Dahlin vs Heiskanen

[North Cole]

If you are talking the truth, then you have a well-informed opinion that I respect, while I disagree with it. However, this being internet, everyone is as trustworthy as a little kid caught with a hand in cookie jar.

The problem with this line of thought, is that if you're a Dallas fan, can we trust that you will look at the player who isnt "your guy" in an objective manner, or that you watch Buffalo enough to form an opinion about Dahlin? Dallas fans are neutral about Buffalo (assuming they arent fans of both teams) so are you speaking from experience that you watch eastern conference games more than western conference games (besides Dallas)? Seems like a heavy assumption to discredit people that dont agree with you.

You can find a reason like this in order to dismiss anyone's opinion on the site. Most of the time this is just conjecture, so it comes across as arguing in bad faith. You dont trust anyone who doesnt watch a specific number of games of your team, and when someone says they do, according to the post I'm quoting - you still dont really trust them... Hard to have a debate with that mindset.

It not like we're comparing Heis to Gudbranson, and saying Gudbranson is better.

 

[Team Cozens]

Not really comparable when Dahlin plays very different situations. Doesnt play PK and plays much more PP than Heiskanen.

PK is way more exhausting and harder than PP

If Heiskanen was better offensively he would be on the PP but he's not so he's on the PK instead.

 

[TheTwelfth]

Ok, some things in this thread is a bit stupid:

• Heiskanen not playing in the NHL at 18 is not indicative of how good he is now or then. He could have played at that time and him and his team's management opted not to.
• Conversely, Dahlin not playing on the PK is not indicative of weak defence. For some reason, his team's management opts to not play him (or Miller, their PP #2 QB) on the PK, even though he is definitely better than all the other 4 defenders on his team that play the PK (particularly the two lefties McCabe and Scandella).
• Heiskanen not getting PP1 minutes is not indicative of weak offense on his part. Dahlin was stuck behind Ristolainen last year (who is a good PP QB), and Heiskanen is stuck behind Klingberg (who is a top-5 in the league PP QB). Heiskanen will surely with more time push Klingberg down the lineup, but probably not this year.

Looking at it objectively though, Dahlin has so far done more with the ice time he is given, tilted play more in his team's favor than Heiskanen has, and has scored more points. He is also playing with more pre-draft hype (compare McDavid to Barkov in levels of hype), and has done nothing to move of the projected career trajectory from pre-draft.

If you want to claim that Heiskanen somehow is better on defense, then please back it up with something more than "he plays harder minutes", because if last game was any indicative, Buffalo will shorten the bench and play Dahlin from the final TV timeout to the end of the game if they are trailing. Expect them to give Dahlin a rest when given an opportunity (say, being up 7-2 in the third), but he is definitely the work horse they are going to ride this season.

 

[M88K]

Ok, some things in this thread is a bit stupid:

• Heiskanen not playing in the NHL at 18 is not indicative of how good he is now or then. He could have played at that time and him and his team's management opted not to.
• Conversely, Dahlin not playing on the PK is not indicative of weak defence. For some reason, his team's management opts to not play him (or Miller, their PP #2 QB) on the PK, even though he is definitely better than all the other 4 defenders on his team that play the PK (particularly the two lefties McCabe and Scandella).
• Heiskanen not getting PP1 minutes is not indicative of weak offense on his part. Dahlin was stuck behind Ristolainen last year (who is a good PP QB), and Heiskanen is stuck behind Klingberg (who is a top-5 in the league PP QB). Heiskanen will surely with more time push Klingberg down the lineup, but probably not this year.

Looking at it objectively though, Dahlin has so far done more with the ice time he is given, tilted play more in his team's favor than Heiskanen has, and has scored more points. He is also playing with more pre-draft hype (compare McDavid to Barkov in levels of hype), and has done nothing to move of the projected career trajectory from pre-draft.

If you want to claim that Heiskanen somehow is better on defense, then please back it up with something more than "he plays harder minutes", because if last game was any indicative, Buffalo will shorten the bench and play Dahlin from the final TV timeout to the end of the game if they are trailing. Expect them to give Dahlin a rest when given an opportunity (say, being up 7-2 in the third), but he is definitely the work horse they are going to ride this season.

the #4 d-man (in terms on Time on ice per game) is the work horse?
Odd flex

 

[ElGuapo]

Every measure this year shows Dahlin ahead except tied for goals. Go back a few pages and look at analytics. There is actual proof that Dahlin is much better this year. Also, the three game argument works if Heiskanen was better than Dahlin last year. He wasn't in analytics or points. I don't see how anyone can say Heiskanen is better right now. There are no numbers that validate that statement. The numbers suggest the exact opposite. They show Dahlin is pulling away

Why do people keep bringing up this year? Three games is too small a sample size regardless of what either has or hasn't done yet.

 

[Joey Moss]

You're asking about players in two completely different markets.. Buffalo will always be watched more than Dallas. Heiskanen deserves more respect in this poll.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

There are no analytics to show a difference large enough to say anything conclusive. Therefore you look at per 60 stats, to give Dahlin a handicap.

Per 60 stats are integral in analytics. I don't know how you can use this argument. Even without them, Dahlin is ahead in all categories.

 

[tsujimoto74]

You're asking about players in two completely different markets.. Buffalo will always be watched more than Dallas. Heiskanen deserves more respect in this poll.

