Crosby current all time center ranking?

[One Winged Angel]

Having Forsberg so high is a huge red flag in your list (same with Malkin).

Also missing some players like Taylor, Boucher, Lalonde, Nighbor, which are all ahead of Forsberg no matter how you look at it.

Forsberg is probably the 2nd most complete player I've ever seen. Messier the first. Forsberg was dominant offensively and was a superb all-around talent. One of the best two-way centers ever at his peak, up there with Fedorov, Datsyuk, Gilmour (3 of the 4 players to score 90+ points and win a Selke in the same season).

I don't understand the flak Forsberg gets around here. I understand the longevity and durability issues, but the guy accomplished a lot at the NHL level despite those issues and was clearly one of the top 3-5 best players in the league at any given time throughout his career.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Not sure but Sid could very well be in the top 5 of VsX as of the end of last season, definitely top 10.

Crosby posted his best VsX score with the Art Ross win in 2014 with 119.5, and 2015 left him with his fifth best VsX score in 97.7.

That moves him up to 101.5 for his VsX 7

The weights were ditched moving forward so a new list looks like:

1|Gretzky|154.7
2|Esposito|122.9
3|Lemieux|119.8
4|Beliveau|108.5
5|Mikita|107.8
6|Dionne|102.7
7|Morenz|102.2
8|Crosby|101.5
9|Sakic|97.7
10|Cowley|97.0

Cowley's standing fell as fudges were refined for the war years, leading to more punitive standards.

I hate the playing midseason what-if game, but if the season ended today Crosby's VsX score would be his 8th best score meaning his VsX7 wouldn't change.

Also, it will be really difficult for him to crack the top five. He'd need to win multiple Art Rosses by solid margins. Even having five scores of 100 (which essentially means second place finishes with the tight scoring we routinely see) to bookend his two Art Rosses he'd only bump up to 103.5. The only other option would be one Art Ross win by a Gretzky-like margin of dominance...good luck with that Sid.

 

[The Panther]

I don't understand the flak Forsberg gets around here. I understand the longevity and durability issues, but the guy accomplished a lot at the NHL level despite those issues and was clearly one of the top 3-5 best players in the league at any given time throughout his career.

I think this might be because of 2 or 3 posters who have gone on so much and at such lengths about Forsberg that everyone on here got sick of hearing about him. Call it the intra-Forum backlash.

I do agree that he was a tremendous player, one of the greatest of his age. He was actually quite Crosby-ish because, like Crosby he: (a) played with another huge offensive talent on his team, (b) made 2 trips to the Final, but was a non-contributor to the second (not that Crosby was a non-contributor in '09, but he was a lesser one and missed much of game 7), and (c) was frequently injured quite seriously, costing him year-end scoring titles and probably some hardware.

Forsberg was more entertaining to watch than Crosby, though. I mean, I like Crosby, but everything about him is as dull as dishwater -- his personality and his playing style, both.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Crosby posted his best VsX score with the Art Ross win in 2014 with 119.5, and 2015 left him with his fifth best VsX score in 97.7.

That moves him up to 101.5 for his VsX 7

The weights were ditched moving forward so a new list looks like:

1|Gretzky|154.7
2|Esposito|122.9
3|Lemieux|119.8
4|Beliveau|108.5
5|Mikita|107.8
6|Dionne|102.7
7|Morenz|102.2
8|Crosby|101.5
9|Sakic|97.7
10|Cowley|97.0

Cowley's standing fell as fudges were refined for the war years, leading to more punitive standards.

I hate the playing midseason what-if game, but if the season ended today Crosby's VsX score would be his 8th best score meaning his VsX7 wouldn't change.

Also, it will be really difficult for him to crack the top five. He'd need to win multiple Art Rosses by solid margins. Even having five scores of 100 (which essentially means second place finishes with the tight scoring we routinely see) to bookend his two Art Rosses he'd only bump up to 103.5. The only other option would be one Art Ross win by a Gretzky-like margin of dominance...good luck with that Sid.

