Crosby vs McDavid (At Age 22)

Who's the More Impressive Player at Age 22?


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FartMilk

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I'll take McDavid. Better EVS player. He would be blowing Crosby's numbers away if he had a half decent PP to work with in Edmonton. Done more with less. He also plays for the biggest dumpster fire in the league, which says a lot considering the league also has Ottawa.

25 GWG already. Crosby had 16 by age 22.

Crosby has been on better teams. No doubt about that. This comparison will take years. Two of the top three players since the 2005 lockout have been on the same team.
 
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6ix

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Crosby. Puts up almost identical stats but is more complete, which is more impressive IMO.

Also a winner at every level. McDavid couldn’t win with a stacked Erie team in junior.
 

daver

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I'll take McDavid. Better EVS player. He would be blowing Crosby's numbers away if he had a half decent PP to work with in Edmonton. Done more with less. He also plays for the biggest dumpster fire in the league, which says a lot considering the league also has Ottawa.

25 GWG already. Crosby had 16 by age 22.

Crosby has been on better teams. No doubt about that. This comparison will take years. Two of the top three players since the 2005 lockout have been on the same team.

He is T6th in PP points this year and was 8th in PP points 16/17 (tied with his linemate BTW) and this has made little difference in where he stands in the scoring race.

His team was also Top 8 in 16/17, and was a better team than what Crosby had thru his first two years.

Talk of PP points vs. ES and crappy teams is an excuse. Does McDavid have no influence on how his team does on the PP? What a weird concept.
 
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bathdog

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Malkin Calder; 2ARs; 1 CS; 1Hart; 1TL vs Draisaitl 0;0;0;0;0
They are not comparable at all.
At least I'm using numbers, you are using asterisks.

I find numerical analysis really interesting, but we need some way to put them into context. It is hardly surprising that Malkin factors in on a decent chunk of Crosby's points, just how many that should be, or how the ratios you posted can be interpreted objectively is a tougher question. Please do address the points below.

Crosby played 197 games without Malkin and scored 249 Points = 1.26 PPG
And with Malkin 712 GP 924 Points = 1.30 PPG, first half of that at 1.44 PPG when both were at their primes. Malkin somehow stopped produce with him on the second half

What does that mean exactly, and how big are the sample sizes for with and without?

The difference between 1.26 and 1.30 is hardly statistically significant, I think you're implying that as well.

1.44 to 1.26 would be, but there are several issues here. For instance, are you considering the differences in potential scoring environments? Are you considering at what stage of Crosby's career these missed games appeared? Presumably you aren't involving Crosby's rookie season in this data when Malkin wasn't even in the league.

If you call 09-10 season his prime then I have bad news for you. He played 15 games without Malkin on that season and scored 12 Points. It's 0.8 PPG.
But overall it's 1.26 PPG without Malkin as I've said already

I think we can disregard a 15 game samples as being a serious argument.
 

daver

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1.44 to 1.26 would be, but there are several issues here. For instance, are you considering the differences in potential scoring environments? Are you considering at what stage of Crosby's career these missed games appeared? Presumably you aren't involving Crosby's rookie season in this data when Malkin wasn't even in the league.

Not surprisingly it does include Crosby's rookie season as it helps fit the narrative.

The question that never gets reasonably answered if % of shared points is so relevant and McDavid has an even higher % of shared points and shared TOI with Draisatl, why isn't this pointed out?

Production-wise, Draisatl's 16/17 season and his current season are better than Malkin's rookie season, about the same as Malkin's 09/10 season, better than Malkin's 10/11 season, and Malkin's 2013 season.

One should reasonably conclude that Draisatl benefits from playing with McDavid but then we should conclude the same for Malkin in the seasons where Crosby's PPG was 30% to 45% better than Malkin's or acknowledge that it would be ridiculous to think that Crosby's numbers were influenced in the those seasons, let alone at all.

