Crosby current all time center ranking?

[BenchBrawl]

Well... Maybe. But anywhere between 2nd and 8th is actually very good. It won't be Crosby's best year, but I don't think we can't expect 06-07 every year either.

Oh I agree Crosby's last two seasons are still very relevent.Just that without Johnston we might be looking at two extra Art Ross Trophies.

 

[Voight]

This eventually I've heard for years. Year after year crosby puts up an elite season and yet nothing changes Sakic was a great player but he wasent THAT great.

10th all time in the centers project says otherwise.....

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1531045

 

[Voight]

Oh I agree Crosby's last two seasons are still very relevent.Just that without Johnston we might be looking at two extra Art Ross Trophies.

Not true. He had the lead last season, but scored 0 points in his last game while Benn had 4. Can't blame anyone but himself.

 

[Son Goku]

Quotes from coaches and teammates. Composure in the face of adversity. For instance, how would Joe Sakic react if he were in the 2012 Flyers series?

I dunno, how would they? Completely different era with different teammates and different coaches. That's completely irrelevant.

 

[seventieslord]

C'mon Hardy, that's one of the few times that my snarky comments wasn't targeting you at all!

It's really nostalgia putting Sakic over crosby. Even removing lemieux crosby trumps Sakic in ppg finishes and elite scoring finishes.

This sounds familiar. It was just nostalgia putting Yzerman over Sakic starting around 2004, and it took half a decade for at least most of us to finally realize that Sakic had clearly surpassed Yzerman. The same thing is happening now. I think Crosby's arguably ahead but the arguments for Sakic are reasonable as well. In a few years it probably will be little more than nostalgia keeping Sakic ahead in some people's minds, but the switch where most/all people realize Crosby's ahead will be much faster and there will be a lot more consensus.

Not sure if this was directed at me - but i think i'm the one who started saying he'd be #3 in this thread, and don't remember if anyone else said that too, so I assume you're talking to me.

Just to be clear - i'm saying as of age 28. Put Crosby at age 28 against any other center in history at age 28 - and Crosby looks very, very good (outside of Gretzky/Lemieux).

Is that what you're disagreeing with? Or was someone actually suggesting Crosby should be #3 right now if he retired today? Because if it's the former - i don't even think it's controversial.

Who looks better than Crosby at age 28? Maybe there's 1-2 guys, but i would expect it's at the very least very close, and wouldn't be surprised if Crosby is actually ahead.

I thought this was directed at you as well.

I agreed with you that it's arguable he's had the best career by age 28. It's far from conclusive, though. By offensive regular season resume alone, it's as good as conclusive.

Yes, eventually it should. Crosby has only played half as long as the guys he's being compared to. He certainly hasn't been twice as good as them.

That's not really how it works for most of us. He would only need to be clearly better and for a large enough sample that it's "conclusive". If it's not at that point for you already, it will have to be soon.

By your logic, if Sakic plays 30% more than Crosby, Crosby would have to be 30% better. Or to put it more simply, it's a career points race when you really break that arguement down.

Not true. He had the lead last season, but scored 0 points in his last game while Benn had 4. Can't blame anyone but himself.

It's not just about losing the race on the last day. His offense tailed off all season and when you look at the last 80 games before Johnston, the 80 games with Johnston and the 40 games since Johnston, it looks pretty clear what the problem was.

It's also a pretty important case study in the importance of a coach in a player's offensive stats, not just Crosby but anyone.

1.30 in 80 pre-Johnston games
0.98 in 105 Johnston games
1.28 in 40 post-Johnston games

 

[Mrb1p]

At this point ? He bumps Messier to 7th. I don't know if he'll ever close in on Morenz, but I think 7th all-time is pretty good considering the injuries and were he's at right now.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Not true. He had the lead last season, but scored 0 points in his last game while Benn had 4. Can't blame anyone but himself.

Well Pittsburg was also missing 3 of their top 4 Dmen and Benn Dis it more games as Crosby missed games and played sick as well right?

 

[Son Goku]

If Crosby never got injured we'd be talking about him as the third best center of all time AINEC. He "could" have 5 Art Rosses and at least a couple more Harts and Ted Lindsay's. How many players compare to that? Not even Jagr could.

 

[Czech Your Math]

If Crosby never got injured we'd be talking about him as the third best center of all time AINEC. He "could" have 5 Art Rosses and at least a couple more Harts and Ted Lindsay's. How many players compare to that? Not even Jagr could.

Jagr won 5 Rosses, finished second to Lemieux (closer to Mario than anyone was to Jagr), and finished second to Thornton (who had two extra games available due to trade... after each player's teams had played a total of 82 games, Jagr led).
He also was just behind Mario before getting hurt in '97 and may have had a chance in '02 if not for injury. Then there was the missed lockout season of '05, when he probably had as good of a shot as anyone to win it.

