Crosby current all time center ranking?

[MXD]

I was saying combining two straight seasons to use as a metric for playoff peak doesn't make sense.

It is unfair for players whose teams didn't have two deep playoff runs in a row.

And I was using two straight seasons to make Crosby look better versus Gilmour.

 

[Voight]

So do many d-men in comparison to Orr.

How many more years of playing at a higher level than Sakic's prime will it take to surpass him?

Sakic had a 17 year prime. Crosby may not even play 17 seasons.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Team accomplishments =/= player accomplishments. The Pens were never as good as the Wings or Avs. I bet you cannot find a Cup winner in NHL history that was so reliant on two players for offense than the Pens were in '09. The Pens only win a series if at least one of Crosby or Malkin is playing out of their minds. Sakic and Yzerman had a lot more talent to rely on to the their multiple Cups.

But by the same token, the Penguins haven't had teams as good as the Wings or Avs standing in their way in the East either. Crosby gets full marks for 2009, but his performance has left us wanting against good teams since then.

And shouldn't you be saying that Crosby is ahead of Yzerman at this point if counting Cups is so important?

I don't think it's really debatable that he's ahead of Yzerman if we're only looking at the first 11 years of each player. But Yzerman's second decade was arguably better than his first, it's not like he fell off the map, just the opposite.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here's my ranking on top of my head:

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Mario Lemieux
3.Jean Béliveau
4.Howie Morenz
5.Stan Mikita
6.Mark Messier
7.Bobby Clarke
8.Frank Nighbor
9.Phil Esposito
10.Cyclone Taylor
11.Sidney Crosby
12.Bryan Trottier
13.Joe Sakic
14.Newsy Lalonde
15.Frank Boucher
16.Henri Richard
17.Steve Yzerman
18.Syl Apps Sr.
19.Marcel Dionne
20.Peter Forsberg

I'm pretty sure this is a fairly standard list except Crosby, but I expect Crosby to meet resistence anytime he is to rise above X or Y player in the range he's now at.Of course I could easily switch some of them after a 10 minutes conversation, I did this quickly on the fly.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Here's my ranking on top of my head:

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Mario Lemieux
3.Jean Béliveau
4.Howie Morenz
5.Stan Mikita
6.Mark Messier
7.Bobby Clarke
8.Frank Nighbor
9.Phil Esposito
10.Cyclone Taylor
11.Sidney Crosby
12.Bryan Trottier
13.Joe Sakic
14.Newsy Lalonde
15.Frank Boucher
16.Henri Richard
17.Steve Yzerman
18.Syl Apps Sr.
19.Marcel Dionne
20.Peter Forsberg

I'm pretty sure this is a fairly standard list except Crosby, but I expect Crosby to meet resistence anytime he is to rise above X or Y player in the range he's now at.Of course I could easily switch some of them after a 10 minutes conversation, I did this quickly on the fly.

Damn. The all time center list is so deep. I mean you have 3 of the top 5 players in history as the top 3. Bring top 20 is an honour itself.

 

[daver]

But by the same token, the Penguins haven't had teams as good as the Wings or Avs standing in their way in the East either. Crosby gets full marks for 2009, but his performance has left us wanting against good teams since then.

Let me guess. Bringing up series where he pretty won them singlehandedly don't count right? His team would not have had chance to advance if not for him.

I am curious, do you rate Jagr lower than Sakic and Yzerman based on their clearly better playoff resumes?

 

[MXD]

I don't think it's really debatable that he's ahead of Yzerman if we're only looking at the first 11 years of each player. But Yzerman's second decade was arguably better than his first, it's not like he fell off the map, just the opposite.

I think this is actually the right way to see that issue. Yzerman's prime as an offensive player was done starting from 94-95 (on top of my head), but he didn't finish his career as a compiling forward.

This view doesn't detract from the fact that Crosby will likely pass Yzerman at some point. I'd add that Crosby is quite the complete player himself anyways.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Let me guess. Bringing up series where he pretty won them singlehandedly don't count right? His team would not have had chance to advance if not for him.

Are we really heading down the "weak supporting cast" road with regards to Crosby? Good lord. Which series did Crosby single-handedly win for the Penguis? Certainly not any in the last five years.

I am curious, do you rate Jagr lower than Sakic and Yzerman based on their clearly better playoff resumes?

