came into existence. While I live in Brevard Co. now I'm a partial STH in Tampa. Tampa has the market for 2 reasons. A) They win. B) In year 2 they moved into the "Thunderdome" and made 10,000 upper deck seats available for $1. game day walk up purchase for every game. (my seats in the 4th row were $18.50 each)
If you have ever introduced anyone to hockey then you understand that once you get them to a few games they are hooked. They are now growing the 2nd generation of fans because dads would take their kids for the cheap entertainment. They are hooked.
However my previous point stands. If either the Lightning or the Panthers went away the other would see no increase in attendance.

 

[Space umpire]

And to bring this fullcircle and back on topic. ... The "team" loses millions. Ownership makes millions as long as they stay in the arena. They get all the arena's revenue. They wouldn't consider leaving anytime soon.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME MARKET

Not physically, but on the broader scale they are. There's no other teams nearby than Tampa and Florida for a long while with Atlanta gone. Introduce someone to hockey and their exact reaction is 'I'm not driving all the way down there when Tampa is closer'. Combine that with Tampa being better and boom, a Lightning fan is born.

Look, you have your opinion and it's quite an emotional one. But I've talked hockey with my friends and family when I'm home since I fell it love with it after leaving. This is anecdotal, but I don't see yours being indifferent either. People barely know about it and those that love it wouldn't drive an extra 3-4 hours to a Panthers game. That means Florida has a market of South Florida and Tampa has a market of Central, North and above. Plus the southern fans that like a better team.

Anyways, just clarifying a point now that I had a few minutes to do so. Carry on with your targeted disagreement and need to educate me.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

The profits from concerts are probably not as much as people think given artists appearance fees have risen dramatically and the consolidation in the concert industry. After all the costs involved, Panthers ownership might come out ahead by $10 - $12 million or so. A decent amount, but the impression I get from reading some of the comments in this thread is that the team would be profiting to the tune of $25 - $30 million and thus the Panthers are raking in the dough despite the lacklustre revenues of the hockey team.

 

[Albatros]

Not physically, but on the broader scale they are. There's no other teams nearby than Tampa and Florida for a long while with Atlanta gone. Introduce someone to hockey and their exact reaction is 'I'm not driving all the way down there when Tampa is closer'. Combine that with Tampa being better and boom, a Lightning fan is born.

Tampa teams aren't very well attended in any other sport though.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

Tampa teams aren't very well attended in any other sport though.

Rays are out in bum f*** Egypt and the Bucs havent been relevant since 2002.

 

[ndal88a]

The profits from concerts are probably not as much as people think given artists appearance fees have risen dramatically and the consolidation in the concert industry. After all the costs involved, Panthers ownership might come out ahead by $10 - $12 million or so. A decent amount, but the impression I get from reading some of the comments in this thread is that the team would be profiting to the tune of $25 - $30 million and thus the Panthers are raking in the dough despite the lacklustre revenues of the hockey team.

This should be very easy to find out. County is getting part of arena profits if profits exceed certain threshold. It used to be $12 million (this was modified some years ago when county gave new subsidies to arena). I believe that threshold was met once so you do math, take arena profits (less than $12 million) minus hockey team losses ($28-$30 million).

JOL

 

[aqib]

So if the arena makes money on non-hockey events why wouldn't the county just sell the arena to someone else who can make a profit off the arena and pay off the debt?

 

[Beezeral]

So if the arena makes money on non-hockey events why wouldn't the county just sell the arena to someone else who can make a profit off the arena and pay off the debt?

Because they want hockey in south Florida?

 

[tarheelhockey]

So if the arena makes money on non-hockey events why wouldn't the county just sell the arena to someone else who can make a profit off the arena and pay off the debt?

Because it's not as easy as it sounds to delete ~45 events a year, and still retain the value of the building. Immediately you are faced with re-negotiating your sponsorship deals, starting with BB&T's naming rights and proceeding all the way down the list. Looking at the arena map, I see there are sponsor-branded restaurants (Corona, Lexus) as well as Subway and Heineken stands; those are instantly devalued and likely cease to exist. Suite season tickets lose a huge chunk of their value, so now you're down revenue for concerts and other events. Suddenly it's a less desirable place to hold a corporate meeting or other bookings in the meeting rooms. Those reductions in revenue mean fewer resources to keep the arena modern; a few years down the road it's a less attractive place for major concerts, so you start to lose the A-list events.