I definitely wouldn't expect a healthy Jagr in his mid-late 20s to be struggling to outscore the likes of Tavares, Voracek... nevermind Pavelski... or a defenseman not named Orr... or a 36 y/o Thornton... or Brent Burns... or second year players like Gudreau & Kuznetsov. It just wouldn't happen.

It's amazing that Crosby's current season and last season are supposed to significantly help his legacy... but Jagr producing at ~80% of that clip in his mid-40s, while passing multiple players to claim 3rd in both career goals & points is deemed practically meaningless. Can you say double standard?

 

[K Fleur]

Welp we reached the point where this thread becomes a Crosby vs. Jagr discussion.(as they always seem to do)

Was a good read everybody!

 

[Joedaman55]

I'd rank him somewhere between Yzerman and Forsberg in the list now, not sure where.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yeah can we not turn this into a Jagr thread.This is really, really, really becoming annoying.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Pretty sure an all-time ranking goes a bit deeper than this.

I am going to guess you are not a fan of Crosby.

It is pretty superficial of you to point out that in Crosby's worst season in the NHL he finished 3 points behind a player who is now making a case for being the league's best. And Sedin's 2009/10 season is better than all but a couple of Sakic's and Yzerman's.

I don't have strong personal feelings towards any of the three players. Other than being annoyed that Yzerman recently piped up and suggested fighting needs to be removed from the game (after enjoying the benefits Probert, Kocur, and McCarty provided him of course). But that has nothing to do with how I'd rank his playing career.

Of course an all-time ranking goes deeper than the one-liner I threw out. But it also goes deeper than counting up points finishes and Hart voting, which seems to be the main theme in here. Any ranking is subjective, so if somebody thinks Crosby is ahead then fine. But regurgitating points finishes as the main element of the argument is quite weak IMO.

This sounds familiar. It was just nostalgia putting Yzerman over Sakic starting around 2004, and it took half a decade for at least most of us to finally realize that Sakic had clearly surpassed Yzerman. The same thing is happening now. I think Crosby's arguably ahead but the arguments for Sakic are reasonable as well. In a few years it probably will be little more than nostalgia keeping Sakic ahead in some people's minds, but the switch where most/all people realize Crosby's ahead will be much faster and there will be a lot more consensus.

Sakic is only five years younger than Yzerman, I'm not sure how much nostalgia could have played a role. I have Sakic ahead, but I think there's at least room for debate. I don't think he "clearly" passed Yzerman.

That's not really how it works for most of us. He would only need to be clearly better and for a large enough sample that it's "conclusive". If it's not at that point for you already, it will have to be soon.

By your logic, if Sakic plays 30% more than Crosby, Crosby would have to be 30% better. Or to put it more simply, it's a career points race when you really break that arguement down.

No, I don't mean it to be so cut and dry. But if Sakic plays literally twice as many games at an elite level, and his peak was only marginally worse than Crosby's (if at all - I'd actually take Sakic's 2000-01 over any of Crosby's seasons), it seems like longevity is given practically no weight at all in the comparison. Which isn't really consistent with the way players are typically ranked around here.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Welp we reached the point where this thread becomes a Crosby vs. Jagr discussion.(as they always seem to do)

Was a good read everybody!

If outrageous comparisons weren't made, then there would be no need to rebut them.

Crosby is really difficult to gauge.

Previously he had some partial seasons of brilliance and the argument was that once he was healthy he would leave everyone in his dust. So he did that in 2014, after playing 99 regular season games in 3 years, and then the last two years... well, they are very good seasons, but for peak Crosby they honestly can't be what was expected. I mean, finishing third behind Benn & Tavares (and only that high due to injuries to Kane & Seguin)... and now chasing Karlsson down the final stretch and fending off a couple second year players in Gudreau & Kuznetsov and a trio of Sharks (Brent Burns, Pavelski, and a 36 y/o Thornton) just for a probable top 5 (maybe top 3) finish? This is hardly the material of legends is it?

OTOH, he has stayed healthy, so the assumption that he will play many more years seems realistic. Unless he regains his peak form, I don't see him passing Mikita. It's difficult comparing him to the likes of Messier, Espo and Clarke. His best comparisons will probably be Sakic & Yzerman. With typical longevity I can see him passing Yzerman. To clearly pass Sakic, he will probably need at least another special season and/or to really pick it up in the playoffs for the remainder of his career.

 

[Rhiessan71]

If outrageous comparisons weren't made, then there would be no need to rebut them.

Crosby is really difficult to gauge.