I think I'd have Jagr ahead of them, but it's not an open and shut case. Playoffs help Yzerman and Sakic close the gap, but in the end Jagr's offense in his prime blows them away. Jagr's offense is well ahead of Crosby's too, since that's probably where you're going next.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Crosby's last couple of seasons aren't doing him any favors as far as all-time rankings go. He's a pure point-producer and he's still in the tail end of his prime, he shouldn't be tailed by Johnny Gaudreau by one point and Joe Pavelski by three while tied for 4th in the scoring race.

 

[Czech Your Math]

BTW, as far as goals go, Crosby is actually the 2nd best goal scoring center of his career, not too far behind Stamkos, who gets literally half as many assists per game.

It's arguable that Crosby in his prime is a better goal scorer "for a center" than Jagr or Lafleur was "for a winger".

I guess just about anything is arguable. Crosby has scored 40 goals once. He's not even the best goal-scoring center of his generation. Finishes in goals:

Crosby 1, 7
Stamkos 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 8
Malkin 2, 4

He has a .48 to .46 career GPG edge over Malkin.

Meanwhile, one has to go back to Gordie Howe to find a winger who compares favorably to Jagr's finishes in assists.
There was no winger in the same stratosphere as Jagr's APG in his prime (e.g., '94-'07 was Jagr .81 to Kariya .61).

 

[MXD]

Crosby's last couple of seasons aren't doing him any favors as far as all-time rankings go. He's a pure point-producer and he's still in the tail end of his prime, he shouldn't be tailed by Johnny Gaudreau by one point and Joe Pavelski by three while tied for 4th in the scoring race.

Bold : No.
Underlined : Hell no.

Last couple of seasons (let's say it means either the last two seasons OR the current season and the season) saw him win the Hart, Art Ross, Pearson, and the 1st AS Team at Center; then, 2nd AS at center with a 5th place for the Hart, and 3rd in points; then (this season) puts him on track for similar "finishes" as last season.

His Hart finishes statline already looks like this : 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. His 2nd place in Hart voting also coincided with winning the Lindsay/Pearson.

To gain ranks in our rankings, he has to pass guys like Syl Apps and Henri Richard. He certainly barely gains ground on Lemieux, but that's not the standard he has to meet.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Bold : No.
Underlined : Hell no.

Last couple of seasons (let's say it means either the last two seasons OR the current season and the season) saw him win the Hart, Art Ross, Pearson, and the 1st AS Team at Center; then, 2nd AS at center with a 5th place for the Hart, and 3rd in points; then (this season) puts him on track for similar "finishes" as last season.

His Hart finishes statline already looks like this : 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. His 2nd place in Hart voting also coincided with winning the Lindsay.

To gain ranks in our rankings, he has to pass guys like Syl Apps and Henri Richard. He certainly barely gains ground on Lemieux, but that's not the standard he has to meet.

Pardon me, but if Sid has a spectacularly average back-9 for the kind of career he's had so far, his ranking goes DOWN, not up.

And I meant this season and the last.

 

[MXD]

I guess just about anything is arguable. Crosby has scored 40 goals once. He's not even the best goal-scoring center of his generation. Finishes in goals:

Crosby 1, 7
Stamkos 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 8
Malkin 2, 4

He has a .48 to .46 career GPG edge over Malkin.

Meanwhile, one has to go back to Gordie Howe to find a winger who compares favorably to Jagr's finishes in assists.
There was no winger in the same stratosphere as Jagr's APG in his prime (e.g., '94-'07 was Jagr .81 to Kariya .61).

I'm pretty sure 70ies was going on a pergame basis. Or else Stamkos wouldn't be ahead of Crosby to begin with.

 

[Hardyvan123]

it's really hard for me to compare current career to finished career.

ie - it's easy for me to compare Crosby at age 28 to Messier at age 28. But Crosby at age 28 to Messier's full career? That's so much harder.


I will say that looking at the top 10 all-time center list as ranked by this forum, I can't imagine Crosby not at the very least finishing top 5 center of all-time, assuming he can maintain a respectable level of play in the back half of his career.

So i'd have him ahead of everyone but Lemieux, gretzky, Morenz and Beliveau. And I think top 3 after Gretzky and Lemieux is still within his grasp - though it will take some "big" moments to surpass Beliveau. Whether a legendary playoff run, or a few more hart/ross trophies.