Pretty crazy to see Dionne so high when he never won an Art Ross outright (tied with rookie Gretzky in 1979-80).

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby posted his best VsX score with the Art Ross win in 2014 with 119.5, and 2015 left him with his fifth best VsX score in 97.7.

That moves him up to 101.5 for his VsX 7

The weights were ditched moving forward so a new list looks like:

1|Gretzky|154.7
2|Esposito|122.9
3|Lemieux|119.8
4|Beliveau|108.5
5|Mikita|107.8
6|Dionne|102.7
7|Morenz|102.2
8|Crosby|101.5
9|Sakic|97.7
10|Cowley|97.0

Cowley's standing fell as fudges were refined for the war years, leading to more punitive standards.

I hate the playing midseason what-if game, but if the season ended today Crosby's VsX score would be his 8th best score meaning his VsX7 wouldn't change.

Also, it will be really difficult for him to crack the top five. He'd need to win multiple Art Rosses by solid margins. Even having five scores of 100 (which essentially means second place finishes with the tight scoring we routinely see) to bookend his two Art Rosses he'd only bump up to 103.5. The only other option would be one Art Ross win by a Gretzky-like margin of dominance...good luck with that Sid.

Yes it will be difficult due to the makeup of thee league and injuries and that he is already 28 and his best seasons are probably behind him.

If we use the Canadian standard he would get top 5 status pretty easily, the fact that there are elite Russians, Czechs, Americans and swedes in the league hurt his case.

05-06 he scores 102 points, Thorton is first with 125 then
Jagr 123
AO 110
Alfie and heatley at 103 and then sid at 102.

so a .829 would go to a .990 heck even if we only split the difference it would go to a .9095.

08-09 its

Malkin 112
AO 110
Crosby 103
Dats 97
Parise 94
Getzlaf 91

09-10

H Sedin 112
AO 109
Crosby 109
Backstrom 101
Stamkos 95

Again quite the difference.

This year top 10 scoring includes 3 guys from the USA, 2 swedes and a Russian.

When was the last time that happened?

Context really does matter and is quite different from different eras.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Pretty crazy to see Dionne so high when he never won an Art Ross outright (tied with rookie Gretzky in 1979-80).

The biggest difference is that Dionne played in seasons were you could post VsX scores over 100 if you finished second or third in scoring.

Dionne has three VsX scores over 110, but finished second in scoring each time (including that tie). From 2006 to 2015, only three Art Ross winners posted scores that high: Crosby in 2014, Malkin in 2012, and Thornton in 2006.

In that same window from 2006-2015, Jagr in 2006 is the only player to finish second in scoring and receive a VsX score over 100 (with 116!).

Switching to third place scorers for this time frame, you have Ovechkin with a 100 VsX score for his 3rd place finish in 2006 but no one else meeting that benchmark.

In Dionne's four best seasons (1977, 1980, 1979, 1975), the second place scorer received VsX scores of 116.2, 115.1, 112, and 105.

The third place scorer received VsX scores of 100, 105, 111.2, and 100.

Basically it pays to be part of a group that is all ahead of the pack. As this rarely happens anymore, the only option for an elite scorer to put up big VsX scores today is to stomp everyone else.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Yes it will be difficult due to the makeup of thee league and injuries and that he is already 28 and his best seasons are probably behind him.

If we use the Canadian standard he would get top 5 status pretty easily, the fact that there are elite Russians, Czechs, Americans and swedes in the league hurt his case.

05-06 he scores 102 points, Thorton is first with 125 then
Jagr 123
AO 110
Alfie and heatley at 103 and then sid at 102.

so a .829 would go to a .990 heck even if we only split the difference it would go to a .9095.

Check my post above, Ovechkin set the standard here, not Jagr. Crosby's score was 96.23. I have no interest in the Canadian standard, but to humor you...Crosby would receive a score of 99 yes.

