Crosby current all time center ranking?

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MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Where do you rank crosby as an all time center. Last time crosby was ranked 22nd.

How about now?

Quick like that... I'd put him right above Marcel Dionne and Peter Forsberg, who were both tied.

But that's something of an loaded question : 22nd was an aggregate (I had him right there), and each "component" of the aggregate, save for two or three voters, probably gave lots of thoughts to the question. And I just answered yours in, what, two minutes?
 
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bobholly39

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it's really hard for me to compare current career to finished career.

ie - it's easy for me to compare Crosby at age 28 to Messier at age 28. But Crosby at age 28 to Messier's full career? That's so much harder.


I will say that looking at the top 10 all-time center list as ranked by this forum, I can't imagine Crosby not at the very least finishing top 5 center of all-time, assuming he can maintain a respectable level of play in the back half of his career.

So i'd have him ahead of everyone but Lemieux, gretzky, Morenz and Beliveau. And I think top 3 after Gretzky and Lemieux is still within his grasp - though it will take some "big" moments to surpass Beliveau. Whether a legendary playoff run, or a few more hart/ross trophies.
 

Pierremartin9

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Right now, he has comparable point-per-game to Marcel Dionne and Peter Forsberg. Dionne never won a Stanley Cup.

Just throwing this in here, relating strictly to career points-per-game, Crosby is advantageously comparable to Joe Sakic and Phil Esposito...
 

MXD

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So i'd have him ahead of everyone but Lemieux, gretzky, Morenz and Beliveau. And I think top 3 after Gretzky and Lemieux is still within his grasp - though it will take some "big" moments to surpass Beliveau. Whether a legendary playoff run, or a few more hart/ross trophies.

To pass Beliveau, he'd also need slightly better high-end competition than what he has at the moment. Luckily, McDavid.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Right now, he has comparable point-per-game to Marcel Dionne and Peter Forsberg. Dionne never won a Stanley Cup.

Just throwing this in here, relating strictly to career points-per-game, Crosby is advantageously comparable to Joe Sakic and Phil Esposito...

Well, all of those players, except Forsberg, had very good longevity.

As for Dionne, Crosby wouldn't have won a Cup with those Wings and those Kings, so that point is mooter than moot.
 

Nathaniel

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Oct 18, 2013
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I personally believe he has surpassed forsberg and Sakic by this point. He's looking to lock up another top 5 scoring finish and maybe a hart nomination.

A Smythe will do wonders for his career and all time ranking
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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The top centers list is two years old, what's he really done since then that would cause him to move up significantly?
 

Nathaniel

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The top centers list is two years old, what's he really done since then that would cause him to move up significantly?

Win an art ross hart Lindsay 1st team all star in 2013-14.

Finished 3rd in points and 5th in hart voting in 14-15
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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The top centers list is two years old, what's he really done since then that would cause him to move up significantly?

Well, just adding this season and last season (I take for granted that 2013-14 was already considered) is already significant in his case, as his high-end finishes are already better than every NHL up to .... about Joe Sakic.

At this point, Crosby "gains" by simply playing games as a legit no1 center in the NHL, as his upper end achievements are about as good as many in the Top-10.

(As a sidenote, he's now tied with Dionne for Hart Top-5 finishes, and his finishes line in the Top-5 look better than Dionne too. He's also likely to rack up another Top-5 finish this season. And every non statsheet stat factor probably favors Crosby at this point.)

There is one thing, however : Competition. I see forwards as the weak link ATM (it's probably D-G-F, but real close between G and F), and centers as nothing special and comparatively weak (in other words, there seems to be more elite players on the wing than at center, at least compared to "historical" levels). I also really dislike how what's probably the best damn center in the league will once again get insignificant Hart consideration compared to his real output. But that's just me.
 
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daver

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There is one thing, however : Competition. I see forwards as the weak link ATM (it's probably D-G-F, but real close between G and F), and centers as nothing special and comparatively weak (in other words, there seems to be more elite players on the wing than at center, at least compared to "historical" levels). I also really dislike how what's probably the best damn center in the league will once again get insignificant Hart consideration compared to his real output. But that's just me.

This needs some more explanation.

Since Crosby has been in the league, other than OV, it seems the forwards who would be in a Top 3 discussion are centres: Thornton, Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos. Only in the past year would you legitimately consider wingers like Kane and Benn in that discussion.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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This needs some more explanation.

Since Crosby has been in the league, other than OV, it seems the forwards who would be in a Top 3 discussion are centres: Thornton, Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos. Only in the past year would you legitimately consider wingers like Kane and Benn in that discussion.

I'm definitely not giving explanations as to the meaning of "at the moment".
 

bobholly39

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I'm definitely not giving explanations as to the meaning of "at the moment".

