Crosby vs McDavid (At Age 22)

[Sidney the Kidney]

He had help in his best scoring season which was 2007.

And when you say stuff like, " Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career" that's just factually incorrect.

His best scoring season was 2006-07, which isn't tracked by any advanced stats websites. So I'm not sure how you can conclude with certainty that he had help that year. The year you're referencing with 47% of his shifts with Malkin is the following year, when Crosby only played 53 games or whatever due to his high ankle sprain.

As for my comment about Guentzel, it's clearly meant that this is the first time Crosby's had a regular linemate with that kind of skill. Again, Malkin wasn't a regular linemate and Hossa being there for like 14 games isn't exactly a huge sample size.

 

[Son Goku]

I'm curious how good McDavid would be if he was mentored by Lemieux and got to play with Malkin, Staal and Letang

Yeah he only got to have Bobby Orr, poor Mcdavid.

 

[FinProspects]

Its a wash, no matter how you slice it. Connor takes the regular season though, but not by a large margin. But post season does matter as well, altough Edm sucks and its not Connors fault.

In playoffs:
Sid by the 4th year had 49games and 63 points.
Connor has 13 games and 9 points.

So that evens out the margin Connor has in reg season.

 

[Randyne]

His best scoring season was 2006-07, which isn't tracked by any advanced stats websites. So I'm not sure how you can conclude with certainty that he had help that year.

Sidney Crosby 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com
38P out of 120 were from Malkin (~32%)

 

[daver]

Malkin was Crosby's most common linemate at even strength in 07/08 besides Colby Armstrong.

Which was Crosby's third year, and Malkin's second.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

Not sure what it looked like in 06/07 since the data only goes back as far as 07/08.

Perhaps Malkin spent a bunch of time with Crosby in his rookie season as well as he only had 700 faceoffs despite playing 19 minutes per game.

In 07/08 Crosby spent nearly half of his 5on5 with Malkin. Even in 08/09 Crosby played about one third of his 5on5 with Malkin.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

So Crosby certainly didn't suffer for linemates early in his career.

He was with Recchi the most in 06/07. He and Recchi had 22 point shares at ES (out of 59 total ES points), 13 with Malkin. In 07/08, he had 18 ES point shares with Malkin (out of total of 44). He did not spend any significant time with Malkin in 06/07 at ES.

In 05/06, he had zero point shares with Malkin and had the 2nd best scoring finish by an 18 year old in NHL history and beat the 2nd best Pen in points by 76%.

There is zero reason to think that his numbers would be any different with different teammates.

 

[daver]

Sidney Crosby 2006-07 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com
38P out of 120 were from Malkin (~32%)

I just showed that Malkin did not play a significant amount of time with Crosby at ES, or wasn't very productive if he did.

Malkin was 18th in scoring that year, he had 40 PP points to Crosby's 66 PP points. Crosby was clearly the superior offensive player that year vs. a rookie Malkin.

This year, Draisatl is 12th in scoring and has been on 50% of McDavid's goals. In 16/17 the numbers are about the same after Draisatl started playing with McDavid in November. Drai finished 8th in scoring that year. Over those two seasons, McDavid has 50 PP points and Drai has 46.

Like Crosby in 06/07, McDavid is the clearly superior offenisive player but Draisatl > rookie Malkin.

And I know we aren't allowed to talk about the playoffs because it triggers people but Crosby was the best playoff scorer and playoff ES scorer from 08 to 09 and Malkin was in on only 4 of Crosby's 34 ES points.

IMO, there is no reason to try to spin their numbers over these time periods. They both produce regardless.

 

[NextYear67]

Cup > anything else

 

[Randyne]

Draisatl > rookie Malkin.

Of course not. Rookie Malkin P/GP = 1.09 almost two times better than Drai in 16/17 (all Draisaitl P/GPs = 0.19;0.44;0.59;0.58;0.67)

Crosby was the best playoff scorer

Goalscorer? 08-09 playoffs: Malkin 24G > Sid 21G. Pointscorer? Malkin 58P = Sid 58 P

 

[daver]

Of course not. Rookie Malkin P/GP = 1.09 almost two times better than Drai in 16/17 (all Draisaitl P/GPs = 0.19;0.44;0.59;0.58;0.67)

???? Draisatl was 8th in scoring in 16/17. His PPG was 0.94 (9th best among the Top 50 scorers in the league).