08-09 its

Malkin 112
AO 110
Crosby 103
Dats 97
Parise 94
Getzlaf 91

He's at 93.64, Canadian standard he's at 113.2.

09-10

H Sedin 112
AO 109
Crosby 109
Backstrom 101
Stamkos 95

He's at 100, goes to 114.7.

Again quite the difference.

This year top 10 scoring includes 3 guys from the USA, 2 swedes and a Russian.

When was the last time that happened?

Context really does matter and is quite different from different eras.

If I make all those changes, that I fundamentally disagree with, he goes to 106.8 for his VsX7. That's definitely a significant gap, but he still slots in at six place all-time.

If we say he fills in the rest of his seven best scores with 100s, he still falls short of Mikita by a decimal for fifth place. That top five exists because they were really that good, not that they were propped up by a lack of context.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby won't rise in the VsX list but it's already clear he's at worst the 4th best per-game producer in that group, and as far as I'm concerned he's the 3rd best because I think he's better than Esposito.

Edit: So what I am pretending is that Crosby is the most offensively dominant non-Gretzky/Lemieux center of all-time when he's on the ice.I think that helps his all-time case more than the ''Canadian Standard'' thing argued above.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Points as % of "average first liner" (top 3N scorers; N = # of teams):

Average of...

Best 3 Seasons
Dionne 163%
Malkin 162%
Thornton 157%
Crosby 157%
Yzerman 156%
Sakic 154%
Trottier 154%
Forsberg 151%
Lindros 149%
Stastny 145%

Best 5 Seasons
Dionne 158%
Crosby 151%
Sakic 150%
Thornton 149%
Yzerman 146%
Forsberg 144%
Malkin 143%
Trottier 143%

Best 7 Seasons
Dionne 151%
Crosby 145%
Sakic 145%
Thornton 141%
Yzerman 139%
Forsberg 137%
Trottier 135%
Malkin 135%

Once you go much past that, Sakic has a clear advantage over Crosby.

Crosby has won two Rosses and finished second once. The only time really stiff competition cost him a top two finish may have been in 2009, when he finished third to Malkin & Ovechkin.

Sakic finished second to Jagr, third to Lemieux & Jagr, fourth behind Jagr & Lindros, and second another time.

It seems to me that their peaks and short primes are pretty even. Sakic has the clear advantage in extended prime, career, and playoff performance, so Crosby has a ways to go to if he wants to clearly pass him.

 

[daver]

Points as % of "average first liner" (top 3N scorers; N = # of teams):

Average of...

Best 3 Seasons
Dionne 163%
Malkin 162%
Thornton 157%
Crosby 157%
Yzerman 156%
Sakic 154%
Trottier 154%
Forsberg 151%
Lindros 149%
Stastny 145%

Best 5 Seasons
Dionne 158%
Crosby 151%
Sakic 150%
Thornton 149%
Yzerman 146%
Forsberg 144%
Malkin 143%
Trottier 143%

Best 7 Seasons
Dionne 151%
Crosby 145%
Sakic 145%
Thornton 141%
Yzerman 139%
Forsberg 137%
Trottier 135%
Malkin 135%

Once you go much past that, Sakic has a clear advantage over Crosby.

Crosby has won two Rosses and finished second once. The only time really stiff competition cost him a top two finish may have been in 2009, when he finished third to Malkin & Ovechkin.

Sakic finished second to Jagr, third to Lemieux & Jagr, fourth behind Jagr & Lindros, and second another time.

It seems to me that their peaks and short primes are pretty even. Sakic has the clear advantage in extended prime, career, and playoff performance, so Crosby has a ways to go to if he wants to clearly pass him.

This doesn't pass the eye test. Crosby's worst seasons are Top 5 Art Ross finishes. Sakic's are much lower. Per game basis is not reflected here. Sakic's best seasons came at a time that favoured the elite scorers of the league which introduces a statistical bias into your numbers.