Agree that it is hard to compare a current player (maybe only halfway through his career) with retired guys.

that being said, he was ranked 22nd in the top centers project and surely he has passed several of those guys by now one would think?

When Crosby came up in the voting it was in round or vote #6 at the end of December 2013.

So he went on to complete 13/14 and 14/15 as well as what he has done this year since then.

A pretty strong case can be made that he is in the top 10-15 range right now IMO.

 

[MXD]

Pardon me, but if Sid has a spectacularly average back-9 for the kind of career he's had so far, his ranking goes DOWN, not up.

And I meant this season and the last.

Don't look now, but Crosby will finish this season with the roughly the same amount of games as Peter Forsberg, and won as many Pearson/Lindsays as Forsberg had Top-10 Hart finishes. Last season netted him a 2nd AS berth and he finished 5th in Hart voting. Something Peter Forsberg managed to do exactly ONCE in his career.

Please HF, can you find the middle ground between putting Crosby on Jean Beliveau level AND sending back Crosby to Max Bentley or Joe Thornton level?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Sakic had a 17 year prime. Crosby may not even play 17 seasons.

Define "prime" because crosbys scoring finishes blow sakics out of the water

 

[Hardyvan123]

Sakic had a 17 year prime. Crosby may not even play 17 seasons.

Yes he did but Crosby has a 11 year consecutive peak that very few players can even touch, maybe only a handfull on the centers list.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

I guess just about anything is arguable. Crosby has scored 40 goals once. He's not even the best goal-scoring center of his generation. Finishes in goals:

Crosby 1, 7
Stamkos 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 8
Malkin 2, 4

He has a .48 to .46 career GPG edge over Malkin.

Meanwhile, one has to go back to Gordie Howe to find a winger who compares favorably to Jagr's finishes in assists.
There was no winger in the same stratosphere as Jagr's APG in his prime (e.g., '94-'07 was Jagr .81 to Kariya .61).

In fairness, Crosby is fourth in goals per game since 2005-06:

Ovechkin: 0.62
Stamkos: 0.55
Kovalchuk: 0.52
Crosby: 0.48
Malkin: 0.46

Stamkos is just one of those rare goal-scoring centers rather than the usual (expected?) playmaker in the middle. Given that Crosby is a primarily a pass-first player, that's not bad. (In fact, that's really good.)

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Don't look now, but Crosby will finish this season with the roughly the same amount of games as Peter Forsberg, and won as many Pearson/Lindsays as Forsberg had Top-10 Hart finishes. Last season netted him a 2nd AS berth and he finished 5th in Hart voting. Something Peter Forsberg managed to do exactly ONCE in his career.

Please HF, can you find the middle ground between putting Crosby on Jean Beliveau level AND sending back Crosby to Max Bentley or Joe Thornton level?

Go figure, the lack of accomplishments actually set Forsberg back too, despite how clearly amazing of a player he was.

 

[MXD]

Go figure, the lack of accomplishments actually set Forsberg back too, despite how clearly amazing of a player he was.

It doesn't detract from the fact that Crosby won't become an all-time worst player if he's somehow average until the end of his career.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby's last couple of seasons aren't doing him any favors as far as all-time rankings go. He's a pure point-producer and he's still in the tail end of his prime, he shouldn't be tailed by Johnny Gaudreau by one point and Joe Pavelski by three while tied for 4th in the scoring race.

Why shouldn't he be tailed by Gaudreau or Pavelski who are very good players (elite this season)?

I mean its the 15-16 NHL where goals, points and separation is alot more difficult than it was in the past.

(mod)

 

[The Panther]

Everyone just give it up and wait about 6 years. It's impossible to rank a player like Crosby while he's still 28, because he's missed too much time. He's also one of the leading players in a new era (post-2010, anyway) of very low-scoring with only 1 player on each team who can score, on average (if that).

If his career followed a more standard Bryan Trottier-like quick start, prime (peak), and fall-off as on a parabola, and with years of healthy play, we could start to evaluate him. But none of those apply, so we can't. We have to wait at least more 6 more years.

(As to the one saying he's the third center of all-time.... LOL, let us know when the space-ship lands.)