Meanwhile, you're trying to backfill those dates with other events. Most likely, that means lowering the bar to include things like B-list comedy shows, tractor pulls, hair band reunion tours, etc. That drags on the value of booking the arena, further reducing your leverage on A-list bookings who will be even quicker to go elsewhere. It becomes a vicious cycle.

If you want a real-life example of this, look at KeyArena in Seattle. It lost the Sonics in 2008, KeyBank immediately reduced their naming rights deal and ended up bailing in 2011. They never found another naming sponsor so the name has simply stuck even though it's not paid advertising anymore. They managed to hold on to their A-list events because it's the only indoor arena downtown, a stark contrast to the situation in Miami. Nevertheless, they decided that it was better to completely shut down the arena and re-build it with an NHL team as the anchor tenant, than proceed in a death spiral that would have undoubtedly ended in a shiny new building elsewhere and tough decisions on "what to do with the old arena".

 

[pb1300]

I would not be surprised of ownership looks at moving the team to Ft Lauderdale later on. They did take over the War Memorial Auditorium in Ft Lauderdale. They are going to renovate it with two indoor rinks, and a 3000 seat venue for concerts, conventions, and other events. There is word going around that the site will end up being the teams future practice facility.

 

[Hooby Dooby Doo]

I would not be surprised of ownership looks at moving the team to Ft Lauderdale later on. They did take over the War Memorial Auditorium in Ft Lauderdale. They are going to renovate it with two indoor rinks, and a 3000 seat venue for concerts, conventions, and other events. There is word going around that the site will end up being the teams future practice facility.

For fan accessibility in the region, no doubt moving east is a better call. However, its a long, but stress free trip for me at the moment to Sunrise. Anytime I can avoid Broward and Dade traffic on 95 is a good thing. Hence why I refuse to go to Marlin or Heat games .

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It's not any less educated than the asinine assumption that teams should be waited on for more than a quarter century to be successful on the ice to translate into success in the stands. You tell me how stupid that would sound when you're arguing that oft-repeated point if by 2023 they still haven't won a series yet, nevermind a cup.

Fans don't choose where teams operate. Owners do. If some owner wants to lose $15 million a year for 30 years in some desolate location, it's not hurting you at all. [And no, don't invoke "revenue sharing" in some way; if Desolate City wasn't getting it, someone else would. It's how revenue sharing works; all you'd be arguing about is who's "most deserving" which goes back to my point that it's not hurting you at all.]

And, it's been proven repeatedly throughout North American pro sports history that absent a few notable exceptions, fans are not going to show up en masse to support lousy teams - and one (1) good year almost never changes things overnight, absent a title run.

Also that Toronto fan is probably salty he has to pay $200 or so for decent tickets while Florida fans can get in with $20.

I'm salty that people in Florida can hit the beaches 300+ days a year if they choose and pick up as many seashells as they want, while I have to save up a small fortune to go down for a week to perhaps spend 4 days there and hope the weather is good while I'm down there to get a small handful of small, shitty shells that have clearly been picked over by the crowds before me.

Life isn't fair. Suck it up and deal with it, or whine about it incessantly and see if things change any.

 

[SupremeNachos]

Anyone know how much $ most teams make from tickets/merch/food compared to TV deals? I know the NBA and NFL teams make a killing on broadcast rights alone.

 

[powerstuck]

Anyone know how much $ most teams make from tickets/merch/food compared to TV deals? I know the NBA and NFL teams make a killing on broadcast rights alone.

There is a few years old report that Habs are making about 1M$ on every playoff game.

Now, while that's not the best measure, you can assume, given it's the playoff that they make a lot less during regular season (just going on the ticket prices increase for playoffs).

Let's say they make on average half of a playoff game (500K). That's 20.5M over a season.

 

[FeatherHead]

It's not any less educated than the asinine assumption that teams should be waited on for more than a quarter century to be successful on the ice to translate into success in the stands. You tell me how stupid that would sound when you're arguing that oft-repeated point if by 2023 they still haven't won a series yet, nevermind a cup.

"Let's wait for some game success!". Bollocks. Just gift it to them if it means so damn much to a team's finances. Worked so well for Carolina obviously.

Also that Toronto fan is probably salty he has to pay $200 or so for decent tickets while Florida fans can get in with $20.

$20 is the high end of what I'd pay to see the product Florida has consistently iced since coming into the league.