It has already been shown that Crosby's place compared to the pack after 11 seasons based on career PPG would challenge any other forward's beside Wayne and Mario. Sakic is not among those who would be in this group. It is not debatable that Crosby is better than Sakic and should pass him soon, if not already.


EDIT: Even harder to accept these numbers when questionable statements like "The only time really stiff competition cost him a top two finish may have been in 2009, when he finished third to Malkin & Ovechkin" accompany your findings. There is no reason to think that along with peak Malkin and OV, Thornton in 2005/6, Sedin in 2009/10 and Kane this year would not be challenging Jagr for Art Rosses in Sakic's era.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Edit: So what I am pretending is that Crosby is the most offensively dominant non-Gretzky/Lemieux center of all-time when he's on the ice. I think that helps his all-time case more than the ''Canadian Standard'' thing argued above.

Possibly but anything would help his all-time case more than the "Canadian Standard" thing because it's a made up term that has no credibility and means absolutely nothing!

 

[Rhiessan71]

This doesn't pass the eye test. Crosby's worst seasons are Top 5 Art Ross finishes. Sakic's are much lower.

Because Sakic had to face much steeper competition as Czech not only stated but also backed up with fact that of course, you promptly ignored and typed this paragraph anyway heh

Per game basis is not reflected here. Sakic's best seasons came at a time that favoured the elite scorers of the league which introduces a statistical bias into your numbers.

It has already been shown that Crosby's place compared to the pack after 11 seasons based on career PPG would challenge any other forward's beside Wayne and Mario. Sakic is not among those who would be in this group.

Simply put, Sakic faced one of the stronger "packs" in league history while Crosby's "pack" leaves much to be desired.

It is not debatable that Crosby is better than Sakic and should pass him soon, if not already.

Except Sakic's ranking is based on his entire 20 year/1378 game/172 PO game career.
Will Crosby make 20 seasons. Even hitting 1000 games could be questionable.

Even if he does 20 seasons, I doubt that Crosby's number of seasons of advantage over Joe will be more than what the number of seasons Joe has advantage over Crosby. (Get ready for some doozey PpG arguments folks hahaha!)
Not to mention that Sakic's PO resume will most likely hold supreme over Crosby's.

Bottomline...11 seasons, many of which are only partial seasons, is not even close to enough to overtake Joe or Stevie for that matter.
To even suggest that Crosby's partial 11 seasons is enough to overtake the FULL career's of Sakic/Yzerman is just downright insulting to both players and the FULL and extensive careers they had.

When Joe and Stevie lost a step, they found other ways to continue to be Elite players and be successful, it most certainly remains to be seen if Crosby can do the same.

 

[daver]

Because Sakic had to face much steeper competition as Czech not only stated but also backed up with fact that of course, you promptly ignored and typed this paragraph anyway heh

Simply put, Sakic faced one of the stronger "packs" in league history while Crosby's "pack" leaves much to be desired.

This can never be anything but 100% subjective and as has been pointed out many, many, many times, higher point totals =/= better and adjusted stats are statistically biased. Mario and Wayne are the only players that should be reasonably removed in an analysis of Sakic's career.

Based on Art Ross finishes sans Wayne and Mario, here are Sakic's Top Ten results:

90/01 - 5th place
91/82 - 4th in PPG after 69 games
94/95 - 4th place
95/96 - 2nd place
98/99 - 5th place
99/00 - 8th place (2nd in PPG)
00/01 - 2nd place
01/02 - 5th place
03/04 - 3rd place

So we have seven Top Ten Finishes - 2,2,3,4,5,5,8 - AVG. finish 4th

Add in a reasonable extrapolation of PPG in two of those seasons and he has eight Top Ten finishes - 2,2,2,3,4,4,5,5 - Avg. finish 3rd

Crosby

05/06 - 6th
06/07 - 1st
07/08 - 2nd in PPG
08/09 - 3rd
09/10 - 2nd
10/11 - 1st in PPG
12/13 - 4th (1st in PPG)
13/14 - 1st
14/15 - 3rd
15/16 - 5th (est.)

