Crosby releases statement regarding George Floyd's death

[Jaded-Fan]

Funny you mention Ken Burns. He has this to say re: monuments:

Thank you for sharing. I had not seen that before and watched the entire clip before commenting.

I, as usual, agree completely with Mr. Burns, as well as James Baldwin. I actually have a signed copy of Go Tell it on the Mountain from him.

I am not sure how that is a counter for what I am saying. It argues strongly my point. That history should be remembered, contextualized and explained. Otherwise the lessons are lost.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Once again, there has been decades-worth of efforts to talk this whole thing out.

This seems to be a bit of a common sticking point for some... assuming that the usual channels haven't already been taken and failed.

Does this strike anyone as the era of debate and measured reason? lol

That isn't to say I condone wanton destruction, violence and senseless mob rule and anarchy. Only that the above be acknowledged.

Yes and no.

There has been debate and I agree it's ignored

But I think at this point there is no ignoring it- lots of places are taking measures. The debate that is still being tossed about is "where do you draw the line?"

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I didn't post it as a counter to anything. I agree with most of your reasoning. I myself studied history all through university.

You do not need monuments born out of hatred, ignorance and a truly twisted take on REAL history to further distort the actual facts in order to learn and remember. If people aren't going to read books they aren't going to read a plaque on a statue. That's where we disagree. I see no use in them at all and no value to us as a society and I never have.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

We will agree to disagree.

But we seem to be on the same side, merely disagreeing on what the right procedure should be and about some details around the edges.

Which is pretty much a microcosm of what is wrong with the country and the world today. And what is wrong in this current crises in particular. Most seem to agree about a lot. But find ways to end up in a hateful battle anyways. '"Us" against "Them". They are evil and stupid. When you start with that mindset even the littlest things become chasms which can not be overcome.

It reminds me of this quote by the great Historian Shelby Foote in Ken Burns' The Civil War series.



It is amazing how much that quote matches today. Sad really.

I get your argument, it just ignores reality IMHO.

How would you and your family feel if a statue of Hitler was erected in the future with the reasoning you are making above?

He did do a lot of good things and there are way more people out there who think he was a great man than you probably want to know.

So it is quite a plausible scenario.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I get your argument, it just ignores reality IMHO.

How would you and your family feel if a statue of Hitler was erected in the future with the reasoning you are making above?

He did do a lot of good things and there are way more people out there who think he was a great man than you probably want to know.

So it is quite a plausible scenario.

That keeps being your go to, like it is a gotcha line.

It would depend on the same things. How it was used in the past, what it can teach us in the present.

The statues at issue here have several historical contexts, and shed light on areas that need to have more light on them as lessons very necessary for today.

The history of those confederate statues include the Civil Wars of the 1860's, the early 20th century and Jim Crow when they were erected, the 1960's with Civil Rights legislation. And even today with these protests.

What would this imaginary statue of Hitler teach similarly, what light on a little recognized wrong of the past like Jim Crow would it shed? If it had that kind of teaching value I would be first in line calling for it to remain in place, be contextualized and have teaching aids next to it to teach those lessons so that they would not be forgotten. If it was simply a statue of Hitler that stood in front of a post office somewhere way out in the country in Germany in 1943 then put it in a museum, it ain't teaching much of anything.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

OK like... lemme flip this around a bit. Clearly it's dumb to topple statues of guys like Hans Christian Hegs... dude was woke before woke was a thing.

But some dummies did it anyway. Is it fair to say that they, uh... didn't learn f***-all about history from that statue?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

OK like... lemme flip this around a bit. Clearly it's dumb to topple statues of guys like Hans Christian Hegs... dude was woke before woke was a thing.

But some dummies did it anyway. Is it fair to say that they, uh... didn't learn f***-all about history from that statue?

You had me at calling them dummies who didn't know history.

Ironically proving my central point the past few pages.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You had me at calling them dummies who didn't know history.

Ironically proving my central point the past few pages.

But I mean... you DO see my point, right?

Holding on to these things teaches nothing. It sure didn't help ol Hans.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That keeps being your go to, like it is a gotcha line.

It would depend on the same things. How it was used in the past, what it can teach us in the present.

Statues are made to honor. You can’t dance around that fact forever.

The statues at issue here have several historical contexts, and shed light on areas that need to have more light on them as lessons very necessary for today.

The history of those confederate statues include the Civil Wars of the 1860's, the early 20th century and Jim Crow when they were erected, the 1960's with Civil Rights legislation. And even today with these protests.

