Dahlin vs Heiskanen

[Panthaz89]

If you go through my post history, you will see that I am opposing nothing - except homers.

We are not talking about projections or wet dreams. We are talking about the present situation and anyone can see that currently Heiskanen is better in several things. An opinion claiming otherwise means the person indeed is talking out of his/her behind.

Disclaimer:
Several does not mean all things. Currently means that this can also change.

It isn't being a homer to suggest a D-man who just outscored him last year is better or not all that different but usage is key. Its kind of like Tarasenko few years ago not really on the same page with the coach. Also ignoring Dahlin's point productivity is just blind at this point even in a game where he didn't get to play in the 3rd he got an assist off a takeaway in his own zone and didn't really have any bad plays the entire game. Its actually pretty easy to laugh at opinions over a short game sample size when most agreed that Dahlin had a better year last year and it was his draft year too. Dahlin could explode and have a couple big games.

 

[tellermine]

Seen both quite mutch and it was clear to me even at last season that Heiskanen is better.

But is he in few years who knows?

This season Heiskanen uses more of his speed to support attack. Though he himself said he has to limit it a little as he cant take to mutch risks.

Dahlin seems to try to hard. Lost his confidence.
Little simpler plays at own end etc. and it all good.

So yes. Miro is better but real answers come in a few years

 

[Zub]

The propaganda of the Finn's and Stars fans needs to be called out.

Let's get a few things straight.

Dahlin is not struggling right now. He's been very solid the last few games. Those with an anti-Dahlin agenda said he didn't score enough points at ES. He had one last game. They said he wasn't playing well defensively. He made a really nice defensive play that helped lead to a goal. He's been good defensively the last few games. Anyone making a meal over a 19 year old struggling defensively for around 10 games doesn't realize that all players in the league have bad stretches. Either you overreact when all of them have a bad stretch or you don't overreact. Trying to purposely create an issue when Dahlin does, but not the other big defensive names in the league is very transparent. Dahlin is the standard, and everyone is trying to criticize him at any chance they get to prop up their favorites. In this instance, Heiskanen.

As for his minutes, we have learned constantly through the years that bad NHL coaches minutes distribution should not factor into any assessment of their play. Anyone who is rational about Dahlin would agree that his minutes should go up from year 1 to 2, and the Sabres don't have the quality of players ahead of him to keep his minutes low. Dahlin has always been good defensively. There's no reason he shouldn't be given a bigger defensive role, especially considering the Sabres don't have a bunch of great defensive defensemen he'd have to compete with for a role. Don't blame Dahlin because he's being used incorrectly. That doesn't make him worse. That means his team has a bad coach.

I for one am not discrediting Dahlin for being good by any means, but the fact is still that Heiskanen is performing better OA right now, is it really that hard to admit that you was wrong? You clearly don't like Heiskanen and nobodys claiming you hate him neither. Stop acting like you know so much when 80% of what your saying is just imaginary like many others here, smh. No hard feelings though. But man it seems like your talking out your own guesses all the time on this forum.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's not appeal to authority, lol. That'd be if I was using that as my sole argument. Instead, I'm using my eyes to determine he's been bad defensively. That's support for my observations.

I'm struggling to find where your opinion is stated in your reply to me.

You said

That must be why his coach benched him for the 3rd period this past game.

Seriously, that's just a laughable statement.

The first sentence is only an appeal to authority. It contains none of your opinion.

The second sentence is your assertion that what I said was a laughable statement with no description. Do you want me to reply to something with no description or the part thats descriptive? If it's the former, the thing I'd be replying to is an appeal to authority. How am I supposed to reply to what you said was a laughable statement? You didn't even explain why its laughable.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If you go through my post history, you will see that I am opposing nothing - except homers.

We are not talking about projections or wet dreams. We are talking about the present situation and anyone can see that currently Heiskanen is better in several things. An opinion claiming otherwise means the person indeed is talking out of his/her behind.

Disclaimer:
Several does not mean all things. Currently means that this can also change.

You are muddying the waters. No one argued against saying that Heiskanen is better in certain areas of the game. Most of the discussion in this thread is not even about which player is better. There's almost nothing being said that is negative against Heiskanen. Most of the posts in this thread are from people with an anti-Dahlin agenda that think it's their job to spread anti-Dahlin propaganda because they think that props up Heiskanen.