There is zero evidence that Crosby's numbers were influenced by a prime Malkin. One can make a better argument that his numbers were worse when Malkin was at his best.
 
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bathdog

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Not surprisingly it does include Crosby's rookie season as it helps fit the narrative.

The question that never gets reasonably answered if % of shared points is so relevant and McDavid has an even higher % of shared points and shared TOI with Draisatl, why isn't this pointed out?

Production-wise, Draisatl's 16/17 season and his current season are better than Malkin's rookie season, about the same as Malkin's 09/10 season, better than Malkin's 10/11 season, and Malkin's 2013 season.

One should reasonably conclude that Draisatl benefits from playing with McDavid but then we should conclude the same for Malkin in the seasons where Crosby's PPG was 30% to 45% better than Malkin's or acknowledge that it would be ridiculous to think that Crosby's numbers were influenced in the those seasons, let alone at all.

There is zero evidence that Crosby's numbers were influenced by a prime Malkin. One can make a better argument that his numbers were worse when Malkin was at his best.

I tend not to bring linemates and teammates into things too much because it's really hard to quantify. The dynamics could be interesting to compare between players in somewhat similar situations though, Crosby/Malkin, Fedorov/Yzerman, Dats/Z, Sakic/Forsberg, maybe Kane/Toews, Matthews/Tavares etc.

Logically I think Malkin can have a larger impact than Drai, but I also think McDavid spend considerably more time with Drai so even if I'd use such argument, it's probably easiest to say it just washes out.
 
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daver

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I tend not to bring linemates and teammates into things too much because it's really hard to quantify. The dynamics could be interesting to compare between players in somewhat similar situations though, Crosby/Malkin, Fedorov/Yzerman, Dats/Z, Sakic/Forsberg, maybe Kane/Toews, Matthews/Tavares etc.

Logically I think Malkin can have a larger impact than Drai, but I also think McDavid spend considerably more time with Drai so even if I'd use such argument, it's probably easiest to say it just washes out.

This seems to be the default logic, and not unreasonably so, but historically, generational talents always have produced at consistent levels regardless of how their linemates perform. Wayne is a perfect example of this. He was elite and put up 200 points before any of his linemates/teammates reached their primes. Mario produced similarly with subpar talent (Rob Brown) and with generational talent (Jagr). Jagr did just as well with or without Mario in the lineup.

Crosby is the exact same way. He always gets his points whether or not his linemates/teammates get theirs. That's what the great players do, they adjust as needed.

McDavid qualifies as the same which is why I don't think either of their numbers need qualification.
 
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Fataldogg

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Crosby was winning Cups at this age, even if McDavid is having slightly better regular seasons, the playoffs tip the scales in Crosby’s favor.

Its not a fair comparison. All things arent equal. Crosby would not have turned the EDM organization around with their upper management. There is a reason they just fired their GM. He was incompetent. The Oilers dont have the talent to compete for a Cup. You cant discredit McDavid for being drafted by a far more incompetent organization.
 

GreatGonzo

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the only one angry here is you

crosby's play had no impact in 09 finals? LOL ok...

i just wonder when the excuses for conner mcgrady will die off, how many non playoff years will it take?

will he make another big push for the art ross like last year when he realized he didn't have to save anything for the playoffs?
Please explain how his play in those finals had ANY impact. 1 goal, 3 points...a -3 +/-. Only scored in 2/7 games. While barely being on the ice in game 7..... I’ll be waiting for you to manipulate something to further your love for all things Crosby or any other excuse you have.....because I know it’s going to be not just false, but funny.

As opposed to sucking half the year like Crosby did last year and finishing 3rd on his own team in scoring.....you and your bias ways write it off as him “saving” himself. It’s sad but hilarious. It’s a nice way to continue giving Crosby the benefit of the doubt, and further strokes your ego and unnatural feelings towards him.

By the way. McDavid was basically on the same pace the following season as last season during that time frame. It’s not hard to understand basic stats and logic, maybe reconsider your stance and look through all the facts before making such judgement calls.