And why are trying to compare PPGs from different seasons ten years apart? Should we compare Crosby's 1.52 PPG in 06/07 to McDavid's best of 1.33?

 

[daver]

Goalscorer? 08-09 playoffs: Malkin 24G > Sid 21G. Pointscorer? Malkin 58P = Sid 58 P

Why not include 07?

Crosby 24 goals - 63 P

Malkin 24 goals - 62 P

 

[Randyne]

???? Draisatl was 8th in scoring in 16/17. His PPG was 0.94 (9th best among the Top 50 scorers in the league).
And why are trying to comparing PPGs from different seasons ten years apart? Should we compare Crosby's 1.52 PPG in 06/07 to McDavid's best of 1.33?

Sorry. Yes it's 0.94. Missed column in Excel (APG instead PPG).
Still Malkin (rookie or not) the best player in the league outside OV/Sid. First three years Calder, Conn Smythe, AR. Draisaitl showed nothing compared to him.

'Why not include 07?' From Quote:

Crosby was the best playoff scorer and playoff ES scorer from 08 to 09

 

[daver]

Sorry. Yes it's 0.94. Missed column in Excel (APG instead PPG).
Still Malkin (rookie or not) the best player in the league outside OV/Sid. First three years Calder, Conn Smythe, AR. Draisaitl showed nothing compared to him.

Malkin was not the 3rd best player in the league in 06/07. There is no way you can make that claim. What he did after that doesn't make him magically better in 06/07. If he was 3rd best, he should have had the 3rd best, or even the 2nd best point total that year.

And anyways, he was the 3rd or 4th linemate for Crosby that year unlike Draisaitl who has been on McDavid's line much more than any other player.

You are throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

 

[Randyne]

Malkin was not the 3rd best player in the league in 06/07. There is no way you can make that claim. What he did after that doesn't make him magically better in 06/07.

The opposite, he did the best what he could do in the rookie year beating Kopitar, Staal and earning Calder. What he did after is only evidence of his elite skills.
By the way his rookie PPG is still the 3d best rookie result after OV and Sid (2005-now).

 

[daver]

The opposite, he did the best what he could do in the rookie year beating Kopitar, Staal and earning Calder. What he did after is only evidence of his elite skills. By the way his rookie PPG still the 3d best rookie result after OV and Sid (2005-now).

All of this means squat. He was 18th in scoring while playing a lot less time at ES with Crosby than Draisaitl has with McDavid while being a Top Ten point producer.

Given all that Crosby did in his rookie year, in the playofs, and after 2009, it is comical to look back and think that his point totals were inflated due to Malkin.

 

[Randyne]

Given all that Crosby did in his rookie year, in the playofs, and after 2009, it is comical to look back and think that his point totals were inflated due to Malkin.

38P out of 120P in 75 GP it's additional 0.51 points per game. It's not comical at all. 14 games without that support and it's minus 7 points and Art Ross goes to Thornton. It means if there was a player on 4/5 as good as Malkin, Sid would lost his first AR.

 

[daver]

38P out of 120P in 75 GP it's additional 0.51 points per game. It's not comical at all. 14 games without that support and it's minus 7 points and Art Ross goes to Thornton. It means if there was a player on 4/5 as good as Malkin, Sid would lost his first AR.

You are throwing out baseless speculation, and only at Crosby, for some strange reason.

Crosby has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he produces regardless of who is on his line, on his team and when used more defensively than other Cs on the team. You have provided zero evidence to make this disputable.

 

[bathdog]

The opposite, he did the best what he could do in the rookie year beating Kopitar, Staal and earning Calder. What he did after is only evidence of his elite skills.
By the way his rookie PPG is still the 3d best rookie result after OV and Sid (2005-now).