Previously he had some partial seasons of brilliance and the argument was that once he was healthy he would leave everyone in his dust. So he did that in 2014, after playing 99 regular season games in 3 years, and then the last two years... well, they are very good seasons, but for peak Crosby they honestly can't be what was expected. I mean, finishing third behind Benn & Tavares (and only that high due to injuries to Kane & Seguin)... and now chasing Karlsson down the final stretch and fending off a couple second year players in Gudreau & Kuznetsov and a trio of Sharks (Brent Burns, Pavelski, and a 36 y/o Thornton) just for a probable top 5 (maybe top 3) finish? This is hardly the material of legends is it?

OTOH, he has stayed healthy, so the assumption that he will play many more years seems realistic. Unless he regains his peak form, I don't see him passing Mikita. It's difficult comparing him to the likes of Messier, Espo and Clarke. His best comparisons will probably be Sakic & Yzerman. With typical longevity I can see him passing Yzerman. To clearly pass Sakic, he will probably need at least another special season and/or to really pick it up in the playoffs for the remainder of his career.

This is about as reasonable a post one can have on the subject.

However...there has been a lot of posts in this thread claiming Sakic is clearly ahead of Yzerman and I would just like to point out that Yzerman vs Sakic polls are some of the closest we have had on the History board. The last one had a separation of 54.35% to 45.65, a mere 20 votes separated them out of 230 votes cast.
A lot closer than Bourque vs Lidstrom (64-36) or even Gretzky vs Orr (61-39).
Only Roy vs Hasek (pretty much 50-50) yields closer results.

So please, enough with the "clearly" stuff, there's nothing clear about it.
There is so little space separating Sakic and Yzerman, there is no way in hell that Crosby could pass just one of them, he will pass both or neither.

And regardless what anyone says, 11 seasons, many of them partials, is not even close to enough to overcome the FULL 20 and 22 stellar seasons played by Sakic and Yzerman.
THAT is a ridiculous notion.
In the words of PK Subban..."He's no Bobby Orr."

 

[K Fleur]

If outrageous comparisons weren't made, then there would be no need to rebut them.

Crosby is really difficult to gauge.

Previously he had some partial seasons of brilliance and the argument was that once he was healthy he would leave everyone in his dust. So he did that in 2014, after playing 99 regular season games in 3 years, and then the last two years... well, they are very good seasons, but for peak Crosby they honestly can't be what was expected. I mean, finishing third behind Benn & Tavares (and only that high due to injuries to Kane & Seguin)... and now chasing Karlsson down the final stretch and fending off a couple second year players in Gudreau & Kuznetsov and a trio of Sharks (Brent Burns, Pavelski, and a 36 y/o Thornton) just for a probable top 5 (maybe top 3) finish? This is hardly the material of legends is it?

OTOH, he has stayed healthy, so the assumption that he will play many more years seems realistic. Unless he regains his peak form, I don't see him passing Mikita. It's difficult comparing him to the likes of Messier, Espo and Clarke. His best comparisons will probably be Sakic & Yzerman. With typical longevity I can see him passing Yzerman. To clearly pass Sakic, he will probably need at least another special season and/or to really pick it up in the playoffs for the remainder of his career.

I'm aware of where the Jagr talk started in this thread. I wasn't casting stones your, or anyone's, way. It's just that conversation(a conversation that's been thoroughly beaten to death)seems to creep its way into any thread involving Crosby in the History forum.

I definitely agree that Crosby's place all time is tough to gauge at the moment(people putting him ahead of Messier already made me do a double take). For many reasons.

 

[edinson]

Previously he had some partial seasons of brilliance and the argument was that once he was healthy he would leave everyone in his dust. So he did that in 2014, after playing 99 regular season games in 3 years, and then the last two years... well, they are very good seasons, but for peak Crosby they honestly can't be what was expected. I mean, finishing third behind Benn & Tavares (and only that high due to injuries to Kane & Seguin)... and now chasing Karlsson down the final stretch and fending off a couple second year players in Gudreau & Kuznetsov and a trio of Sharks (Brent Burns, Pavelski, and a 36 y/o Thornton) just for a probable top 5 (maybe top 3) finish? This is hardly the material of legends is it?

This isn't peak Crosby, though. There's no shame in racking up top 5 finishes while playing below your peak level. Not many players could do that. Yzerman couldn't, unless you consider his peak to be only two seasons.

 

[seventieslord]

I mean, finishing third behind Benn & Tavares (and only that high due to injuries to Kane & Seguin)

That's kind of a low blow considering he led the NHL in points per game.

 

[Wrath]

This isn't peak Crosby, though. There's no shame in racking up top 5 finishes while playing below your peak level. Not many players could do that. Yzerman couldn't, unless you consider his peak to be only two seasons.

Yeah that's the thing people don't get, all these top 5 and even top 10 finishes will pad his "prime" to the point that it will surpass Sakic/Yzerman (with a reasonable projection of decline and lack of serious injury ofc).