Just let it go, embrace the change. You can’t keep coming up with excuses just because it hurts your fragile feelings that Crosby is no longer the best. I know you love him ever so deeply and all, and with that love, MUST come hate for anyone else who actually comes out as “better.” Just have yourself a nice cry and go get some fresh air.
 

GreatGonzo

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Crosby. Puts up almost identical stats but is more complete, which is more impressive IMO.

Also a winner at every level. McDavid couldn’t win with a stacked Erie team in junior.
Crosby wasn’t “complete” from 18-22 though. We are talking about their first few years. Actually McDavid could probably have a better argument of being better defensively than Crosby was at age 22.

Crosby wouldn’t have won anything on those Oilers teams. It’s easier to win when you have a better team around you with a better player like Malkin wouldn’t you say?
 
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Nadal On Clay

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I’m not surprised. To many die hard Crosby fans who can’t separate team and individual accomplishments while being unable to understand basic logic.

Put Crosby on those Oilers teams and they win anything either.

It goes both ways. You have the “Cup > everything” crowd and you have the “Playoffs dont mean squat/We should not really look at them bc McDavid plays on a shit team” crowd.
 

GreatGonzo

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I tend not to bring linemates and teammates into things too much because it's really hard to quantify. The dynamics could be interesting to compare between players in somewhat similar situations though, Crosby/Malkin, Fedorov/Yzerman, Dats/Z, Sakic/Forsberg, maybe Kane/Toews, Matthews/Tavares etc.

Logically I think Malkin can have a larger impact than Drai, but I also think McDavid spend considerably more time with Drai so even if I'd use such argument, it's probably easiest to say it just washes out.
There is no wash between Drai and Malkin. Why do you people love comparing those two as if they have any sort of resemblance in terms of impact?
Malkin DID have a larger impact than Drai.....

Crosby played a lot with Malkin on PP and at times on his wing. Malkin fished the ‘08 season second in scoring and was a Hart Finalists when Crosby was out due to injuries...only to out score Crosby AND Ovechkin to win the scoring title the following year with one of the best playoff performerances of all time, winning the Smythe.

What exactly is equal about that? Malkin has 2 scoring titles, a Hart, Lindsay, Smythe, while leading the Pens in production 2/3 of their cup runs.....Your comparing a generational player to a solid 2nd line center.

The whole “wash” argument is just pathetic and is an insult to Malkin. I mean are you really trying to say that playing with Drai has more impact on McDavid than not? It’s the other way around buddy.

If Crosby didn’t benefit for Malkin, then there is no need to stretch the truth and try to make an argument for McDavid and Drai.
 

GreatGonzo

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It goes both ways. You have the “Cup > everything” crowd and you have the “Playoffs dont mean squat/We should not really look at them bc McDavid plays on a **** team” crowd.
Nobody said playoffs don’t mean anything. Only that a single player can’t lead his team into the playoffs. Pretty standard.

No one is using McDavids team as an excuse, only the facts and truths....that he has no where near the same caliber of team that Crosby had.

Once again, a lot of pushing away the facts because many feelings are getting hurt. A lot of manipulating what’s being said because people can’t handle the truth.
 

Nadal On Clay

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Nobody said playoffs don’t mean anything. Only that a single player can’t lead his team into the playoffs. Pretty standard.

No one is using McDavids team as an excuse, only the facts and truths....that he has no where near the same caliber of team that Crosby had.

Once again, a lot of pushing away the facts because many feelings are getting hurt. A lot of manipulating what’s being said because people can’t handle the truth.

Nobody who voted Crosby voted him ONLY because he has a cup. That wouldn’t make sense since Max Talbot would also be better than McDavid. Also, there are a lot of posters who are ignoring playoffs or simply not putting a big enough emphasis on them because it’s a team game and McDavids team sucks. That’s facts. It’s almost like you choose what you want to read.

