Crosby releases statement regarding George Floyd's death

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Indeed. I recognize that saying "what about black on black crime" as a response to injustice against black people at the hands of police or the overall justice system is totally irrelevant and misguided.

.

To slightly derail your post , can someone lay out what BLM wants?
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

This is a 10,000 foot overview and reads like a mission statement.

Are they in support of defunding the police? Isn't really apparent
Defunding police: What it means and what it could look like - CNN

I think there's a significant pushback from white people & institutions because there's no clear and defined process outlined by BLM. We know they protest against killing of black people and want it to end. I'm not sure there's anyone who disagrees with that vision. It's how they get there that has people confused and they really need a leader with credibility if they want to keep momentum

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You just cited a period of time in which US politics, in action, has been decidedly moving much more to the right than left and in which a Republican president was sitting in the Oval Office for 24 years as opposed to 16 for their opposites. So... nice job?

 

[Shady Machine]

But you're trying to determine what should or should not be permitted based on your own personal feelings or perspective. What if my feelings and perspective are different, why should you determine what statues stay up? Who made you the arbiter of what is acceptable and what isn't? That's more of what I'm speaking to. You have no credentials, you aren't a flawless individual, You weren't elected, so why should your delicate sensibilities supersede others opinions?

Regarding the Lemieux statue and other such statues that were defaced, do you really think all or even most of those people who desecrate them really care as to who the statue depicts? Or do they just want to go out and damage and cause chaos for the sake of doing so? Again, this is a slippery slope and it doesn't necessarily have an off ramp once you get on.

On the first paragraph, you are correct that I have no credentials to make me the arbiter and I am not trying to be. That said, there are many actual arbiters that are now suggesting statues be removed and many people are still complaining and using the same type of "cancel culture" arguments. One recent example:

Theodore Roosevelt statue will be removed from the front steps of the Museum of Natural History - CNN

Again, as I have said, I don't condone people defacing or tearing down statues on their own. But I am not going to be as outraged by that as I am what those symbols mean to many people of color (black and indigenous in the case of Teddy Roosevelt's statue). In that particular instance, it wasn't the person, but what the statue seemed to say to many in the imagery.

I think there is a legitimate debate that needs to happen about the meaning and value of public monuments of historical figures in US history that by today's standards wouldn't pass the muster, so to speak. BUT I don't believe there is any legitimate argument to be made to honor confederate leaders. As I said yesterday, they don't all need to be taken down, but at the very least, a placard put up explaining the real history.

As for those who desecrate, I think it's probably a mixed bag. Some just like destruction, but I suspect there are others that care very deeply about removing the statues.

Anyway, you seem to be jumping on different angles of the argument versus addressing what I am really saying, so we are probably close to an impasse.

 

[Ryder71]

On the first paragraph, you are correct that I have no credentials to make me the arbiter and I am not trying to be. That said, there are many actual arbiters that are now suggesting statues be removed and many people are still complaining and using the same type of "cancel culture" arguments. One recent example:

Theodore Roosevelt statue will be removed from the front steps of the Museum of Natural History - CNN

Again, as I have said, I don't condone people defacing or tearing down statues on their own. But I am not going to be as outraged by that as I am what those symbols mean to many people of color (black and indigenous in the case of Teddy Roosevelt's statue). In that particular instance, it wasn't the person, but what the statue seemed to say to many in the imagery.

I think there is a legitimate debate that needs to happen about the meaning and value of public monuments of historical figures in US history that by today's standards wouldn't pass the muster, so to speak. BUT I don't believe there is any legitimate argument to be made to honor confederate leaders. As I said yesterday, they don't all need to be taken down, but at the very least, a placard put up explaining the real history.

As for those who desecrate, I think it's probably a mixed bag. Some just like destruction, but I suspect there are others that care very deeply about removing the statues.

Anyway, you seem to be jumping on different angles of the argument versus addressing what I am really saying, so we are probably close to an impasse.

Yeah, I think our debate has run it's course. But at least we were civil in doing so. I wish other such debates could occur similarly.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah, I think our debate has run it's course. But at least we were civil in doing so. I wish other such debates could occur similarly.

Agreed. Good chat!

 

[Shady Machine]

To slightly derail your post , can someone lay out what BLM wants?
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

This is a 10,000 foot overview and reads like a mission statement.