Horseshit. Everyone watched Dallas play in the playoffs last year. Absolutely no one watches Buffalo unless their team is playing them. Buffalo is a small market that's been mired at the bottom of the standings for years. IMO Dahlin is underhyped by national media.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

Every measure this year shows Dahlin ahead except tied for goals. Go back a few pages and look at analytics. There is actual proof that Dahlin is much better this year. Also, the three game argument works if Heiskanen was better than Dahlin last year. He wasn't in analytics or points. I don't see how anyone can say Heiskanen is better right now. There are no numbers that validate that statement. The numbers suggest the exact opposite. They show Dahlin is pulling away

Why do people keep bringing up this year? Three games is too small a sample size regardless of what either has or hasn't done yet.

Not sure you read my entire post. I addressed the 3 game sample size.

 

[sabresEH]

no its just funny how you fans keep making loads of excuses for him not being as good as dahlin it's hilarious i'm loving this.

Dahlin played as an 18 year old heiskanen did not
Yeah WELL Heiskanen was injured !!!
okay ??? soo yeah he didn't play as an 18 year old
Heiskanen is literally better than dahlin at everything !
except statistically he's not

like you guys really seem to underplay(flat out ignore) exactly how special of a talent you have to be to play as a dman at 18 years old let alone break 40 points while playing amazing defence. but yeah ahhh i guess heiskanen had a great World juniors all while dahlin was taking the league by storm at 18 years old.

Granted I haven’t read every post in this thread because anyone who isn’t recognizing that these two are both exceptional is an idiot. All the stars fans have been saying is he was good enough to play at 18. He just wasn’t afforded the chance. Would he have put up 40+ points at 18? We’ll never know.

Also to say Dahlin played amazing defence is overselling a bit. Did he play amazingly for an 18 year old? Yes. Did he play amazingly in comparison to everyone in the league no matter the age? Not every game. Dahlin had his rookie games last year just like every other rookie does.

Fact is no one should be saying, X is way better than Y at any facet of the game. Both are exceptional in many facets of the game if not all.

 

[TK 421]

I've seen a lot of Miro and he's worth tuning in for if you don't normally catch Stars games. I didn't get to see much of Dahlin but those numbers on that Buffalo team are just filthy, wow. I'll have to make sure to see him more this year.

 

[Kcb12345]

If Heiskanen was better offensively he would be on the PP but he's not so he's on the PK instead.

Dahlin wouldn't get Klingberg moved off the top PP unit either.

 

[TheTwelfth]

the #4 d-man (in terms on Time on ice per game) is the work horse?
Odd flex

Yeah, read the whole paragraph. He gets rested when the team is up 7-2. He is on the ice without a line-change if they are trailing.

 

[TheTwelfth]

Dahlin wouldn't get Klingberg moved off the top PP unit either.

Correct. The best Ds on defence in the league right now is probably something like

Karlsson
Burns
Hedman
Klingberg
Giordano (I guess, did/do not watch much of Calgary)

However, Dahlin is creeping up real fast though. He is not just leaching points off of good players on the PP, he is definitely the person that runs that whole PP with Eichel.

Heiskanen might also climb, but he probably needs (another) injury on Klingberg to prove it.

 

[ElGuapo]

Not sure you read my entire post. I addressed the 3 game sample size.

You addressed it poorly. The connection you're trying to make makes no sense. I also don't buy grand proclamations based on analytics. They are useful but people who rely on them heavily end up looking stupid.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

You addressed it poorly. The connection you're trying to make makes no sense. I also don't buy grand proclamations based on analytics. They are useful but people who rely on them heavily end up looking stupid.

What was addressed poorly? Dahlin having more points and better analytics last year is a cogent statement in regards to the 3 game argument.

The other statement you make is just using analytics. I agree with that. Let's also use points. Dahlin will probably come close to doubling Heiskanen in points this year.

 

[MrThomas]

People are just looking at points Look who is playing PK and who is not. Miro can defense much better. Also better and faster skater and better shot. Dahlin has unreal vision though

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Dahlin wouldn't get Klingberg moved off the top PP unit either.

So this is a Dalhin vs Klingberg thread now?

 

[Kcb12345]

So this is a Dalhin vs Klingberg thread now?

Only if you make it one? I'm just giving a reason as to why Heiskanen doesn't see top PP time consistently

 

[TheTwelfth]

People are just looking at points Look who is playing PK and who is not. Miro can defense much better. Also better and faster skater and better shot. Dahlin has unreal vision though

It is like you cant even read what others write.

 

[ElGuapo]

Dahlin having more points and better analytics last year is a cogent statement in regards to the 3 game argument.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Maybe I'm just too stoopit.

 

[thewall]

who cares? I'm sure both clubs and fanbase are happy with who they have!

 

[Snippit]

I genuinely think Dahlin is going to be the best defence man in the league sooner than later, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if Heiskanen ended up just as good.

 

[Frank Drebin]

who cares? I'm sure both clubs and fanbase are happy with who they have!

Yep. Would love to have either but if forced to pick I think I'd have to go with Dahlin

 

[aufheben]

Not the only reason, but a major one. Plus people being hiveminded.

Dallas played 13 playoff games. How many did Buffalo play?