Crosby vs McDavid (At Age 22)

[Samsquanch]

Chiasson McDavid Draisaitl
Reider RNH Puljujarvi
Lucic Brodziak Spooner
Khaira Cave Kassian
Yamamoto

Russell Nurse
Jones Larsson
Manning Benning

Koskinen
Talbot

My god, as an outside fan, its simply incredible to me how Edmonton's roster on paper has turned so ugly, so fast. So many horrible moves. Edmonton is just a black hole of sorts, and I just cant agree that their lack of succes has anything at all to do with Conor, yet.

So with that being said, McDavid is the better player at the same age imo. His speed is the difference maker to me; Crosby was more of a jack of all trades and didnt do any one thing on a completely different level than everyone else.

And maybe it hurts Crosby in my mind (and maybe a bit unfairly), but I was more impressed with Ovechkin in their first 4 or 5 seasons. Cant say anyone else right now is even close to Conor.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

McDavid couldn't lead stacked Erie Otters team to OHL cup, nor to Mem Cup
McDavid couldn't lead Edmonton past 2nd round
McDavid's World Cup was a failure
McDavid won the last World Championships scoring title, but couldn't lead team Canada to gold
|

The only time Connor McDavid ever has led his team to success, was in 2013, u18 WJC.
- back then, he actually was the best player and led team Canada to gold
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Crosby is a natural born winner and a leader, who makes players around him better, play better, become better,
he has done (been) this since his junior years.

Crosby > McDavid
no matter what age is in question

 

[Future GOAT]

Do you honestly think Crosby didn't have playoff series duds during his prime? A certain Boston series comes to mind.

And a certain Detroit series.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

McDavid couldn't lead stacked Erie Otters team to OHL cup, nor to Mem Cup
McDavid couldn't lead Edmonton past 2nd round
McDavid's World Cup was a failure
McDavid won the last World Championships scoring title, but couldn't lead team Canada to gold
|

The only time Connor McDavid ever has led his team to success, was in 2013, u18 WJC.
- back then, he actually was the best player and led team Canada to gold
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Crosby is a natural born winner and a leader, who makes players around him better, play better, become better,
he has done (been) this since his junior years.

Crosby > McDavid
no matter what age is in question

Oh good. The intangibles route.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

These forwards either became better players, or played beyond their own capabilities because of Crosby:
(through out his junior and NHL career)

Dany Roussin
Danny Stewart
Marc-Antoine Pouliot

Colby Armstrong
Andy Hilbert
Ryan Malone
Erik Christensen
Michelle Ouellet
Maxim Talbot
Tyler Kennedy
Pascal Dupuis
Chris Kunitz
Dustin Jeffrey
James Neal
Beau Bennett
Bryan Rust
Conor Sheary
Jake Guenzel

 

[bobholly39]

Because the NHL isn't a vacuum where every player gets the same opportunities in the postseason.

Too bad for McDavid and net positive for Crosby?

That's how playoffs have always worked. Not all opportunities are created equal. You still can only judge on what you get. By age 22 Crosby's playoff achievements were quite significant (esp if we have both 2008 and 2009 in there). Two great, great runs by such a young player. In comparison McDavid has next to nothing.

It doesn't really matter if you think McDavid would do better under the same circumstances/Crosby would do worst in Edmonton - playoffs are all about players not getting the same opportunities. That's still how you judge playoffs.

Beliveau, Maurice Richard - two of the all time greats and best playoff performers in history. I'm sure if they didn't play on the Habs they don't have as much success. You still don't look at that, you only consider what was.

Also - to answer your earlier post about McDavid hypothetically never making it past round 1 but maintaining a 1.3 ppg in playoffs. At age 21-22 that matters not at all. At age 30+ (look at Ov before last year) - it would start to matter. He's not just some random winger with no responsibility - he's the leader of the team, the best player and captain, and at some point success has to pass through him. If he gets to age 30+ with a bunch of only 1st round exits and high numbers - it'll look bad on him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not going to bother getting into who is actually better at age 22, but I do think it's a bit silly how folks voting against Crosby dismiss the fact that he hasn't had a linemate as good as Draisaitl, all because "he got to play with Malkin".