Are they in support of defunding the police? Isn't really apparent
Defunding police: What it means and what it could look like - CNN

I think there's a significant pushback from white people & institutions because there's no clear and defined process outlined by BLM. We know they protest against killing of black people and want it to end. I'm not sure there's anyone who disagrees with that vision. It's how they get there that has people confused and they really need a leader with credibility if they want to keep momentum

I think there are more sinister reasons for white people and institutions pushing back, but that isn't to say your point is invalid. The official BLM movement is still evolving and doesn't have consistent clarity on policy priorities.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I think there are more sinister reasons for white people and institutions pushing back, but that isn't to say your point is invalid. The official BLM movement is still evolving and doesn't have consistent clarity on policy priorities.

Could you imagine an organization 7 years in existence not knowing precisely how they want to achieve their goals?
I'm not saying their cause isn't legit, but no other business or NFP would continue to receive money if they didn't have things clearly outlined.

Speaking of money, where exactly are all the donations going? From this article 75% went to salaries/benefits/consulting fees. Woof...

As Black Lives Matter donations surge, some want to know where the money goes

The Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is fiscally sponsored by another nonprofit, Thousand Currents, which has provided “fiduciary oversight, financial management, and other administrative services” since 2016. Such a sponsorship relationship is not uncommon for groups that have not yet received IRS approval for tax-exempt 501(c)(3) status.
Because of that relationship, Black Lives Matter does not file its own public financial disclosures, but Thousand Currents’ fiscal documents provide some insight into how the group’s funds are spent. A Thousand Currents audit for fiscal year 2019 shows it had released about $1.8 million to the group in the year ending in June 2019.
According to information provided to FactCheck.org by Thousand Currents, about one-quarter of Black Lives Matter expenditures in fiscal year 2019 went to salaries, benefits, and payroll taxes and 46% went to “consultant fees,” but the audit provides no further details. A small fraction was spent on grants, and much of the rest was allocated to accounting, bank fees, information technology, insurance, legal fees, and office expenses.
Thousand Currents’ 2019 annual report includes a broad breakdown of its overall expenses—showing 81% of spending goes towards programs and only 6% is spent on management and operations—but it does not contain similar data on how Black Lives Matter revenue is used. Thousand Currents did not respond to a request for additional information Monday.

 

[Shady Machine]

Legit critique and questions being asked. I will just say I personally separate the term black lives matter from the official organization. I think it's a broader message to be spoken without necessarily attaching it to the organization by the same name. I recognize not everyone will understand or agree with that nuance.

 

[The Old Master]

You just cited a period of time in which US politics, in action, has been decidedly moving much more to the right than left and in which a Republican president was sitting in the Oval Office for 24 years as opposed to 16 for their opposites. So... nice job?

it's not republican or democrat it's conservative or liberal many republicans are liberal. and at one time there were a few conservative dem.s and i thank you.

 

[ColePens]

Charitynavigator.org and other charity tracking websites are huuuuuuuuge when you are giving money. Make sure your money goes to what can create effective changes.

 

[Mr. T]

it's not republican or democrat it's conservative or liberal many republicans are liberal. and at one time there were a few conservative dem.s and i thank you.

There are two political parties in the US, right-wing and center-right. Massive tax cuts for the wealthy, complete deference to Wall Street, increased military and "defense" spending don't sound very liberal. Neoliberal maybe, like Saint Ronnie, sure.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

it's not republican or democrat it's conservative or liberal many republicans are liberal. and at one time there were a few conservative dem.s and i thank you.

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this or what you are driving at.

The actual fact of the matter is that our government's policies have been functionally pushing further and further to the right since the New Deal. I'm not necessarily talking about all social issues, here. Protections from corporate maleficence, monopoly busting, protections for workers, tax rates of wealthy vs working class, huge upticks in Pentagon spending. And that's across both parties. Hell if you took the big, bad conservative boogieman in Obama and trotted him around the world, nearly everyone would see him as a right-leaning centrist. Because that's what he is in policy and action.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Legit critique and questions being asked. I will just say I personally separate the term black lives matter from the official organization. I think it's a broader message to be spoken without necessarily attaching it to the organization by the same name. I recognize not everyone will understand or agree with that nuance.