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby's last couple of seasons aren't doing him any favors as far as all-time rankings go. He's a pure point-producer and he's still in the tail end of his prime, he shouldn't be tailed by Johnny Gaudreau by one point and Joe Pavelski by three while tied for 4th in the scoring race.

Bold : No.
Underlined : Hell no.

Last couple of seasons (let's say it means either the last two seasons OR the current season and the season) saw him win the Hart, Art Ross, Pearson, and the 1st AS Team at Center; then, 2nd AS at center with a 5th place for the Hart, and 3rd in points; then (this season) puts him on track for similar "finishes" as last season.

His Hart finishes statline already looks like this : 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. His 2nd place in Hart voting also coincided with winning the Lindsay/Pearson.

To gain ranks in our rankings, he has to pass guys like Syl Apps and Henri Richard. He certainly barely gains ground on Lemieux, but that's not the standard he has to meet.

Just to add to this (assuming that voters already took into account the 2103/14 season as he was voted in at the end of December 2013, and that's a very strong assumption as many voters would probably have him ranked as before that season but be that as it may)

so in the 2 season since voting this is how NHL scoring adds up.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

It's pretty hard to believe that being 2nd in points over any 2 year period in NHL history could be conceived as not helping any players all time ranking.

going back 3 years (as the initial lists were made in the summer before 2013-14 season and Crosby was at best 40 games into the 13/14 season when voting took place here are his stats compared to others.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points


Nnote this list is before the 13/14 season then Sid goes on to score 104 points to the 2nd best of 87.

Not sure but Sid could very well be in the top 5 of VsX as of the end of last season, definitely top 10.

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2013):

Rank Player Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 155.1
2 Phil Esposito 123.4
3 Mario Lemieux 120.4
4 Jean Beliveau 108.9
5 Stan Mikita 108.1
6 Bill Cowley* 103.5
7 Marcel Dionne 103.2
8 Howie Morenz 102.8
9 Joe Sakic 97.9
10 Frank Boucher 95.4
11 Elmer Lach* 95.4
12 Max Bentley* 94.9
13 Steve Yzerman 93.5
14 Bryan Trottier 93.5
15 Joe Thornton 93.3
16 Syl Apps Sr 93
17 Peter Forsberg 90.9
18 Nels Stewart 90.5
19 Sidney Crosby 90.4
20 Adam Oates 90.2
21 Marty Barry 89.9
22 Mark Messier 89.5
23 Norm Ullman 88.7
24 Jean Ratelle 88.5
25 Peter Stastny 88.3
26 Sid Abel 87.8
27 Bobby Clarke 87.6
28 Ron Francis 87.6
29 Milt Schmidt 87.5
30 Henri Richard 86.2
31 Dale Hawerchuk 85.9
32 Denis Savard 85.4
33 Eric Lindros 85.4
34 Alex Delvecchio 84.9
35 Gilbert Perreault 84.6
36 Darryl Sittler 84.1
37 Clint Smith* 82.6
38 Mats Sundin 82.3
39 Doug Gilmour 82.3
40 Pierre Turgeon 82.3
41 Mike Modano 81.7
42 Henrik Sedin 81.7
43 Jeremy Roenick 81.5
44 Ted Kennedy 81.5
45 Sergei Fedorov 81
46 Bernie Nicholls 80.3
47 Cooney Weiland 79.4
48 Pavel Datsyuk 78.9
49 Pat LaFontaine 78.8
50 Hooley Smith 78.8
... ... ...
69 Dave Keon 73.2

 

[TheNuge]

I love the guys submitting a list of the great talents at center this generation...

Giroux, Benn, Getzlaf, Malkin, Stamkos...


Yet not a single person brings up Nicklas Backstrom....


Backstrom is a .98 PPG player over 650 games
Getzlaf is a .945 PPG over 775 games
Benn is a .88 PPG over 500 games
Malkin is a 1.18 PPG over 650 games
Stamkos is a .98 PPG over 550 games
Giroux is a .90 PPG over 550 games

So in fact by the numbers the only center more elite than Backatrom on the list provided is Malkin...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Okay.

Consider the topic of the thread, and that very few people are talking about *any* of the players you've listed. In fact, I just searched posts 51+ (for simplicity), and Giroux, Benn, and Getzlaf are mentioned a total of zero times other than your post.

Can you please talk about the topic, and not this diversion?