What would this imaginary statue of Hitler teach similarly, what light on a little recognized wrong of the past like Jim Crow would it shed? If it had that kind of teaching value I would be first in line calling for it to remain in place, be contextualized and have teaching aids next to it to teach those lessons so that they would not be forgotten. If it was simply a statue of Hitler that stood in front of a post office somewhere way out in the country in Germany in 1943 then put it in a museum, it ain't teaching much of anything.

It isn’t a go to anything, it’s a valid comparison you keep dancing around.

Basically while I assume it isn’t your intention, you are making the argument it’s ok to keep slapping black and indigenous Americans in the face... because you believe there is some kind of history lesson in keeping these statues up?

You continue to ignore the actual symbolism behind these statues and how deeply they offend the ancestors of those who were enslaved and murdered by these men.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

But I mean... you DO see my point, right?

Holding on to these things teaches nothing. It sure didn't help ol Hans.

Have you seen the base? It barely had any information about him, and those who toppled the statue I am certain had no clue what battle that was or what side Wisconsin was on in the Civil War.

Again, making my point of not keeping them all, but adding context and education for those that remain.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm sorry man I respect you and your opinion but like Jiggy said... that sentiment just isn't based in reality and is rather naive. I see no reason to continue.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It isn’t a go to anything, it’s a valid comparison you keep dancing around.

Basically while I assume it isn’t your intention, you are making the argument it’s ok to keep slapping black and indigenous Americans in the face... because you believe there is some kind of history lesson in keeping these statues up?

You continue to ignore the actual symbolism behind these statues and how deeply they offend the ancestors who were enslaved and murdered by these men.

I am not ignoring anything. The Nazi's marched through Skokie, Illinois, a community where many Holocaust survivors lived. The ACLU defended their right to do so, and some of the attorneys for the ACLU making the argument were Jewish.

I get being offended.

But you are ignoring the lessons of history. History can often be hard to face. Freedom of speech means sometimes being offended. But to ignore it is more dangerous. To hide it is more dangerous still. Some things are so horrible that they need to be seen so that hopefully they are less likely to happen again.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I do not understand your positions.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I am not ignoring anything. The Nazi's marched through Skokie, Illinois, a community where many Holocaust survivors lived. The ACLU defended their right to do so, and some of the attorneys for the ACLU making the argument were Jewish.

I get being offended.

But you are ignoring the lessons of history. History can often be hard to face. Freedom of speech means sometimes being offended. But to ignore it is more dangerous. To hide it is more dangerous still. Some things are so horrible that they need to be seen so that hopefully they are less likely to happen again.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I do not understand your positions.

Jaded, a statue is meant to honor an individual. There is no way around it.

If you want a teachable moment for future generations, a perfect example would be to pull down the Calhoun statue and put up a proper monument to the Stono Rebellion.

That would be extremely difficult for our children to be exposed to, instead of the whitewashing of Calhoun and hoping it somehow teaches a lesson.

 

[Peat]

Have you seen the base? It barely had any information about him, and those who toppled the statue I am certain had no clue what battle that was or what side Wisconsin was on in the Civil War.

Again, making my point of not keeping them all, but adding context and education for those that remain.

Who reads statue bases?

This is the thing I really don't get your argument. Do I believe that more teaching of the painful parts of history might slow the way humanity keeps on being vile to reach other? Yes.

But the part in which statues with plaques just on the street are a big part of this? Are the people who need to pay attention really going to do so?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

We are kinda going around in circles now, so can we just agree that we are mostly on the same side, disagree about tactics, and call it a day? Otherwise we could spend the next five pages, at least, saying the same things over and over.

 

[SouthGeorge]

I didn't post it as a counter to anything. I agree with most of your reasoning. I myself studied history all through university.

You do not need monuments born out of hatred, ignorance and a truly twisted take on REAL history to further distort the actual facts in order to learn and remember. If people aren't going to read books they aren't going to read a plaque on a statue. That's where we disagree. I see no use in them at all and no value to us as a society and I never have.

Here's the thing are the statues put up because they owned a slave or because they contributed to America in another way? It's basically cancel culture for 200 years ago. People are digging into their past and going look they had a slave at one time. Tear it down. Sad reality is we would be hard pressed to find somebody who didn't have one back then. In 100-200 years people are going to get cancelled for doing popular things right now. Already seeing all the pictures of people in blackface from 10-30 years ago.