Yeah I actually had trouble understanding your previous post too.

If you ask people who the best forwards in the NHL, they would list:

Benn and Kane and Ovy near the top maybe. But right there with them are:

Crosby
Malkin
Getzlaf
Tavares
Stamkos
Seguin
Giroux

I know a few of them are having bad years, or at least had bad starts to the year - but this is still a very Center-heavy league as far as offensive talent goes. That's before counting rookies like McDavid who is right up there too.



But - more than that - what do you even mean? Who cares what type of competition there is or isn't. If Crosby scored 120 points this year with all others center sucking, or if he scored 120 points with other centers i named having better years - to me it still holds the same value for Crosby. Judging a player's results by what others are doing is a very flawed system imo, if that's what you'r suggesting.
 

daver

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I'm definitely not giving explanations as to the meaning of "at the moment".

Didn't see the ATM.

I would rate his 3rd place Art Ross placing in 2008 higher than last year's based on how far ahead of the pack he was but I am not sure of the significance of whether it is wingers or centres who is among in the scoring race in relation to his ranking.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I personally believe he has surpassed forsberg and Sakic by this point. He's looking to lock up another top 5 scoring finish and maybe a hart nomination.

A Smythe will do wonders for his career and all time ranking

Crosby over Sakic is a very tough sell. They peaked at the same level, and Sakic played a lot longer and has an extra Cup run playing at Smythe-level.
 

daver

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Crosby over Sakic is a very tough sell. They peaked at the same level, and Sakic played a lot longer and has an extra Cup run playing at Smythe-level.

Crosby has a clearly longer peak/prime, how ever one chooses to define it. Sakic had as many seasons where he was in the pack as he had where he was at the ahead of the pack.

If Crosby is not ahead of the Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier tier at this point, another season or two of prime play should move him ahead.
 

seventieslord

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I think I had him right around Ullman and Gilmour in my round 1 list in the centers project (both who I had rated higher than most people) but by the time it was his turn in round 2, he looked really good compared to the other players that round.

I can't see him being "only" an Apps at this point - he's so far ahead of his contemporaries on a "per game" basis and over a longer period than Apps even played. At the same time, even though he's easily peaked higher than Yzerman I find it unfair on a playoffs and longevity basis to put Crosby ahead of him. So I could see him 14th right now.
 

daver

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I think I had him right around Ullman and Gilmour in my round 1 list in the centers project (both who I had rated higher than most people) but by the time it was his turn in round 2, he looked really good compared to the other players that round.

I can't see him being "only" an Apps at this point - he's so far ahead of his contemporaries on a "per game" basis and over a longer period than Apps even played. At the same time, even though he's easily peaked higher than Yzerman I find it unfair on a playoffs and longevity basis to put Crosby ahead of him. So I could see him 14th right now.

Besides total playoff points, wouldn't Crosby be ahead on peak playoff performance? Not sure that should be viewed as a differentiator.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Crosby has a clearly longer peak/prime, how ever one chooses to define it. Sakic had as many seasons where he was in the pack as he had where he was at the ahead of the pack.

If Crosby is not ahead of the Sakic/Yzerman/Trottier tier at this point, another season or two of prime play should move him ahead.

....because the center pack was stronger (at face value).

You're right on something though : Crosby adds just by playing at a normal or above-average no1 level center (I avoid speaking about "prime" as of now -- that would be overly restrictive, and because Crosby has always been better than the normal above-average 1st Center), and he already has the high-end achievements to eventually pass Sakic.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Besides total playoff points, wouldn't Crosby be ahead on peak playoff performance? Not sure that should be viewed as a differentiator.

On Gilmour? Nope.
(It indeed doesn't make a difference)

On Apps? Hard to tell without hard data on Apps years. My gut says Apps still slightly better, but I might be completely off.

(And that's the problem with giving two minutes to a question that would probably deserve more)
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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I think I had him right around Ullman and Gilmour in my round 1 list in the centers project (both who I had rated higher than most people) but by the time it was his turn in round 2, he looked really good compared to the other players that round.

I can't see him being "only" an Apps at this point - he's so far ahead of his contemporaries on a "per game" basis and over a longer period than Apps even played. At the same time, even though he's easily peaked higher than Yzerman I find it unfair on a playoffs and longevity basis to put Crosby ahead of him. So I could see him 14th right now.

Well, to be honest, Apps career spanned 12 seasons.... Crosby was drafted less than 11 years ago.

I honestly prefer to compare Crosby to Apps than to Boucher, Schmidt and Richard. With Crosby getting the "tiebreak" for being a slightly more complete player over Apps.
 
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