Crosby vs McDavid (At Age 22)

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not even saying Crosby would out-produce McDavid or potentially win 3 straight scoring titles if he had a linemate as good as Draisaitl. Even said as much in my very first post on the subject.

I'm simply saying that it's hard to say what kind of numbers (individual, not team success) Crosby would have if he had someone as good as Draisaitl on his wing at ES his entire career, instead of Malkin on the PP but a bunch of 40 and 50 point guys on his wing at ES.

My main issue is I don't think Crosby's individual totals are impacted by having Malkin on the Pens because the only area he helps is the PP (for Crosby). At ES, Crosby hasn't had much help offensively for the bulk of his career until this season when Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career.

 

[CptPicard]

I say Sid, but Connor is playing in a terrible team. Gotta give him that

 

[Future GOAT]

I'm not even saying Crosby would out-produce McDavid or potentially win 3 straight scoring titles if he had a linemate as good as Draisaitl. Even said as much in my very first post on the subject.

I'm simply saying that it's hard to say what kind of numbers (individual, not team success) Crosby would have if he had someone as good as Draisaitl on his wing at ES his entire career, instead of Malkin on the PP but a bunch of 40 and 50 point guys on his wing at ES.

My main issue is I don't think Crosby's individual totals are impacted by having Malkin on the Pens because the only area he helps is the PP (for Crosby). At ES, Crosby hasn't had much help offensively for the bulk of his career until this season when Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career.

Powerplays contribute to individual totals. McDavid hasn't had Draisaitl on his line his entire career either. Chiasson and Maroon are both worse than anything Crosby had to work with and they both had/are having career years on his wing. Draisaitl's point production goes up 20 to 30 points on McDavid's line. Playoff points are considered individual totals as per those using playoff production to vote against McDavid. Malkin has enabled Crosby to perform better in the playoffs by helping him achieve deeper runs that allow for more points to be scored, and more playoff/Cup opportunities while carrying the load himself at times.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Powerplays contribute to individual totals. McDavid hasn't had Draisaitl on his line his entire career either. Chiasson and Maroon are both worse than anything Crosby had to work with and they both had/are having career years on his wing. Draisaitl's point production goes up 20 to 30 points on McDavid's line. Playoff points are considered individual totals as per those using playoff production to vote against McDavid. Malkin has enabled Crosby to perform better in the playoffs by helping him achieve deeper runs, more playoff/Cup opportunities and carrying the load when need be.

McDavid has the benefit of Draisaitl at both ES and PP, though. Crosby gets the benefit of Malkin only on the PP. I just think you're severely underrating how much having a talented winger at ES can do for a player. It's no coincidence that Crosby's on pace for his best point total in years this year now that Guentzel's actually providing him with some skill on his wing at ES.

Again I'll ask, do you think McDavid's individual totals would be higher than they currently are if you put Malkin at 2C and removed Draisaitl entirely from the Oilers? Not the Oilers' winning record or anything, or deep playoff runs. But McDavid's actual individual points. Do you believe that if McDavid had Malkin at 2C and no Draisaitl on his wing at ES, McDavid's totals would be even better?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid has the benefit of Draisaitl at both ES and PP, though. Crosby gets the benefit of Malkin only on the PP. I just think you're severely underrating how much having a talented winger at ES can do for a player. It's no coincidence that Crosby's on pace for his best point total in years this year now that Guentzel's actually providing him with some skill on his wing at ES.

Again I'll ask, do you think McDavid's individual totals would be higher than they currently are if you put Malkin at 2C and removed Draisaitl entirely from the Oilers? Not the Oilers' winning record or anything, or deep playoff runs. But McDavid's actual individual points. Do you believe that if McDavid had Malkin at 2C and no Draisaitl on his wing at ES, McDavid's totals would be even better?

71 makes the Penguin's PP better, but it's questionable whether Malkin actually improves Crosby's point totals on the PP, since they both touch the puck less and like to operate in the same spot.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

That still has nothing to do with the topic. How many times were the Pens favorites and fell flat?

the pens were favorites and stumbled in the playoffs

the oilers were favorites and ended up being a lottery team

you don't see the difference?

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

“Countless”

You still can’t comprehend that it was a fluke run can you.... I think it’s safe to say that we all underestimated Vegas, but in the end they are doing far better at this moment than the Oilers so your point continues to make less sense.

i mean the betters in vegas, not the team

 

[North Cole]

your example isn't good because between 2 teams one has to be the favorite and the other has to be the underdog

the oilers were favorites in a league of 30 teams

It's a simplified example, not a bad one. It's meant to illustrate that they are only a favourite from a money point of view. We had a good showing and went to game 7 against a seasoned ducks team.