I agree, statues are to honor. Nobody really looks at them or uses them as a teaching tool. I'm all for just tearing them all down and starting fresh. Lets just start fresh as a country. But then people would complain we are burying history etc. There's no winning.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Who reads statue bases?

<Raises hand>

My wife gets annoyed because whenever we go to a new city and we come across a statute/memorial I have to stop and read it
Realize I'm in the minority in this.

 

[Shady Machine]

<Raises hand>

My wife gets annoyed because whenever we go to a new city and we come across a statute/memorial I have to stop and read it
Realize I'm in the minority in this.

This guy too. My wife can't stand going to museums with me because I take forever and insist on reading nearly everything.

 

[Ryder71]

I find museums to be drab, cold, uninspiring and boring. Of course I feel the same way about strip clubs. I'm pretty peculiar I guess.

 

[Shady Machine]

That keeps being your go to, like it is a gotcha line.

It would depend on the same things. How it was used in the past, what it can teach us in the present.

The statues at issue here have several historical contexts, and shed light on areas that need to have more light on them as lessons very necessary for today.

The history of those confederate statues include the Civil Wars of the 1860's, the early 20th century and Jim Crow when they were erected, the 1960's with Civil Rights legislation. And even today with these protests.

What would this imaginary statue of Hitler teach similarly, what light on a little recognized wrong of the past like Jim Crow would it shed? If it had that kind of teaching value I would be first in line calling for it to remain in place, be contextualized and have teaching aids next to it to teach those lessons so that they would not be forgotten. If it was simply a statue of Hitler that stood in front of a post office somewhere way out in the country in Germany in 1943 then put it in a museum, it ain't teaching much of anything.

How were the Confederate statues used in the past? Don't you realize WHY they were constructed and who constructed them? There was never an intent to educate. They were used to intimidate and justify continued racism.

Jiggy's comparison might seem wild, but it's actually pretty damn comparable.

 

[Shady Machine]

I am not ignoring anything. The Nazi's marched through Skokie, Illinois, a community where many Holocaust survivors lived. The ACLU defended their right to do so, and some of the attorneys for the ACLU making the argument were Jewish.

I get being offended.

But you are ignoring the lessons of history. History can often be hard to face. Freedom of speech means sometimes being offended. But to ignore it is more dangerous. To hide it is more dangerous still. Some things are so horrible that they need to be seen so that hopefully they are less likely to happen again.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I do not understand your positions.

Defending someone's right to march is FAR different than defending a statue that was erected solely for the purpose of justifying the heritage of slave owners or nazi's.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I find museums to be drab, cold, uninspiring and boring. Of course I feel the same way about strip clubs. I'm pretty peculiar I guess.

maybe you're not going to the right strip clubs....I mean Musuems

I totally meant museums

 

[Shady Machine]

Sorry for jumping in late saying the same things as a few others @Jaded-Fan

My main take here is that you are rightly concerned about preserving history BUT I think you are concerned about the wrong thing. US history has been taught incorrectly to the benefit of the white majority for hundreds of years. Tearing down these statues, in my estimation, does more to teach accurate history than it does to destroy it.

Now, there are some instances that go too far, but particularly on the Confederacy and Columbus, It's beyond time to tear down and move forward.

 

[Ryder71]

maybe you're not going to the right strip clubs....I mean Musuems

I totally meant museums

I do not frequent strip clubs. Maybe three times over twenty years ago. If I'm happy with my GF or not I still wouldn't go. A buddy of mine worked there as a bartender. That's the only reason I went. But I think I'm way off course here so I digress. lol

 

[Ryder71]

Sorry for jumping in late saying the same things as a few others @Jaded-Fan

My main take here is that you are rightly concerned about preserving history BUT I think you are concerned about the wrong thing. US history has been taught incorrectly to the benefit of the white majority for hundreds of years. Tearing down these statues, in my estimation, does more to teach accurate history than it does to destroy it.

Now, there are some instances that go too far, but particularly on the Confederacy and Columbus, It's beyond time to tear down and move forward.

My opinion is NONE of the statues should be taken down and that some people may be looking for drama where there isn't any. I don't believe for a second that the vast majority of people regardless of race wake up every day feeling oppressed or terrified because there are statues of individuals who fought for the confederacy. That's just outlandish, attention getting and a select few constantly wanting to play the victim. If you're THAT offended, elect individuals who put laws in place to tear all of them down. Good luck with that.