So we have eight Top Ten Finishes - 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,6 - AVG. finish 3rd

Add in a reasonable extrapolation of PPG in three of those seasons and he has ten Top Ten finishes - 1,1, 1, 1, 2, 2,3, 3, 5,6 - Avg. finish 2nd/3rd (2.5)

By either measure, Crosby is statistically ahead of Sakic in the regular season based on Top Ten Art Ross finishes.

 

[daver]

Simply put, Sakic faced one of the stronger "packs" in league history while Crosby's "pack" leaves much to be desired.

If by "pack" you mean the Top 20 scorers in the league, then prove this statement statistically.

 

[daver]

Even if he does 20 seasons, I doubt that Crosby's number of seasons of advantage over Joe will be more than what the number of seasons Joe has advantage over Crosby. (Get ready for some doozey PpG arguments folks hahaha!).

Funny you should bring up this topic.

So which player would you rate higher?

Player A beat Player B in raw points in 10 out of 19 seasons they went head to head against each other and has more career points.

Would you rate Player A ahead of Player B?

 

[daver]

Points as % of "average first liner" (top 3N scorers; N = # of teams):

Average of...

Best 3 Seasons
Dionne 163%
Malkin 162%
Thornton 157%
Crosby 157%
Yzerman 156%
Sakic 154%
Trottier 154%
Forsberg 151%
Lindros 149%
Stastny 145%

Best 5 Seasons
Dionne 158%
Crosby 151%
Sakic 150%
Thornton 149%
Yzerman 146%
Forsberg 144%
Malkin 143%
Trottier 143%

Best 7 Seasons
Dionne 151%
Crosby 145%
Sakic 145%
Thornton 141%
Yzerman 139%
Forsberg 137%
Trottier 135%
Malkin 135%.

Bottomline...11 seasons, many of which are only partial seasons, is not even close to enough to overtake Joe or Stevie for that matter.
To even suggest that Crosby's partial 11 seasons is enough to overtake the FULL career's of Sakic/Yzerman is just downright insulting to both players and the FULL and extensive careers they had.

When Joe and Stevie lost a step, they found other ways to continue to be Elite players and be successful, it most certainly remains to be seen if Crosby can do the same.

I am confused as to why you are lumping in Yzerman with Sakic, the chart above clearly shows Sakic ahead of Yzerman in 5 and 7 seasons.

Do you agree that Sakic is clearly above Yzerman as much as Sakic is clearly Crosby's equal?

 

[MXD]

I took at look at the Centers project and I'm not quite sure how 2013-14 was considered. The players Crosby compares very well to is probably Syl Apps, with Crosby getting a slight + for his more well-rounded game vs. Apps.

The more I think about it : Crosby passed Apps and doesn't need to do much to pass Yzerman (he basically has to play hockey and not turn into Zenon Konopka). I'd tentatively put him between Lalonde and Apps, if anything.

 

[bobholly39]

(As to the one saying he's the third center of all-time.... LOL, let us know when the space-ship lands.)

Not sure if this was directed at me - but i think i'm the one who started saying he'd be #3 in this thread, and don't remember if anyone else said that too, so I assume you're talking to me.

Just to be clear - i'm saying as of age 28. Put Crosby at age 28 against any other center in history at age 28 - and Crosby looks very, very good (outside of Gretzky/Lemieux).

Is that what you're disagreeing with? Or was someone actually suggesting Crosby should be #3 right now if he retired today? Because if it's the former - i don't even think it's controversial.

Who looks better than Crosby at age 28? Maybe there's 1-2 guys, but i would expect it's at the very least very close, and wouldn't be surprised if Crosby is actually ahead.