And while I'm at it, I'll address your ridiculous argument that your opinion is the only acceptable one. Trying to characterize all opposing opinions as not allowed is ridiculous. You well know that you aren't going to get 100% consensus or close to 100% consensus on anything that involves subjects of a similar caliber.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Well there also isn't that much to criticize him for. He is just playing so well right now.

Also it isn't just Star fans or Finnish people criticizing Dahlin, Sabres fans themself have done it and for a reason.

Also you keep bringing up how he should be played more defensively, but he currently isn't Buffalos best defensive D. You are saying he should be giving role and minutes he currently doesn't deserve and at the same time you are on other prospect threads saying how prospect X needs to earn his minutes etc. It is pretty obvious you like Dahlin and you let it cloud your judgement.

This is exactly what I mean. This is straight up propaganda.

To recap, your country's player earns no criticism because he's so great but the player from the rival country whose objectively of a similar or higher caliber should be criticized a lot. Your proof is that since an opposing fan base criticizes their player at times, that validates your opinion. I'd hope no one is fooled by this.

Which Buffalo defensemen are better defensively? Dahlin has his whole career been regarded as good defensively. Now you and a few of your cohorts less than 20 games into the season have decided he sucks defensively. Do you think prior to the season Buffalo would find a lot of success decreasing the minutes of the only defensemen on their team with top caliber defensive potential? If you want to be as successful as possible, do you think that'll be achieved playing your clear highest potential defensive defensemen and arguably already best defensive defensemen less minutes with less defensive responsibility? Or are you another that has decided an appeal to authority and a small sample size of games justifies that Dahlin should be sent to a dungeon because he's Swedish?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I for one am not discrediting Dahlin for being good by any means, but the fact is still that Heiskanen is performing better OA right now, is it really that hard to admit that you was wrong? You clearly don't like Heiskanen and nobodys claiming you hate him neither. Stop acting like you know so much when 80% of what your saying is just imaginary like many others here, smh. No hard feelings though. But man it seems like your talking out your own guesses all the time on this forum.

First of all, if you are not discrediting Dahlin, then what I said doesn't apply to you. I never quoted you or tagged you specifically. I don't know if what you are saying is correct, but I don't care enough to check. If you believe you haven't been discrediting Dahlin, then you shouldn't believe I was referring to you or you need to reply to that.

However, let's not get anything mixed up about my opinion. You are trying to claim I said things that I didn't say. If you are going to claim I dislike Heiskanen, you are going to need to provide some proof for your assertion. I'll wait for you to provide that, but you are going to struggle finding any proof.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Every now and then Pavel revisits this thread to wag his finger at Heiskanen backers, it seems.

It's hardly blasphemous to suggest Miro is off to the better start this season. I reckon even the most loyal Sabres fan could concede that.

Nothing against Dahlin who isnt exactly ****ting the bed or in the midst of a sophomore slump or anything. He's been fine. Heiskanen has just been better.....so far.

And just to keep him in the discussion, Makar has arguably been better than both of them.

Fine time to appreciate young defensive stars on the back end, that's all this is.

I don't revisit this thread. I post in this thread when I see fit. I have my opinion as to this topic, as do most people. I've stated it. I don't have particularly strong opinions on either player that are out of the ordinary of most fans. I think it's funny how a lot of people are changing opinions based on 15 games of hockey, but they are entitled to do what they like. I'm not responding to those people because I don't feel the need to. I've said before on multiple topics on this website that you shouldn't be changing your opinion based off a small sample size if you have a larger sample to judge on. I'm not going to repeat myself on that in every thread on this website.

However, I am not going to read this anti-Dahlin propaganda from certain sub-sections that have an agenda against Dahlin and let it stand without being challenged. Some of it is utterly ridiculous. You'd think the guy was some AHL goon that is lucky to have a spot in the league with the way certain people talk about him. And it's clear what their intentions are.

 

[ijuka]

I'm struggling to find where your opinion is stated in your reply to me.

You said



The first sentence is only an appeal to authority. It contains none of your opinion.

The second sentence is your assertion that what I said was a laughable statement with no description. Do you want me to reply to something with no description or the part thats descriptive? If it's the former, the thing I'd be replying to is an appeal to authority. How am I supposed to reply to what you said was a laughable statement? You didn't even explain why its laughable.

This past friday, I replied to a post of yours that I thought Dahlin's defensive play was an issue. That clearly was my opinion. I'm not expected to have to state my opinion on Dahlin in full in every single post. And to be frank, nothing about my post even looked like I was "making an appeal to authority". It's a complete misuse of the logical fallacy.

