Crosby current all time center ranking?

[MXD]

This eventually I've heard for years. Year after year crosby puts up an elite season and yet nothing changes Sakic was a great player but he wasent THAT great.

And you'll continue to hear it for a few seasons. Not that I care.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I took at look at the Centers project and I'm not quite sure how 2013-14 was considered. The players Crosby compares very well to is probably Syl Apps, with Crosby getting a slight + for his more well-rounded game vs. Apps.

The more I think about it : Crosby passed Apps and doesn't need to do much to pass Yzerman (he basically has to play hockey and not turn into Zenon Konopka). I'd tentatively put him between Lalonde and Apps, if anything.

Vs is a metric that is obviously benificial as a base.

War years are adjusted why exactly?

Oh yes that thing called Context.

Sadly your commenting on my context as high jacking doesn't add to the discussion.

It's pretty plain with Dionne having a higher Vs than many players that VsX needs some context right?

One can disagree on the level of context but using the term high jacking just discourses serious discussion on the topic of Crosby who, like it or not, plays in a much different context than many other players on the top of the VsX metric.

 

[MXD]

Sadly your commenting on my context as high jacking doesn't add to the discussion.

It's pretty plain with Dionne having a higher Vs than many players that VsX needs some context right?

One can disagree on the level of context but using the term high jacking just discourses serious discussion on the topic of Crosby who, like it or not, plays in a much different context than many other players on the top of the VsX metric.

C'mon Hardy, that's one of the few times that my snarky comments wasn't targeting you at all!

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Longevity? Crosby is working on his 7th top 3 scoring finish in 11 years. The seasons in which he didn't finish top 3 he was top 3 in ppg

And Sakic and Yzerman were great for players for literally twice as long, at a level not far off Crosby's. We're not comparing him to a Ron Francis type who was clearly well below Crosby's level.

Contributing to championship teams?

Crosby has two finals appearances with a cup win while posted 27 and 31 point runs for a combined 58 points in 44 games in consecutive years. Crosby also scored in both Olympic finals scoring the OT winner in 2010
He's also part of the triple gold club

That's all great. But it's not as great as the full body of work crafted by Sakic and Yzerman yet.

Leadership?... Well leadership is not a hockey skill. It's more of a personal trait.

Leadership is an important aspect of any team. I guess we don't have a stat for it, so best just ignore it eh?

Crosby is no slouch defensively and is great on draws etc.

The same can be said of Sakic and Yzerman over the second half of their careers.

 

[Son Goku]

How can you compare leadership qualities? Nobody is in that locker room or on that bench with those players so we don't really know.

 

[daver]

And Sakic and Yzerman were great for players for literally twice as long, at a level not far off Crosby's. We're not comparing him to a Ron Francis type who was clearly well below Crosby's level.

He has surpassed them in the number of elite seasons (Top Ten Art Ross finishes) each of them put up. That should hold some significance or at least be recognized in this discussion.

Crosby has been the greater player without a doubt at this stage of his career.

 

[daver]

Leadership is an important aspect of any team. I guess we don't have a stat for it, so best just ignore it eh?

Crosby's leadership resume:

Youngest Captain to lift the Cup
Captained 2014 Olympic team to the most dominant win in the NHL era and perhaps ever in intl hockey.
Captianed Team Canada to its first WHC in many years and in the most dominant fashion in many years
Has admirabky served as the face of the NHL since 2005

Don't see much there that would take away from him in comparison to Sakic or Yzerman. Certainly nothing that would overcome his clearly better offensive resume.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The bolded is completely subjective. Longevity should eventually be trumped by superior per game play. And Crosby has two Conn Smythe-worthy Cup runs.

Yes, eventually it should. Crosby has only played half as long as the guys he's being compared to. He certainly hasn't been twice as good as them. Sakic and Yzerman were among the very best players in the game for most of their careers, something that seems to be getting downplayed. They are top-tier Hall of Famers. If a guy with only half their careers is ranked above them, he better have been dominating at a Lemieux-like level, not losing scoring races to a Sedin and Benn.

 

[daver]

Yes, eventually it should. Crosby has only played half as long as the guys he's being compared to. He certainly hasn't been twice as good as them. Sakic and Yzerman were among the very best players in the game for most of their careers, something that seems to be getting downplayed. They are top-tier Hall of Famers. If a guy with only half their careers is ranked above them, he better have been dominating at a Lemieux-like level, not losing scoring races to a Sedin and Benn.

Pretty sure an all-time ranking goes a bit deeper than this.

I am going to guess you are not a fan of Crosby.

It is pretty superficial of you to point out that in Crosby's worst season in the NHL he finished 3 points behind a player who is now making a case for being the league's best. And Sedin's 2009/10 season is better than all but a couple of Sakic's and Yzerman's.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

He has surpassed them in the number of elite seasons (Top Ten Art Ross finishes) each of them put up. That should hold some significance or at least be recognized in this discussion.

An elite season is rigidly limited to a certain scoring placement? Not in my books.

Crosby has been the greater player without a doubt at this stage of his career.

Yeah that's been repeated several times and nobody has disagreed.

 

[MXD]

What's the problem with "not being a fan" of Crosby?

That's a much better premise to a discussion than "being a fan" of Crosby...

 

[Hardyvan123]

C'mon Hardy, that's one of the few times that my snarky comments wasn't targeting you at all!

All apologies then rough week at work here maybe I'm a little testy...lol

 

[BenchBrawl]

What's the problem with "not being a fan" of Crosby?

That's a much better premise to a discussion than "being a fan" of Crosby...