The following year, there was a disproportionate amount of betting on the Oilers, which was not indicative of the strength of their roster. It was because of "hype" from casual/emotional fans.

Vegas exists to make money, whichever way the popular vote swings causes them to adjust odds. Outlier seasons can have a huge influence on this, so it's not a great way of measure the strength of a team.

 

[GreatGonzo]

i mean the betters in vegas, not the team

Favorites don’t alwats tell the whole story no matter what. Just because the Oilers were favorites didn’t mean they were the better overall team. Either way it was a Cinderella run for both of them.

the pens were favorites and stumbled in the playoffs

the oilers were favorites and ended up being a lottery team

you don't see the difference?

I meant how many times were the Pens favorites? A lot more than most teams that’s for sure.

The oilers were a lottery team who had one year where everything went there way. They didn’t make the playoffs years prior, and haven’t years after. Either way, your putting way to much emphasis on money odds and the one year they actually made a good run.

 

[daver]

Noone can honestly look at Crosby's first four years and goes he was a product of Malkin. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he can produce regardless of linemates/teammates and deployment.

 

[NextYear67]

Crosby AINEC. LOL @ thinking McDavid
You play. To Win. The game. 2 of the last 3 Conn Smythe's baby
5th best player all time.

 

[NextYear67]

So you have insight into the real hockey world? Care to share? I did read something interesting not to long ago where Crosby said that McDavid was the best in the world....is that “real” enough?

You started this whole thing by claiming me to be a Flyers fan and a Crosby hater. That’s your only means of defense and your only way of any argument. You have nothing legit to say. Move along before you embarrass yourself.

You already did that lol

 

[NextYear67]

Noone can honestly look at Crosby's first four years and goes he was a product of Malkin. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he can produce regardless of linemates/teammates and deployment.

Yep this

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby AINEC. LOL @ thinking McDavid
You play. To Win. The game. 2 of the last 3 Conn Smythe's baby
5th best player all time.

You clearly forgot this is about their careers up to 22 years of age

Noone can honestly look at Crosby's first four years and goes he was a product of Malkin. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he can produce regardless of linemates/teammates and deployment.

no one is saying he’s a product of Malkin. What a ridiculous straw man.

You already did that lol

your not making any sense and I have no idea why I’m surprised.


Lol.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

That’s a nice twist in the narrative. Crosby had Hossa his first cup run, who is clearly better than Draisaitl. Also, Malkin didn’t need to be on his line to be impactful. He’s the one who won the Smythe and carried Crosby in the finals in ‘09. Whether or not he was on his line doesn’t matter, that’s just a way for you to try to change the goal posts.

But that’s not the argument. Everyone who has voted for Crosby, it’s because of team success. Individually it’s close, but Malkin has had a clear impact on all of the Pens cup runs. Especially their first one. No one is saying Crosby was better because He played with Malkin, only that he had more opportunity to chase the cup because of Malkin and others. Having the 2nd/3rd best player during that time frame is going to be positive no matter what.

Oh Please...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Oh Please...

You know the truth my friend.

 

[Mbraunm]

All things considered it is extremely close. I might give a slight edge to Crosby.

That being stated, McDavid will likely have a higher peak and better, injury-free prime.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'm not even saying Crosby would out-produce McDavid or potentially win 3 straight scoring titles if he had a linemate as good as Draisaitl. Even said as much in my very first post on the subject.

I'm simply saying that it's hard to say what kind of numbers (individual, not team success) Crosby would have if he had someone as good as Draisaitl on his wing at ES his entire career, instead of Malkin on the PP but a bunch of 40 and 50 point guys on his wing at ES.

My main issue is I don't think Crosby's individual totals are impacted by having Malkin on the Pens because the only area he helps is the PP (for Crosby). At ES, Crosby hasn't had much help offensively for the bulk of his career until this season when Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career.

Malkin was Crosby's most common linemate at even strength in 07/08 besides Colby Armstrong.

Which was Crosby's third year, and Malkin's second.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

Not sure what it looked like in 06/07 since the data only goes back as far as 07/08.

Perhaps Malkin spent a bunch of time with Crosby in his rookie season as well as he only had 700 faceoffs despite playing 19 minutes per game.

In 07/08 Crosby spent nearly half of his 5on5 with Malkin. Even in 08/09 Crosby played about one third of his 5on5 with Malkin.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

So Crosby certainly didn't suffer for linemates early in his career.