Malkin being on the Pens helped the *Penguins* be better and find more team success. But I'm not sure how much Malkin being on the Pens has helped Crosby's *individual* stats.

 

[Future GOAT]

I'm not going to bother getting into who is actually better at age 22, but I do think it's a bit silly how folks voting against Crosby dismiss the fact that he hasn't had a linemate as good as Draisaitl, all because "he got to play with Malkin".

Malkin being on the Pens helped the *Penguins* be better and find more team success. But I'm not sure how much Malkin being on the Pens has helped Crosby's *individual* stats.

It helped his individual stats quite a bit by allowing for better powerplays and deeper playoff runs which benefited Crosby giving him more opportunities to put up more playoff points and earn playoff hardware. It wasn't just Malkin that helped Crosby though, the Pens secondary scoring has been good enough to support Crosby and Malkin as well.

By the same token, the people voting against McDavid are trying to pretend that McDavid is only as good as he is because of Draisaitl when there is a whole two and a half year sample size of off and on play between the two showing McDavid produces regardless of who his linemates are and produces at an elite level even without Draisaitl and even with a revolving door of linemates. I'm a big proponent of moving Draisaitl off of McDavid's line and just leaving him as a 2c with Nuge as a winger to add some skill to the 2nd line and let him do what he's getting paid to do. I get that Drai produces 20 to 30 points better with McDavid, but this team needs scoring depth and despite the narrative people are trying to portray, McDavid doesn't need Drai in order to put up elite 1c numbers.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It’s actaully the correct logic if you ask anyone in the actual hockey world not on an internet message board lol

So you have insight into the real hockey world? Care to share? I did read something interesting not to long ago where Crosby said that McDavid was the best in the world....is that “real” enough?

You started this whole thing by claiming me to be a Flyers fan and a Crosby hater. That’s your only means of defense and your only way of any argument. You have nothing legit to say. Move along before you embarrass yourself.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not going to bother getting into who is actually better at age 22, but I do think it's a bit silly how folks voting against Crosby dismiss the fact that he hasn't had a linemate as good as Draisaitl, all because "he got to play with Malkin".

Malkin being on the Pens helped the *Penguins* be better and find more team success. But I'm not sure how much Malkin being on the Pens has helped Crosby's *individual* stats.

That’s a nice twist in the narrative. Crosby had Hossa his first cup run, who is clearly better than Draisaitl. Also, Malkin didn’t need to be on his line to be impactful. He’s the one who won the Smythe and carried Crosby in the finals in ‘09. Whether or not he was on his line doesn’t matter, that’s just a way for you to try to change the goal posts.

But that’s not the argument. Everyone who has voted for Crosby, it’s because of team success. Individually it’s close, but Malkin has had a clear impact on all of the Pens cup runs. Especially their first one. No one is saying Crosby was better because He played with Malkin, only that he had more opportunity to chase the cup because of Malkin and others. Having the 2nd/3rd best player during that time frame is going to be positive no matter what.

 

[DanZ]

Crosby has never dealt with anywhere near the focus and gameplanning around him.

Lol what? How about Lidstrom/Zetterberg?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid couldn't lead stacked Erie Otters team to OHL cup, nor to Mem Cup
McDavid couldn't lead Edmonton past 2nd round
McDavid's World Cup was a failure
McDavid won the last World Championships scoring title, but couldn't lead team Canada to gold
|

The only time Connor McDavid ever has led his team to success, was in 2013, u18 WJC.
- back then, he actually was the best player and led team Canada to gold
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Crosby is a natural born winner and a leader, who makes players around him better, play better, become better,
he has done (been) this since his junior years.