I'm very neutral about Crosby, I don'tl ike or dislike him, but he 's the most impressive offensive center outside of Lemieux/Gretzky and hence why I rank him around 11th of all-time.

 

[MXD]

I'm very neutral about Crosby, I don'tl ike or dislike him, but he 's the most impressive offensive center outside of Lemieux/Gretzky and hence why I rank him around 11th of all-time.

That's what I meant. I mean, I'd rank him slightly below 11th if we're to follow the 2013-14 list and just plug in Crosby somewhere, in all (relative) indifference. I don't care more about him than about Sakic or (certainly not) Yzerman. I just don't see a better career at this point.

If Stevie Y would've went out the way, say, Trottier did... Of course I'd have Crosby ahead of Stevie Y.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That's what I meant. I mean, I'd rank him slightly below 11th if we're to follow the 2013-14 list and just plug in Crosby somewhere, in all (relative) indifference. I don't care more about him than about Sakic or (certainly not) Yzerman. I just don't see a better career at this point.

If Stevie Y would've went out the way, say, Trottier did... Of course I'd have Crosby ahead of Stevie Y.

Fair enough if you like Yzerman's career more than what Crosby did at this point.I don't.I'm not predicting or projecting what Crosby is going to do in the future in my evaluation, just that Crosby has been too dominant for too long on a per-game basis compared to Yzerman while being a better all-around player in the process (compared to when Yzerman was in his offensive prime, I'm aware Yzerman was better defensively later on, but he wasn't that great offensively by that point).

I guess I'm open to change my mind if we discuss both players more in depth but as of now what Crosby did is just more impressive to me.

 

[Thenameless]

I'm very neutral about Crosby, I don'tl ike or dislike him, but he 's the most impressive offensive center outside of Lemieux/Gretzky and hence why I rank him around 11th of all-time.

I agree with this sentiment, being neutral on Crosby myself. I think if Crosby and Sakic had played in the same era (whether wide open, DPE, or somewhere in between) Crosby's offensive superiority to Sakic would be pretty evident. I'm more of a Sakic fan by the way.

 

[quoipourquoi]

How can you compare leadership qualities? Nobody is in that locker room or on that bench with those players so we don't really know.

Quotes from coaches and teammates. Composure in the face of adversity. For instance, how would Joe Sakic react if he were in the 2012 Flyers series?

 

[daver]

Yeah that's been repeated several times and nobody has disagreed.

For some that is good enough to rank players higher than others. When it is evident that a player was better than another. For others, career value is weighed higher.

I don't have a strong opinion on either except that it should be just a matter of time before Crosby to surpass Sakic and Yzerman. There really is not left more for Crosby to prove in comparison to those two.

I do find the playoff argument irritating as it seems only Crosby's best playoff runs or playoff series are held to a different standard than the other two.

 

[MXD]

I agree with this sentiment, being neutral on Crosby myself. I think if Crosby and Sakic had played in the same era (whether wide open, DPE, or somewhere in between) Crosby's offensive superiority to Sakic would be pretty evident. I'm more of a Sakic fan by the way.

I don't think anyone is saying anything to the contrary either.

 

[daver]

Quotes from coaches and teammates. Composure in the face of adversity. For instance, how would Joe Sakic react if he were in the 2012 Flyers series?

I do find the playoff argument irritating as it seems only Crosby's best playoff runs or playoff series are held to a different standard than the other two.

Case in point. Crosby gets in a scrap to get his team going. While he wasn't playing great that series, MAF especially and Malkin were much bigger disappointments. What's the difference between this and being invisible in a series which happened to Sakic and Yzerman.

 

[daver]

Quotes from coaches and teammates. Composure in the face of adversity. For instance, how would Joe Sakic react if he were in the 2012 Flyers series?

How do you think Sakic and Yzerman's teams would have reacted if they made the effort to round out their games as early as Crosby did in his career?

 

[bobholly39]

I do find the playoff argument irritating as it seems only Crosby's best playoff runs or playoff series are held to a different standard than the other two.

There's no question in my mind Sidney Crosby is held to a different standard than almost anyone else in NHL history. It sorta speaks to how high he might one day rank.

Lemieux got it too, and Gretzky. Just look at how Lemieux lost the Hart trophy in 89 (if Joe Sakic or Yzerman scored 199 points - 100% they would win the Hart because no one would expect it of them, but for Lemieux it was just Lemieux being Lemieux), or how Gretzky lost the pearson in 86 (215 points - yet somehow Lemieux won it). I could say the same for Gretzky losing out on some Conn Smythes that i think he deserved above others.


I mean - Crosby is about to finish top 3 or so in scoring this year - yet it's a disappointing, "down" year. If Sakic or Yzerman or even Forsberg finished 3rd in scoring it would be one of their best season, and there would likely be a lot of push for them to get strong hart votes some would say. Yet for Crosby, it's a down year.

Jagr actually gets the same treatment too. He gets unnecessary flak for his "down" years in Washington.

 

[MXD]

I mean - Crosby is about to finish top 3 or so in scoring this year - yet it's a disappointing, "down" year. If Sakic or Yzerman or even Forsberg finished 3rd in scoring it would be one of their best season, and there would likely be a lot of push for them to get strong hart votes some would say. Yet for Crosby, it's a down year.

Underlined : Disappointing according to whom, exactly?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Underlined : Disappointing according to whom, exactly?

It's only disappointing because it has become clear he's not winning the Art Ross due to Johnston and the same was true last year.

 

[MXD]

It's only disappointing because it has become clear he's not winning the Art Ross due to Johnston and the same was true last year.

Well... Maybe. But anywhere between 2nd and 8th is actually very good. It won't be Crosby's best year, but I don't think we can't expect 06-07 every year either.