Now, as for "what about your post was laughable", I'm not entirely sure if the forum staff allows me to answer this genuine question of yours. So you're unfortunately on your own until my warning timer expires.

 

[Kcb12345]

This is exactly what I mean. This is straight up propaganda.

To recap, your country's player earns no criticism because he's so great but the player from the rival country whose objectively of a similar or higher caliber should be criticized a lot. Your proof is that since an opposing fan base criticizes their player at times, that validates your opinion. I'd hope no one is fooled by this.

Which Buffalo defensemen are better defensively? Dahlin has his whole career been regarded as good defensively. Now you and a few of your cohorts less than 20 games into the season have decided he sucks defensively. Do you think prior to the season Buffalo would find a lot of success decreasing the minutes of the only defensemen on their team with top caliber defensive potential? If you want to be as successful as possible, do you think that'll be achieved playing your clear highest potential defensive defensemen and arguably already best defensive defensemen less minutes with less defensive responsibility? Or are you another that has decided an appeal to authority and a small sample size of games justifies that Dahlin should be sent to a dungeon because he's Swedish?

Would you like me to share 40+ screenshots of Sabres fans opinion on Dahlin's play this season? Warning: it's not pretty

You're in such disbelief about this that you just instantly deny all claims that he is struggling and put it off as someones "agenda" to just put him down as a player. You're the only one making out to be that because you don't know what to say Not even sure you watch the Sabres play very often and yet you're so determined to fight this

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Would you like me to share 40+ screenshots of Sabres fans opinion on Dahlin's play this season? Warning: it's not pretty

You're in such disbelief about this that you just instantly deny all claims that he is struggling and put it off as someones "agenda" to just put him down as a player. You're the only one making out to be that because you don't know what to say Not even sure you watch the Sabres play very often and yet you're so determined to fight this

Should see what some of them say about Eichel

 

[Panthaz89]

Should see what some of them say about Eichel

Not elite speed, average passer, lazy, should take shots 24/7 etc etc etc

 

[Kiekura]

Now you and a few of your cohorts less than 20 games into the season have decided he sucks defensively.

Because we are talking about current season and these 20 games. All this time we have been talking how Heiskanen has been better than him this season. Last season Dahlin was better and he can still be better than Heiskanen at the end of this season?

Also even if Dahlin was great defensively last year, he hasn't been this year. Just because he was better last year doesn't mean he should be playing more minutes and defensive role this year, when he hasn't been as good. I am 100% sure he gets more minutes and bigger role when he shows he is able to handle it. Just like every player in every role.

To recap, your country's player earns no criticism because he's so great but the player from the rival country whose objectively of a similar or higher caliber should be criticized a lot. Your proof is that since an opposing fan base criticizes their player at times, that validates your opinion. I'd hope no one is fooled by this.

Why are you bringing country to this? This has nothing to do with Dahlin being swedish and Heiskanen isn't immune to criticism. I just said that currently there actually isn't a lot criticize him for.

 

[Kiekura]

However, I am not going to read this anti-Dahlin propaganda from certain sub-sections that have an agenda against Dahlin and let it stand without being challenged. Some of it is utterly ridiculous. You'd think the guy was some AHL goon that is lucky to have a spot in the league with the way certain people talk about him. And it's clear what their intentions are.

None here is saying or talking about Dahlin being AHL level player. Everyone here knows how freaking skilled he is and there is no such thing as anti-Dahlin propaganda.

Seriously this has only been conversation about Dahlin vs Heiskanen this season and currently Heiskanen is doing better. Thats it and nothing else.

 

[Goldmember]

Makar seems to be better than either one of these little farts.

 

[Zub]

First of all, if you are not discrediting Dahlin, then what I said doesn't apply to you. I never quoted you or tagged you specifically. I don't know if what you are saying is correct, but I don't care enough to check. If you believe you haven't been discrediting Dahlin, then you shouldn't believe I was referring to you or you need to reply to that.

However, let's not get anything mixed up about my opinion. You are trying to claim I said things that I didn't say. If you are going to claim I dislike Heiskanen, you are going to need to provide some proof for your assertion. I'll wait for you to provide that, but you are going to struggle finding any proof.

Ok, i might have misunderstood you abit and sorry for that, and i respekt your opinion nevertheless.

 

[Zub]

Makar seems to be better than either one of these little farts.

Offensively, yes.

 

[Zub]

None here is saying or talking about Dahlin being AHL level player. Everyone here knows how freaking skilled he is and there is no such thing as anti-Dahlin propaganda.