Crosby > McDavid
no matter what age is in question

As far as I can tell, Crosby has won at least one championship with every different team he's played on since he was 9 years old. When was the last time McDavid won a championship of something other than a two week tournament for Team Canada?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid was 19 in his only playoff experience facing 5 man shutdown lines focused solely on him. Crosby has never dealt with anywhere near the focus and gameplanning around him.

No. McDavid was limited not by individual players, but by tactics their opponents employed, such as making sure there was a guy in front of him in the NZ at all times, mostly limiting his greatest ability- creating odd man chances off the rush.

Crosby has always had a more diverse, well-rounded game, making him more difficult to shut down.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

McDavid has to show that he can be a playoff beast, doing great in the regular season is not enough.

 

[Future GOAT]

No. McDavid was limited not by individual players, but by tactics their opponents employed, such as making sure there was a guy in front of him in the NZ at all times, mostly limiting his greatest ability- creating odd man chances off the rush.

That and of course the hooking, holding and interfering with him behind the play without penalty calls before he even had a chance to get into it as well, which can be seen by re-watching those series and is currently happening to him during the regular season although to not such a great extent as it happened in the playoffs that season. Given it was his first playoffs, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he will be smarter and come up with some ways to mitigate that in his next playoffs.

Crosby has always had a more diverse, well-rounded game, making him more difficult to shut down.

Except in those infamous series' vs Detroit and Boston when he was completely neutralized while already having playoff experience.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Who honestly believed they would be cup favorites?

i already answered that

vegas and countless people on this forum

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Odds in Vegas are irrelevant. An influx of betting on the Oilers by casual fans or "professional" betters that see an edge in the odds means that the bookies have to offer lower odds to balance the bets. Which makes the Oilers look like favourites...

Vegas odds are not indicative of the team's actual skill or contending ability. Brady was an odds underdog in KC.... dudes won how many AFC championship games?

Poor argument.

your example isn't good because between 2 teams one has to be the favorite and the other has to be the underdog

the oilers were favorites in a league of 30 teams

 

[GreatGonzo]

i already answered that

vegas and countless people on this forum

“Countless”

You still can’t comprehend that it was a fluke run can you.... I think it’s safe to say that we all underestimated Vegas, but in the end they are doing far better at this moment than the Oilers so your point continues to make less sense.

 

[GreatGonzo]

your example isn't good because between 2 teams one has to be the favorite and the other has to be the underdog

the oilers were favorites in a league of 30 teams

That still has nothing to do with the topic. How many times were the Pens favorites and fell flat?

 

[GreatGonzo]

No. McDavid was limited not by individual players, but by tactics their opponents employed, such as making sure there was a guy in front of him in the NZ at all times, mostly limiting his greatest ability- creating odd man chances off the rush.

Crosby has always had a more diverse, well-rounded game, making him more difficult to shut down.

Not when he was 22....and definitely not the first few years of his career.

And when Crosby did get shut down(‘09 finals)....he has Malkin to bail him out.

 

[GreatGonzo]

As far as I can tell, Crosby has won at least one championship with every different team he's played on since he was 9 years old. When was the last time McDavid won a championship of something other than a two week tournament for Team Canada?

Some of you really can’t tell the difference between an individual award and team one, can you.....it’s baffling...

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That’s a nice twist in the narrative. Crosby had Hossa his first cup run, who is clearly better than Draisaitl. Also, Malkin didn’t need to be on his line to be impactful. He’s the one who won the Smythe and carried Crosby in the finals in ‘09. Whether or not he was on his line doesn’t matter, that’s just a way for you to try to change the goal posts.

But that’s not the argument. Everyone who has voted for Crosby, it’s because of team success. Individually it’s close, but Malkin has had a clear impact on all of the Pens cup runs. Especially their first one. No one is saying Crosby was better because He played with Malkin, only that he had more opportunity to chase the cup because of Malkin and others. Having the 2nd/3rd best player during that time frame is going to be positive no matter what.

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about team success, so I have literally no idea why you mention the Cup in 2009 or who was most responsible for it or whether Malkin has a clear impact on Cup wins.