There is a huge difference between being the 3rd best rookie over a short span and the 3rd best player in the entire league. He was great for being a rookie though.

 

[Bank Shot]

I just showed that Malkin did not play a significant amount of time with Crosby at ES, or wasn't very productive if he did.

What about o7-08, and 08-09?

I mean you go out of your way to cast doubt on how much time Malkin played with Crosby in 06/07 when the correct response would be to retract any statements about Crosby never getting to play with good players.

It's very clear in black in white that Crosby had Malkin as a linemate a substantial amount of the time early in his career.

So any edge to McDavid over Crosby can't be answered with Draisatil.

 

[daver]

What about o7-08, and 08-09?

I mean you go out of your way to cast doubt on how much time Malkin played with Crosby in 06/07 when the correct response would be to retract any statements about Crosby never getting to play with good players.

It's very clear in black in white that Crosby had Malkin as a linemate a substantial amount of the time early in his career.

So any edge to McDavid over Crosby can't be answered with Draisatil.

I say let their numbers speak for themselves. Neither need any qualification of who played with who.

I hate when baseless speculation (e.g. if Malkin wasn't on the Pens) is used as an argument. It is pointless.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Cup > anything else

Williams>McDavid
Draper>McDavid
Kunitz>McDavid

 

[Addison Rae]

Cup > anything else

Tom Wilson > Auston Matthews

 

[NextYear67]

Its incredible how clueless people can be in how much the cup matters when comparing similar players. Definitely not hockey guys nor understand the game

 

[Randyne]

You are throwing out baseless speculation, and only at Crosby, for some strange reason.
Crosby has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he produces regardless of who is on his line, on his team and when used more defensively than other Cs on the team. You have provided zero evidence to make this disputable.

In general more points players generates with their linemates. It's a common sense. Exception when elite players contributes to players from other lines on PPs and some EV shifts.
Since Malkin appearance first six seasons Crosby generated more points with player from other line (Malkin).
At that span Crosby's 189 points out of 507 (37.3%) were from Malkin in 329 games played together with Crosby. It's 0.57 PPG...

Crosby's Top 10 contributors:

2006-07	P	2007-08	P	2008-09	P	2009-10	P	2010-11	P	2011-12	P
Mark Recchi	44	Evgeni Malkin	32	Evgeni Malkin	53	Evgeni Malkin (66GP out of 81)	30	Evgeni Malkin (36GP out of 41)	22	Evgeni Malkin	14
Evgeni Malkin (75GP out of 79)	38	Sergei Gonchar	27	Kris Letang	15	Bill Guerin	26	Chris Kunitz	21	Pascal Dupuis	12
Sergei Gonchar	35	Colby Armstrong	16	Miroslav Satan	14	Sergei Gonchar	23	Kris Letang	20	Chris Kunitz	9
Ryan Whitney	25	Ryan Whitney	12	Petr Sykora	13	Alex Goligoski	18	Pascal Dupuis	12	Kris Letang	6
Ryan Malone	19	Ryan Malone	9	Pascal Dupuis	12	Pascal Dupuis	15	Alex Goligoski	11	James Neal	5
Colby Armstrong	11	Petr Sykora	8	Chris Kunitz	10	Chris Kunitz	14	Brooks Orpik	6	Matt Cooke	5
Michel Ouellet	11	Kris Letang	5	Sergei Gonchar	8	Kris Letang	11	Matt Cooke	5	Steve Sullivan	5
Erik Christensen	7	Mark Recchi	4	Bill Guerin	7	Brooks Orpik	9	Tyler Kennedy	5	Tyler Kennedy	4
Rob Scuderi	7	Darryl Sydor	3	Ryan Whitney	7	Mark Eaton	8	Paul Martin	4	Deryk Engelland	3
Josef Melichar	6	Marian Hossa	3	Alex Goligoski	6	Ruslan Fedotenko	8	Deryk Engelland	3	Paul Martin	3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The rest six seasons Malkin missed 92 games with Crosby and wasn't productive with him (age? selfishness?).
His PPG with Crosby dropped from 0.57 to 0.30. And Crosby's PPG dropped from 1.44 to 1.18