Seriously this has only been conversation about Dahlin vs Heiskanen this season and currently Heiskanen is doing better. Thats it and nothing else.

This.

 

[Goldmember]

Offensively, yes.

Amen bro!

 

[Zub]

Amen bro!

Makar is bonkers on the offence. Miro is also very very good offensively, and his offensive game is a bit different, but i can't deny Makar's skill in the ozone vs Heiskanen. Obv playing with a top 3 C helps with points, so i'd say their close but Makar does have an edge.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Because we are talking about current season and these 20 games. All this time we have been talking how Heiskanen has been better than him this season. Last season Dahlin was better and he can still be better than Heiskanen at the end of this season?

Also even if Dahlin was great defensively last year, he hasn't been this year. Just because he was better last year doesn't mean he should be playing more minutes and defensive role this year, when he hasn't been as good. I am 100% sure he gets more minutes and bigger role when he shows he is able to handle it. Just like every player in every role.

You are making a lot out of a very small sample size. As I already mentioned, Dahlin hasn't even been struggling in recent games. He's been playing good hockey. He had a bad stretch of about 10 games. That happens to every defensemen in the league. And it's fair to discuss that, but the amount its being discussed, the manner its being discussed, and the fact that its still being discussed after the fact is the ridiculous part of it. You are making a lot out of a little. No one has objected to criticism of Dahlin's play, and this is where the argument that "Sabres fans criticize him" loses credibility. Sabres fans criticize him when he doesn't play well. What they don't do is incessantly rag on him, and distort when he plays well because it suits their agenda to do so.

Why are you bringing country to this? This has nothing to do with Dahlin being swedish and Heiskanen isn't immune to criticism. I just said that currently there actually isn't a lot criticize him for.

Because it's transparent. Why are those criticizing him so much disproportionately Finnish or Stars fans?

 

[Zub]

You are making a lot out of a very small sample size. As I already mentioned, Dahlin hasn't even been struggling in recent games. He's been playing good hockey. He had a bad stretch of about 10 games. That happens to every defensemen in the league. And it's fair to discuss that, but the amount its being discussed, the manner its being discussed, and the fact that its still being discussed after the fact is the ridiculous part of it. You are making a lot out of a little. No one has objected to criticism of Dahlin's play, and this is where the argument that "Sabres fans criticize him" loses credibility. Sabres fans criticize him when he doesn't play well. What they don't do is incessantly rag on him, and distort when he plays well because it suits their agenda to do so.



Because it's transparent. Why are those criticizing him so much disproportionately Finnish or Stars fans?

Fact of the matter is that if were to compare them both, with what we have, then you just can't use that as an argument when both have been in the league little over a season. Like it isn't as if Stars fans and Finn's are just going full biased and claiming some fairytale facts, i feel like alot of you Dahlin / Buffalo fans and what not are trying to discredit Miro just because he is really close with Dahlin in many aspects and better in some, worse in a couple. When you compare then right now with factoring everything, Miro sits firmly on top at the moment. Get over it.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Fact of the matter is that if were to compare them both, with what we have, then you just can't use that as an argument when both have been in the league little over a season. Like it isn't as if Stars fans and Finn's are just going full biased and claiming some fairytale facts, i feel like alot of you Dahlin / Buffalo fans and what not are trying to discredit Miro just because he is really close with Dahlin in many aspects and better in some, worse in a couple. When you compare then right now with factoring everything, Miro sits firmly on top at the moment. Get over it.

You keep claiming I'm criticizing Heiskanen. After I asked for proof, you walked back your statement. Now you are saying that I'm criticizing Heiskanen. Which is it?

 

[Snowsii]

You are making a lot out of a very small sample size. As I already mentioned, Dahlin hasn't even been struggling in recent games. He's been playing good hockey. He had a bad stretch of about 10 games. That happens to every defensemen in the league. And it's fair to discuss that, but the amount its being discussed, the manner its being discussed, and the fact that its still being discussed after the fact is the ridiculous part of it. You are making a lot out of a little. No one has objected to criticism of Dahlin's play, and this is where the argument that "Sabres fans criticize him" loses credibility. Sabres fans criticize him when he doesn't play well. What they don't do is incessantly rag on him, and distort when he plays well because it suits their agenda to do so.



Because it's transparent. Why are those criticizing him so much disproportionately Finnish or Stars fans?

You might want to check his adv.stats again

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You might want to check his adv.stats again

I didn’t even check it once. Why would I?

But thanks for explaining away your evidence as purely about advanced stats.