I literally said having Malkin helps the Penguins have team success. Literally said that. My comment was about how Crosby hasn't had a linemate as good as Draisaitl, so I'm not sure how much Malkin actually helps Crosby's individual stats since they only play together on the PP. Listing like 12 games of Hossa doesn't really refute that.

Seriously, don't quote me if you're not even going to respond to what I actually said rather than what you're arguing with other people about.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It helped his individual stats quite a bit by allowing for better powerplays and deeper playoff runs which benefited Crosby giving him more opportunities to put up more playoff points and earn playoff hardware. It wasn't just Malkin that helped Crosby though, the Pens secondary scoring has been good enough to support Crosby and Malkin as well.

So in your mind, a player will produce better individual stats if he has mediocre even strength linemates and a generational PP linemate than if he had a star playing on his line at even strength?

For instance, you think Crosby's numbers would be better as is (ie. no high end ES linemates but Malkin on the PP) rather than if he had, say, a Marner or Rantanen at ES but no Malkin on the PP?

I don't think that's the case. Like I said (and apparently have to repeat since people keep bringing up team success when I didn't even focus on that), Malkin clearly allows Crosby to have to more TEAM success. But I'm not sure if getting roughly 4 minutes of PP time per game with Malkin inflates Crosby's individual stats more than if Crosby had a star winger to play with for roughly 15 minutes per night at ES.

Flip it around a bit. Do you think McDavid's numbers would be better if he had Malkin playing 2C behind him and only had him on the PP, but had to be flanked instead by like Lucic and Rattie or whatever, than his numbers with Draisaitl on his wing at ES? Keep in mind I'm talking about individual numbers, not whether the Oilers would be closer to winning a Cup.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about team success, so I have literally no idea why you mention the Cup in 2009 or who was most responsible for it or whether Malkin has a clear impact on Cup wins.

I literally said having Malkin helps the Penguins have team success. Literally said that. My comment was about how Crosby hasn't had a linemate as good as Draisaitl, so I'm not sure how much Malkin actually helps Crosby's individual stats since they only play together on the PP. Listing like 12 games of Hossa doesn't really refute that.

Seriously, don't quote me if you're not even going to respond to what I actually said rather than what you're arguing with other people about.

I wasn’t talking directly to you or what you said, just quoting you because you brought up some points that many others are using for or against so my apologies if it looked like it was against you.

People who are voting against Crosby know that his team success has much more to do with having Malkin and Company, and that his team success is being the deciding factor for lots of people who are voting for Crosby.

As individuals, Malkin has little to nothing to do with them. Same with Draisatl.

 

[GreatGonzo]

So in your mind, a player will produce better individual stats if he has mediocre even strength linemates and a generational PP linemate than if he had a star playing on his line at even strength?

For instance, you think Crosby's numbers would be better as is (ie. no high end ES linemates but Malkin on the PP) rather than if he had, say, a Marner or Rantanen at ES but no Malkin on the PP?

I don't think that's the case. Like I said (and apparently have to repeat since people keep bringing up team success when I didn't even focus on that), Malkin clearly allows Crosby to have to more TEAM success. But I'm not sure if getting roughly 4 minutes of PP time per game with Malkin inflates Crosby's individual stats more than if Crosby had a star winger to play with for roughly 15 minutes per night at ES.

Flip it around a bit. Do you think McDavid's numbers would be better if he had Malkin playing 2C behind him and only had him on the PP, but had to be flanked instead by like Lucic and Rattie or whatever, than his numbers with Draisaitl on his wing at ES? Keep in mind I'm talking about individual numbers, not whether the Oilers would be closer to winning a Cup.

Crosby’s best season during those years, he had half his points on the PP. he also had Malkin on the PP, so it can be argued regardless.

The Pens had one of the better PPs in the league during that time while being among the top in PP opportunities. The oilers haven’t. I’m not saying this should make or break anything, but their top seasons being compared, McDavids production is more impressive.