Overall Crosby's top 10 contributors:

Evgeni Malkin	300
Kris Letang	197
Chris Kunitz	186
Sergei Gonchar	116
Pascal Dupuis	93
Patric Hornqvist	85
Mark Recchi	68
Phil Kessel	68
Jake Guentzel	64
Ryan Whitney	56

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[crosby87]

mcdavid barely beat a 30 years old crosby (with a concussion at the start of the season). doesn't stand a chance vs 20 years old crosby

 

[daver]

In general more points players generates with their linemates. It's a common sense. Exception when elite players contributes to players from other lines on PPs and some EV shifts.
Since Malkin appearance first six seasons Crosby generated more points with player from other line (Malkin).
At that span Crosby's 189 points out of 507 (37.3%) were from Malkin in 329 games played together with Crosby. It's 0.57 PPG...

Crosby's Top 10 contributors:

2006-07	P	2007-08	P	2008-09	P	2009-10	P	2010-11	P	2011-12	P
Mark Recchi	44	Evgeni Malkin	32	Evgeni Malkin	53	Evgeni Malkin (66GP out of 81)	30	Evgeni Malkin (36GP out of 41)	22	Evgeni Malkin	14
Evgeni Malkin (75GP out of 79)	38	Sergei Gonchar	27	Kris Letang	15	Bill Guerin	26	Chris Kunitz	21	Pascal Dupuis	12
Sergei Gonchar	35	Colby Armstrong	16	Miroslav Satan	14	Sergei Gonchar	23	Kris Letang	20	Chris Kunitz	9
Ryan Whitney	25	Ryan Whitney	12	Petr Sykora	13	Alex Goligoski	18	Pascal Dupuis	12	Kris Letang	6
Ryan Malone	19	Ryan Malone	9	Pascal Dupuis	12	Pascal Dupuis	15	Alex Goligoski	11	James Neal	5
Colby Armstrong	11	Petr Sykora	8	Chris Kunitz	10	Chris Kunitz	14	Brooks Orpik	6	Matt Cooke	5
Michel Ouellet	11	Kris Letang	5	Sergei Gonchar	8	Kris Letang	11	Matt Cooke	5	Steve Sullivan	5
Erik Christensen	7	Mark Recchi	4	Bill Guerin	7	Brooks Orpik	9	Tyler Kennedy	5	Tyler Kennedy	4
Rob Scuderi	7	Darryl Sydor	3	Ryan Whitney	7	Mark Eaton	8	Paul Martin	4	Deryk Engelland	3
Josef Melichar	6	Marian Hossa	3	Alex Goligoski	6	Ruslan Fedotenko	8	Deryk Engelland	3	Paul Martin	3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The rest six seasons Malkin missed 92 games with Crosby and wasn't productive with him (age? selfishness?).
His PPG with Crosby dropped from 0.57 to 0.30. And Crosby's PPG dropped from 1.44 to 1.18

Overall Crosby's top 10 contributors:

Evgeni Malkin	300
Kris Letang	197
Chris Kunitz	186
Sergei Gonchar	116
Pascal Dupuis	93
Patric Hornqvist	85
Mark Recchi	68
Phil Kessel	68
Jake Guentzel	64
Ryan Whitney	56

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

All this shows is that Malkin is a great player in comparison to the others. No surprise here. Doesn't mean that Crosby's numbers were inflated unless you want to make the exact same argument for Draisatl and McDavid.

But the all-time great players produce regardless. When Malkin has underperformed or been injured, it did not affect Crosby's production one bit, in fact it got better. Wayne, Mario, Jagr all showed the same ability to produce. They certainly increased the production of players on their lines but it did not lead to their individual numbers going up.

So unless you have some evidence that Crosby's numbers were not as good when Malkin was out or under performing, you are making a baseless claim.

There is actually a better argument that his numbers would have been better if Malkin wasn't there.