I get what you're saying
But BLM has a TON of money rolling or about to roll in. It's incumbent to make those dollars count. Because if they squander it, they'll become the same institution that they claim they hate: people who have financial and political power yet don't do anything with it

I'll give you an analogy
When we have opportunities at my work we generally promote warehouse workers to supervisors/managers. When that promotion comes it allows that person to have significant leeway in terms of how we handle unique situations that affect the guys on the floor. From time off to pay adjustments.

It's amazing the perception change when that occurs. Generally the guys on the floor feel like they get screwed. But when given an option of being generous to their former peers they snub them basically "oh I know that dude... he's taking advantage of us!"- this happens like clockwork.

Human behavior is truly fascinating to me

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this or what you are driving at.

The actual fact of the matter is that our government's policies have been functionally pushing further and further to the right since the New Deal. I'm not necessarily talking about all social issues, here. Protections from corporate maleficence, monopoly busting, protections for workers, tax rates of wealthy vs working class, huge upticks in Pentagon spending. And that's across both parties. Hell if you took the big, bad conservative boogieman in Obama and trotted him around the world, nearly everyone would see him as a right-leaning centrist. Because that's what he is in policy and action.

I agree with 99% of your statement.
I would argue slightly in terms of unions/protections for workers, etc. 1964 of the Civil Rights act was quite liberal. Unions began earning more political clout from the New Deal up until the 90's when it began waning.

Otherwise solid post

Modern society is almost a yo-yo. Why'd the Civil Rights Act come into play? Because people were being blatantly racist/sexist and took it way too far. Then there was a revolt to the other extreme where you have to basically prove you AREN"T a racist. We're a Federal Contractor and that's basically how it feels when you complete the form to send to the OFCCP. I feel like I'm being punished for the actions of the morons from the 1800's to 1964

Well here we have the police taking stuff too far and they rightfully need corrected. To what extreme? That's the scary part for me

 

[SouthGeorge]

 

[The Old Master]

There are two political parties in the US, right-wing and center-right. Massive tax cuts for the wealthy, complete deference to Wall Street, increased military and "defense" spending don't sound very liberal. Neoliberal maybe, like Saint Ronnie, sure.

if only the nation and the world woulds be so much better off.

 

[The Old Master]

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this or what you are driving at.

The actual fact of the matter is that our government's policies have been functionally pushing further and further to the right since the New Deal. I'm not necessarily talking about all social issues, here. Protections from corporate maleficence, monopoly busting, protections for workers, tax rates of wealthy vs working class, huge upticks in Pentagon spending. And that's across both parties. Hell if you took the big, bad conservative boogieman in Obama and trotted him around the world, nearly everyone would see him as a right-leaning centrist. Because that's what he is in policy and action.

when did start to cut spending? when have we cut the size of government? people keeping more of there own money.if it's not listed in the constitution wew have no business doing it.

 

[ColePens]

We are drifting here... reel it in. I don't care what party you prefer. It's not for this forum.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

If anyone knows anything about Martin Luther King check out his personal life. Cheating big time on his wife- pretty much openly.

Certainly one of the best men to ever walk in terms of equal rights, but by all accounts a bad husband. So should all the things he's done be thrown down the drain since he wasn't as pious as he was depicted? Where do you draw the line?

And if you ever want to read more about the depths of MLK and his killer, this is a beautiful read:
Hellhound on His Trail - Wikipedia

You equate cheating with slavery or treason?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

You equate cheating with slavery or treason?

Read my 4th sentence again

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Read my 4th sentence again

I did, what am I missing?

I draw the line on slavery, genocide, etc. Cheating on a spouse is a personal issue that has no bearing on our lives, so why did you use that example?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Don't blame me, I voted for Eugene V. Debs.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Don't blame me, I voted for Eugene V. Debs.

Unions eh?

I am a monarchist. I should be King.

Can we just agree kneeling on someone's neck for almost ten minutes is bad.

Burning, looting, killing and maybe even pulling down statues, including random ones that have zero to do with anything at issue is bad. Get your politicians to remove them.

And let's call it a day.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Unions eh?

I am a monarchist. I should be King.

Can we just agree kneeling on someone's neck for almost ten minutes is bad.

Burning, looting, killing and maybe even pulling down statues, including random ones that have zero to do with anything at issue is bad. Get your politicians to remove them.

And let's call it a day.

Ha. Best of luck with that.

Something tells me people have tried that, already. For a while.

 

[Jacob]

This is listed on their website as one of their beliefs:

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure

Not sure what that has to do with black lives mattering.