 

[MXD]

Not sure if this was directed at me - but i think i'm the one who started saying he'd be #3 in this thread, and don't remember if anyone else said that too, so I assume you're talking to me.

Just to be clear - i'm saying as of age 28. Put Crosby at age 28 against any other center in history at age 28 - and Crosby looks very, very good (outside of Gretzky/Lemieux).

At age 28...

Well, Beliveau and Mikita do look quite better than he does. I do think Trottier look better than him too (because otherwise there would've been no reason to rank him that high to begin with). Clarke is probably definitely ahead of Crosby as well. I guess the same could be said for Morenz.

Crosby is certainly ahead of Yzerman, Nighbor, Esposito and Messier (I can't even see how this could be questionned). I don't see how Sakic could be ahead of Crosby by 28 either.

You'll notice that, from the first group, Beliveau and Morenz are the only ones who really added a lot past 28 (and Morenz didn't add a lot for many years either). Nothing against what Mikita, Clarke and Trottier did after 28, but none of these players are actually remembered for what they did after 28. Clarke won a Selke, never got any significant Hart recognition and cracked 20 goals only once (Clarke never was the greatest goalscorer anyways, but if you ignore his rookie season, he always cracked 20, and got at least 30 goals 4 times) -- maybe that could be explained by changes in usage patterns, but the guy getting those opportunities (Linsman) was nothing special in the great scheme of things. Mikita remained a very important Hawk if anything, and Trottier carved himself a nice niche as a depth player/3rd liner.

You'll also notice that players in the second group ended adding quite a bit past 28. Yzerman became the two-way Yzerman, Esposito won a Hart, three Art Rosses and the lead the league in goalscoring 4 times (not to mention Summit Series), Nighbor capitained its team to a few Cups, won a Hart and two Lady Byng (relevant for him at that time) and was the best defensive player in the league for about 8 seasons, we all know what Messier did starting from 89-90, and Sakic was about midway into his 17 seasons prime.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's really nostalgia putting Sakic over crosby. Even removing lemieux crosby trumps Sakic in ppg finishes and elite scoring finishes.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It's really nostalgia putting Sakic over crosby. Even removing lemieux crosby trumps Sakic in ppg finishes and elite scoring finishes.

So is anything besides scoring stats to be taken into consideration?

This thread has basically turned into a personal stat recital. I guess longevity, leadership, defensive play, contributions to championship teams, etc. are no longer important factors to consider.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

So is anything besides scoring stats to be taken into consideration?

This thread has basically turned into a personal stat recital. I guess longevity, leadership, defensive play, contributions to championship teams, etc. are no longer important factors to consider.

Longevity? Crosby is working on his 7th top 3 scoring finish in 11 years. The seasons in which he didn't finish top 3 he was top 3 in ppg

Contributing to championship teams?

Crosby has two finals appearances with a cup win while posted 27 and 31 point runs for a combined 58 points in 44 games in consecutive years. Crosby also scored in both Olympic finals scoring the OT winner in 2010
He's also part of the triple gold club

Leadership?... Well leadership is not a hockey skill. It's more of a personal trait.

Crosby is no slouch defensively and is great on draws etc.

 

[daver]

So is anything besides scoring stats to be taken into consideration?

This thread has basically turned into a personal stat recital. I guess longevity, leadership, defensive play, contributions to championship teams, etc. are no longer important factors to consider.

The bolded is completely subjective. Longevity should eventually be trumped by superior per game play. And Crosby has two Conn Smythe-worthy Cup runs.

 

[MXD]

The bolded is completely subjective. Longevity should eventually be trumped by superior per game play. And Crosby has two Conn Smythe-worthy Cup runs.

... eventually, indeed.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

... eventually, indeed.

This eventually I've heard for years. Year after year crosby puts up an elite season and yet nothing changes Sakic was a great player but he wasent THAT great.