Dahlin vs Heiskanen

Kcb12345

Registered User
Jun 6, 2017
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Highly highly debatable Heiskanen has been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.

This season it's really not debatable at all yet. Strength of the team was irrelevant through the first 10 games considering how awful Dallas started out and how good the Sabres were and Heiskanen was still better.
 

Zub

Registered User
Nov 7, 2015
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Helsinki
Highly highly debatable Heiskanen has been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.

Did you even read what i said? Heiskanen's team started very poorly the first 10 or so games but he still performed just as good and when others started to play better he started getting rewarded more, your'e the silly one with your sad try of discrediting the kid.
 

karhukissa

Registered User
Apr 2, 2019
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Highly highly debatable Heiskanen has been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.
I mean this is a hockey board, where should you have debates if not here? And both sides are giving valid arguments. What has your contribution been to this topic?
 

ijuka

Registered User
May 14, 2016
22,524
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Highly highly debatable Heiskanen has been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.
First of all, it's not even debatable if we're talking about this season. Second, Buffalo's record isn't even that much better. To start the season, Buffalo was much better while Dallas was terrible, and now it's the opposite. There, however, are significant differences when it comes down to which of the two actually was more influential to their team's success. Dahlin received significant criticism for his play, especially defensively, and he's #4 on the team for ice time among defensemen. Taking the immense PP time into account, that means that he's getting some massively sheltered 5v5 minutes.

On the other hand, Heiskanen is leading his team in ice time by far. In addition to which, he also ranks #2 on the entire team, that you consider oh so good, in terms of point production - two points behind Seguin. Almost all his points are outside of PP as well, while majority of Dahlin's are on PP. Heiskanen also leads his entire team in plus / minus.

If you think it's "highly debatable" that Heiskanen's been better this season, then you have some very curious data that you're using to back that argument up.
 

karhukissa

Registered User
Apr 2, 2019
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2,451
First of all, it's not even debatable if we're talking about this season. Second, Buffalo's record isn't even that much better. To start the season, Buffalo was much better while Dallas was terrible, and now it's the opposite. There, however, are significant differences when it comes down to which of the two actually was more influential to their team's success. Dahlin received significant criticism for his play, especially defensively, and he's #4 on the team for ice time among defensemen. Taking the immense PP time into account, that means that he's getting some massively sheltered 5v5 minutes.

On the other hand, Heiskanen is leading his team in ice time by far. In addition to which, he also ranks #2 on the entire team, that you consider oh so good, in terms of point production - two points behind Seguin. Almost all his points are outside of PP as well, while majority of Dahlin's are on PP. Heiskanen also leads his entire team in plus / minus.

If you think it's "highly debatable" that Heiskanen's been better this season, then you have some very curious data that you're using to back that argument up.
Here are some brutal facts. Bias?
 

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,343
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Dallas started very bad and Sabres very good, and Miro still racked up ponits and goals and +/- 5+ or something, and just now the forwards have started scoring, so he'll be scoring even more. But nice try discrediting!
Except Dahlin can't do shit when they aren't on the PP because the D are literally coached to play on the point 90% of the time unless we desperately need a goal so none of his creativity on offense that was used last year can be used at even strength. He also doesn't get the most time with the only working line on the Sabres.....every time he tries to do a risky play he's worried about getting benched because for some reason RK has him on a short leash. Its also not his fault the Sabres couldn't hit an empty net if they wanted to.
 
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FinPanda

Team Finland 2022 WHC champions
Mar 13, 2014
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I know only one Swedish poster who constantly bashes Finns down every chance he gets. Every other Swedish poster is fine.

Dahlin will be better in the future, but at the moment its debatable.
 

flying v 604

Registered User
Sep 4, 2014
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Answer: Makar.

And I absolutely love both Heiskanen and Makar, so not going to debate which one is better right now and which one will be better in the long run. They are both absolutely amazing and they will be the best defencemen in the league for ages and they will be fiercely challenged by Hughes and Dahlin for the best defenceman award in the future.

But those people were wrong who thought that Dahlin was head and shoulders better and more talented than these other mentioned top class young defencemen. He is for sure very talented, but nothing makes him clearly a better young talent than Makar or Heiskanen, or even Hughes.
I think Hughes Makar and Miro are the top 3 going forward. I always thought of Rasmus as a bit overrated and was roasted for prefering Hughes, but looking at how good Q has been defensively on a team that has to many breakdowns at forward that lead to sustained pressure yet when he's on the ice the puck seems to be in the other end a lot more.
 

Kaako Kappo

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Oct 12, 2016
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I know only one Swedish poster who constantly bashes Finns down every chance he gets. Every other Swedish poster is fine.

Dahlin will be better in the future, but at the moment its debatable.
How would you know which one is going to be better in the future? Got a crystal ball hidden somewhere?
 

ZEBROA

Registered User
Dec 21, 2017
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Dont know , but i hope Dahlin becomes the best. Leave our D alone Finland you got better forwards.
 

BB88

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
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Highly highly debatable Heiskanenhas been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.

Dahlin reminds so much of Ekblad.
His actual game getting boosted so much by his draft hype.

Not a chance in Hell Dahlin should be in the top5 for Norris talk currently.
 

ijuka

Registered User
May 14, 2016
22,524
15,189
How would you know which one is going to be better in the future? Got a crystal ball hidden somewhere?
He was drafted earlier and had more pre-draft hype, so we should ignore everything happening on the ice as well as all the player's tools, and just go by pre-draft predictions instead.
 