 

[Addison Rae]

Crosby AINEC. LOL @ thinking McDavid
You play. To Win. The game. 2 of the last 3 Conn Smythe's baby
5th best player all time.

Lol, yup Crosby is better from 18-22 because he won 2 Conn Smythe's in the last 3 years.

Great logic.

 

[DitchMarner]

Malkin was Crosby's most common linemate at even strength in 07/08 besides Colby Armstrong.

Which was Crosby's third year, and Malkin's second.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

Not sure what it looked like in 06/07 since the data only goes back as far as 07/08.

Perhaps Malkin spent a bunch of time with Crosby in his rookie season as well as he only had 700 faceoffs despite playing 19 minutes per game.

So Crosby certainly didn't suffer for linemates early in his career.

Do you know how often Malkin and Crosby player together in '07? IIRC, Malkin played on Crosby's wing that season - I don't know how often he did so.

 

[Randyne]

At 22 Age
B2B 2ARs; 2TLs; 1 Hart >> 1AR; 1TL; 1Hart
In two seasons McDavid won 100% of all Sid's Arts; 67% Teds; 50% Harts.
It's 45% of all Sid's Major Awards in 13 years (5 vs 11)
And all that without of Malkin's calibre support.

 

[Bank Shot]

Do you know how often Malkin and Crosby player together in '07? IIRC, Malkin played on Crosby's wing that season - I don't know how often he did so.

No. The data only starts in 07/08.

I highly doubt Malkin played with Crosby any less than he did in 07/08 though.

They were almost completely separated in 09/10 after playing together about 30% of the time in 08/09.

 

[Bank Shot]

My main issue is I don't think Crosby's individual totals are impacted by having Malkin on the Pens because the only area he helps is the PP (for Crosby). At ES, Crosby hasn't had much help offensively for the bulk of his career until this season when Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career.

Wrong.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Malkin was Crosby's most common linemate at even strength in 07/08 besides Colby Armstrong.

Which was Crosby's third year, and Malkin's second.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

Not sure what it looked like in 06/07 since the data only goes back as far as 07/08.

Perhaps Malkin spent a bunch of time with Crosby in his rookie season as well as he only had 700 faceoffs despite playing 19 minutes per game.

In Malkin's rookie season, he spent a lot of ice time with fellow rookie Jordan Staal. That's the cause of Malkin's low faceoff totals.

In 07/08 Crosby spent nearly half of his 5on5 with Malkin. Even in 08/09 Crosby played about one third of his 5on5 with Malkin.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

So Crosby certainly didn't suffer for linemates early in his career.

Do you understand what "bulk of his career" means? Because you're focusing on literally one season where Crosby didn't even play with Malkin for 50% of his ice time as proof that Crosby's numbers over the BULK of his career were impacted by playing with Malkin.

-Crosby's rookie season goes without saying that he didn't play with Malkin at all since Malkin didn't enter the league until the next year.

-Malkin played a bulk of his games as a rookie on Staal's line, which accounts for his low face off totals. Since there is no data to detail exactly how many of those minutes were with Staal and how many were with Crosby, I'm not sure how you can just assume they were a lot. From my recollection, they weren't as Staal and Malkin was a thing quite often in their rookie years.

Which leaves us with:

-Over the first three year stretch that we have data for these kinds of things (2007-08 to 2009-10), Crosby spent 879:33 at 5on5 with Malkin, but 2152:45 without him (29% with Malkin). This number is skewed by the 2007-08 seasons, as from 2008-09 to 2009-10 he only spent 536:45 with Malkin and 1752:49 away from him (23% with Malkin).

-From 2010-11 to 2013 Crosby spent 248:34 with Malkin, 1186:18 without him (17% with Malkin).

-From 2013-14 to 2015-16 Crosby spent 197:19 with Malkin and 3419:03 without him (5% with Malkin).

-From 2016-17 to this season Crosby spent 39:34 with Malkin and 3054:25 without him (1% with Malkin).

So literally your only "proof" that you provided that Crosby's didn't "suffer for linemates early in his career" was the 2007-08 season where he played with Malkin 47% of his 5on5 ice time (still 53% away from him). Every other recorded season shows Crosby rarely played with Malkin at 5on5.

 

[Bank Shot]

So literally your only "proof" that you provided that Crosby's didn't "suffer for linemates early in his career" was the 2007-08 season where he played with Malkin 47% of his 5on5 ice time (still 53% away from him). Every other recorded season shows Crosby rarely played with Malkin at 5on5.

He had help in his best scoring season which was 2007.

And when you say stuff like, " Guentzel is providing him with arguably the most talent he's had on his line his entire career" that's just factually incorrect.