The fact that you voted McDavid doesn’t make him the obvious answer. Like some posters said earlier in this thread, if you don’t think it’s close, then you’re just flat out biased.
 

GreatGonzo

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Nobody who voted Crosby voted him ONLY because he has a cup. That wouldn’t make sense since Max Talbot would also be better than McDavid. Also, there are a lot of posters who are ignoring playoffs or simply not putting a big enough emphasis on them because it’s a team game and McDavids team sucks. That’s facts. It’s almost like you choose what you want to read.

The fact that you voted McDavid doesn’t make him the obvious answer. Like some posters said earlier in this thread, if you don’t think it’s close, then you’re just flat out biased.
Many voted for him because of his playoff success.....what are you talking about? Did they choose him based on his individual achievements? Exactly. It doesn’t make sense, doesn’t make it less the truth that people have picked Crosby. Your obviously not one of them, but many others still think that way.

they aren’t ignoring playoffs, they see it for what it is. This would be a different race if McDavid had made the playoffs the last 4 years and choked every time. Instead we have one post season to go off of where he wasn’t all that great, and you yourself have seen that used against him, which is nonsense.

As opposed to many Pen fans trying to compare Draisatl and Malkin while ignoring Malkins impact on their first cup run? It goes both ways buddy.

Fact is, their playoff opportunities aren’t equal because of the teams they play on. Many pro Crosby fanboys have used that against McDavid as if that’s his fault, while Pro McDavid posters have used Malkin against Crosby, either way.....I’m not saying playoffs shouldn’t be used, only with the very needed context. But the fact that Crosby was able to win a cup shouldn’t mean he’s “AINEC” better than McDavid. We have no idea how he would have done if he had actually made the post season, what we do know is it’s not even close his fault that they haven’t.
 

Vujtek

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Please explain how his play in those finals had ANY impact. 1 goal, 3 points...a -3 +/-. Only scored in 2/7 games. While barely being on the ice in game 7..... I’ll be waiting for you to manipulate something to further your love for all things Crosby or any other excuse you have.....because I know it’s going to be not just false, but funny.

Are you trying to say that assisting a third period GWG on game 3 and then scoring GWG midway through game 4 and few minutes later on assisting an insurance goal on that game while Penguins came back from 0-2 to tie the series at 2-2, had no impact whatsoever on the series?

Was Crosby's overall production in that '09 series against Red Wings a disappointment? Yeah, that's fair to say. Did he at the same time play a crucial role in Penguins coming back to tie the series at home? Yes, yes he did. By no means was he a passenger in the series, all three of his points were impactful and he had a direct role in two of Penguins' wins.
 

daver

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"Playoff leading scorer" Crosby or "31 point, 15 goal" Crosby certainly would have given the 16/17 Oilers a good chance to win the Cup.
 

daver

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Are you trying to say that assisting a third period GWG on game 3 and then scoring GWG midway through game 4 and few minutes later on assisting an insurance goal on that game while Penguins came back from 0-2 to tie the series at 2-2, had no impact whatsoever on the series?

Was Crosby's overall production in that '09 series against Red Wings a disappointment? Yeah, that's fair to say. Did he at the same time play a crucial role in Penguins coming back to tie the series at home? Yes, yes he did. By no means was he a passenger in the series, all three of his points were impactful and he had a direct role in two of Penguins' wins.

Makes the Wings look like idiots for constantly putting their best defensive forward and their Top 5 all-time d-man on Crosby the whole series.

GG being GG as usual.
 

McRpro

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"Playoff leading scorer" Crosby or "31 point, 15 goal" Crosby certainly would have given the 16/17 Oilers a good chance to win the Cup.
I had no idea Crosby did that good the first time he was in the playoffs. Didn't they lose in the first round to Ottawa?
 

daver

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I had no idea Crosby did that good the first time he was in the playoffs. Didn't they lose in the first round to Ottawa?

I wasn't referring to Crosby in his first playoff. The comment was Crosby wouldn't be able to lead the Oilers to a Cup.
 

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