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Unspecified

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Apr 29, 2015
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I know only one Swedish poster who constantly bashes Finns down every chance he gets. Every other Swedish poster is fine.

Dahlin will be better in the future, but at the moment its debatable.
Give your head a shake because you have no f***ing clue is going to be better in the future. However, if the past+present dictates the future then it points to Miro but it could be Dahlin.
 

FinPanda

Team Finland 2022 WHC champions
Mar 13, 2014
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Give your head a shake because you have no ****ing clue is going to be better in the future. However, if the past+present dictates the future then it points to Miro but it could be Dahlin.
How would you know which one is going to be better in the future? Got a crystal ball hidden somewhere?
I don't know and I definitely won't complain if Heiskanen is better. Sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying, I didn't mean it mean it is what definitely happens.

I love Heiskanen lol. I try not to be biased, sorry about that.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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No no my friend what you are doing isn't working so stop trying yourself, that poll litterally is meaningless in this argument, because it's like others here have told you, a poll of potential opinions, not on who's better right now, which is the argument clearly.

Also there are alot of hockey experts and journalists that are mentioning him quite alot on being a top 10 and some even say top 5 D man league wide currently. And yet have i heard anyone legit from the industry claim that Dahlin would be even close to that. Also last season NHL had Miro in a list of to 20 D at 16th place, where Dahlin was nowhere on that list. But i guess your the biggest expert there is here so what do they know am i right?

I'm still waiting for you to back up these claims that I've criticized Heiskanen. You claimed I said this. I asked you to back up these statements, and you clammed up.
 

Zub

Registered User
Nov 7, 2015
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Helsinki
I'm still waiting for you to back up these claims that I've criticized Heiskanen. You claimed I said this. I asked you to back up these statements, and you clammed up.

Maybe it's abit of a misunderstanding as i earlier have said. But you do make it sound like you dislike him, and maybe you are in denial subconciously.
 

Arselona

Registered User
Nov 9, 2007
586
274
Heiskanen has progressed very nicely. I hope he can keep it up. I like the idea of Finnish Niedermayer.

Dahlin will get there. His tools are just too good. Hedman took some time to figure it out as well.

This is such a silly argument.
 

Unspecified

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Apr 29, 2015
6,117
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Heiskanen has progressed very nicely. I hope he can keep it up. I like the idea of Finnish Niedermayer.

Dahlin will get there. His tools are just too good. Hedman took some time to figure it out as well.

This is such a silly argument.
Buffalo is a death punch for promising defensemen. Dahlin has the tools but if he stays in Buffalo i have a feeling he will be the next Tyler Myers.
 

Troy McClure

Suter will never be scratched
Mar 12, 2002
47,851
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South of Heaven
Highly highly debatable Heiskanen has been better overall...and if the strength of team does not matter to you as a factor..well.....that is delusional....you can't be helped.

But you did assist me with one thing. A Heiskanen Dahlin debate is great waste of time. I know now never to bother with one again. Thanks for that.
The strength of team especially matters here because of how much of a contributor Heiskanen is to the Stars being a good team. Heiskanen is a key player in the team's success. He plays a lot of hard minutes in all situations against the opposition's best players. Heiskanen isn't good because the Stars are good as much as the Stars are good because Heiskanen is great.
 
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Zub

Registered User
Nov 7, 2015
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Helsinki
They didn't start playing senior level hockey at the same time. It's like a fifth grader getting outperformed by a fourth grader with you going "But he's only 7 months older".

When did Dahlin outperform Heiskanen this season? Oh wait he hasn't even closely. Stop with the delusions.
 

LuckyBoeser

Registered User
Oct 8, 2018
1,355
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His defensive metrics suggest otherwise, so your eyes are probably decieving you
Posting my reply here since in the other thread it's Marner vs Heiskanen, so I do not want to go off topic in that thread. Anyways...

Curious on what defensive metrics you are referencing that suggests Dahlin is better defensively?


In 2018-19:

RAPM xGA/60: Dahlin -0.051 > 0.022 Heiskanen

RAPM CA/60: Dahlin -0.47 < -2.24 Heiskanen

GAR EVD: Dahlin 2.2 < 2.4 Heiskanen


In 2019-2020:

RAPM xGA/60: Dahlin 0.022 < -0.075 Heiskanen

RAPM CA/60: Dahlin -0.02 < -0.9 Heiskanen

GAR EVD Dahlin -0.5 < 3.9 Heiskanen


Let's both season together 18-20:

RAPM xGA/60: Dahlin -0.029 > -0.012 Dahlin

RAPM CA/60: Dahlin -0.33 < -1.77 Heiskanen

GAR EVD: Dahlin 1.7 < 6.3 Heiskanen


So from this data I don't think the metrics suggests Dahlin is better defensively. It seems Heiskanen is better at limiting chances for his team than Dahlin over the course of their career. Even with Dallas being strong defensively at even strength potentially benefiting Miro, the gap is large enough for me to view Heiskanen as the better defensive player.

You keep making these claims that metrics suggests Dahlin as the better defensive player, but you never back up your statement with any metrics. Now may you present the analytics that supposedly paints Dahlin as the better defensive player?
 
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