So many times when you see, say, Sakic vs Yzerman people line up the top 10 points, goals, assists, PPG seasons for each of them (and usually remove Gretzky/Lemieux for fairness), and Sakic in particular gets a lot of mileage for a ton of top 10 finishes because he was pretty consistently one of the top 10 or so forwards in the league even when not in his peak.

Every time Crosby finishes in the top 10 for points, it will improve his argument for the HOH rankings by that much more over retired players.


And yeah, I still have Crosby behind Sakic/Yzerman now, but I fully expect he will pass both in a few seasons.

 

[Rhiessan71]

This isn't peak Crosby, though. There's no shame in racking up top 5 finishes while playing below your peak level. Not many players could do that. Yzerman couldn't, unless you consider his peak to be only two seasons.

Sounds good in theory.

That is until one starts naming the other top-5 finishers that each player was finishing with or below.
Not only did Yzerman and Sakic have Gretz, Lemieux and Jagr to deal with, they also had to deal the teammates of those players they were pumping up.
Yzerman and Sakic were also competing with each other at the same time for those same top-5 finishes.
On top of this, for chunks of their careers, you have Stevie and Joe playing on teams that could barely make the PO's or not at all in a 21 team league.

Out of 10 completed seasons, Crosby has missed significant chunks of time in 4 them and has just 2 Art Ross in the other 6, soon to be out of 7.

Crosby has been good, very good in fact, even great in limited windows but his lack of competition, especially the consistency of that competition makes him look better than he actually is.

Too much "what if" with Crosby and his play last season and this season have hurt more than helped those questions.

 

[Czech Your Math]

This isn't peak Crosby, though. There's no shame in racking up top 5 finishes while playing below your peak level. Not many players could do that. Yzerman couldn't, unless you consider his peak to be only two seasons.

That's kind of the point though.
His age 27 & 28 seasons should be near his peak, especially coming off a dominant Ross win at age 26 (and that itself was after a great deal of rest over the previous 2.5 years).

That's kind of a low blow considering he led the NHL in points per game.

When you play 77 games, having to use PPG to spin him as the best seems a bit weak IMO. The only time since 2010 that he has distance himself from the pack over a full season was in 2014, after a rare amount of rest over the previous 2.5 seasons. If he can stay healthy, his consistency may well give him a clear edge over Sakic, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

 

[edinson]

That's kind of the point though.
His age 27 & 28 seasons should be near his peak, especially coming off a dominant Ross win at age 26 (and that itself was after a great deal of rest over the previous 2.5 years).

So your point is that you think his peak is too short? I don't know, as it currently stands, he has 8 years (06-14), which I would call his peak. That's pretty solid. What hurts him, obviously, is that he was injured for a large chunk of that period.

 

[The Panther]

I just can't see any reasonable case for evaluating the Sid-ster as the 3rd-best/greatest center of all time.... I think that's kind of bonkers, actually.

As the past few pages of this thread prove, there's considerable disharmony in the notion that he's surpassed players like Mark Messier, Steve Yzerman, or Joe Sakic (I could see the case for that argument, but it's certainly not a clear majority opinion).

More to the point, though: what about Phil Esposito and Jean Béliveau? I just can't see any possible argument that he has bettered them. I mean, what has he done that they haven't done more times?

As I said earlier in the thread, because of the unusual nature of Crosby's career so far (missed games and injuries; very early peak), it's very difficult to evaluate him. He may yet win the Stanley Cup and the Conn Smythe this season or next, and we'll have to re-evaluate. He may play at a very high level, akin to Gordie Howe, until he's 41 years old, and we'll re-evaluate him. On the other hand, if he goes down to another serious injury and is out of hockey within three years with no further major accomplishments/awards (which is certainly possible), then I think you'll see the popular opinion of him decline and his ranking will slightly fall.

At present, the most generous argument, within reason, for Crosby, is that he is the 5th-best center in NHL history.

 

[MadArcand]

Way too much focus on offense (Crosby looks especially good if one looks at it on per game basis and ignores the woeful level of competition he faces), barely any on defense. Yzerman and Sakic were so much better defensively that Crosby would have to increase his offensive edge twofold to even think of catching up.

 

[daver]

However...there has been a lot of posts in this thread claiming Sakic is clearly ahead of Yzerman and I would just like to point out that Yzerman vs Sakic polls are some of the closest we have had on the History board.

Take your pick then.

You can continue to play the "Sakic had tougher competition card" which is reflected in the chart that shows Sakic and Crosby being equal and both ahead of Yzerman.

Or

Recognize Crosby, as the majority of posters seem to, as being clearly the better offensive player on a per game basis than Sakic and Yzerman which is reflected in a analysis of their best Art Ross finishes (with Mario and Wayne removed). The only caveat is that for some people he simply needs to play more seasons at just a decent level to be rated above them.