OT: Covid-19 (Part 25) Summertime

[LyricalLyricist]

It's not about being perfect. Slavery is one of the worst crimes you can commit on a human being, not only that but they were traitors to their country. We're not talking about somebody snorting blow off a shemale hooker's schlong, if that were the case then I wouldn't really care, whatever floats your boat mate.
We are talking statues celebrating traitors, white supremacists and pro-slavers. Looking at those statues and saying ''bah..nobody's perfect'' is one f***ing hell of a way of understating how terrible they were.
And for the record, those statues weren't there until after they lost the war and slavery was abolished. Those states put up these statues as fallen heroes, proud members of their militias they want to celebrate. Fine, they didn't know better before but we live in 2020 so that excuse doesn't hold anymore.

There's nothing wrong in finding some deep terrible issues that are no longer accepted and acting on it. It's part of evolution.
Up until 2017 there was a statue of the first grand wizard of the KKK for crying out loud. That's messed up man.
These statues do not deserve to be anywhere other than a museum, a place where people willingly go for to learn about history. They should not be in the streets.

There's a misconception I care about statues and confederate ones at that. Tear them down(of course, not with a mob because that's vandalism and illegal).

My question is what is the line in the sand we use for any statue representing someone? Slavery is bad? Agreed. Do we stop at murder? Misogyny? Draw the line, don't arbitrarily choose statues. Don't say "well the mob wants this one today, we'll see about others next time. Whatever mob wants to break, they can."

The Emancipation Memorial was paid for by former slaves and yet today people find it offensive because of slavery? Sure...but slaves actually put their money into it so it meant something to them. There are historians who say the statue is good based on the fact it was funded by former slaves in Lincoln's honor.

Of course, that is an exception and not the rule but its a slippery slope when people do first, ask questions later. In some obvious cases it works out, and others no. I'm very much against cancel culture but that doesn't mean certain things should not be canceled either. They are just statues and mean nothing to me, even the ones in Canada. My opinion though is if we allow mobs to pick and destroy which they find offensive then we are living in dangerous times. I do not support some of these violent mobs and likely never will.

That said, there is not much else to say on the subject is there? I'm all for removing statues based on logical reasoning. I'm not for letting the mob decide what to destroy overnight.

 

[Kriss E]

There's a misconception I care about statues and confederate ones at that. Tear them down(of course, not with a mob because that's vandalism and illegal).

My question is what is the line in the sand we use for any statue representing someone? Slavery is bad? Agreed. Do we stop at murder? Misogyny? Draw the line, don't arbitrarily choose statues. Don't say "well the mob wants this one today, we'll see about others next time. Whatever mob wants to break, they can."

The Emancipation Memorial was paid for by former slaves and yet today people find it offensive because of slavery? Sure...but slaves actually put their money into it so it meant something to them. There are historians who say the statue is good based on the fact it was funded by former slaves in Lincoln's honor.

Of course, that is an exception and not the rule but its a slippery slope when people do first, ask questions later. In some obvious cases it works out, and others no. I'm very much against cancel culture but that doesn't mean certain things should not be canceled either. They are just statues and mean nothing to me, even the ones in Canada. My opinion though is if we allow mobs to pick and destroy which they find offensive then we are living in dangerous times. I do not support some of these violent mobs and likely never will.

That said, there is not much else to say on the subject is there? I'm all for removing statues based on logical reasoning. I'm not for letting the mob decide what to destroy overnight.

Sure, except the ''mob'' has asked for these monuments to be removed for a long time, it's not overnight. This ''where do we draw the line?'' is a bit silly imo. There is no line to be drawn, it's a case by case situation and as time goes by you might have to adapt and remove some.
Just like Penn State removed the statue of Legendary coach Joe Paterno once it was made known he was aware of the sexual misconduct his assistant coach had been doing on children for decades, and did nothing about it. f*** that guy.

For these current ones, as I said, they should be in a museum imo. A bit of common sense is enough to understand why.
I'm with you on cancel culture but I disagree this is the same thing.

 

[Paddyjack]

You can't compare us to Texas or Florida, or anywhere in the states.

The cases in Qc were mostly health care related. People were not getting sick going to IGA or Canadian Tire. That makes it controllable.
They also didn't just say ''f*** it! Let's reopen everything!'', that's revisionist history. We have been slowly reopening since May 4th starting with construction and landscaping. Then daycares and other businesses outside of Mtl also got to reopen, and then in Mtl. Little by little, they permitted more businesses to operate. We are now a couple of days from July and they gave the green light to bars, so it was done over a 2 month period.

A rise in cases is expected as well but it should be way more controllable. How they've handled things in the States is nuts and really does not compare. They didn't even wait to see their cases dropped, they opted to reopen while they plateaued at the peak. As I said, can't compare.

Well let's see who is right in a few weeks Kriss. I for one also think you guys opened way too fast and I'm pretty sure your numbers will be high again soon. I heard that narrative about health sectors, don't tell me that "most" of your 50K+ were in there, deaths yes, but cases nope. So COVID is going around in the population of Quebec as we speak, especially Montreal, and I'm pretty sure it will go up again in July.

Why don't you guys do like we do in BC, geez. Gradual reopening, case tracing, etc. Is it that hard?

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Guys, for everyone saying "yes we should take down those statues, but we should do so legally!"... you realize the Civil War ended 150 years ago right? That people have been trying to take down the statues legally the whole time? We have a president who literally ****ing retweeted "white power" today, and you want oppressed minority groups to 'work within the system'? So naïve

Personally I consider such a stance yet another delaying tactic by comfortable or unaffected people that have no stake in racial equality in the US. That fake neutrality which really just perpetuates the unjust status quo. People are ****ing pissed off, they're fed up, it's been literal centuries of bull**** now and so I'm not gonna be the one to tell them how they should and should not protest.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Follow-up question: for those of you that mob mentality offends so greatly, do you feel the same way about the American revolution? The French revolution?

I find it funny how we put those events up on a pedestal in the political history hall of fame, but no one seems to mind rioting, vandalism and mob mentality in those cases. Wonder what the big difference is...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Guys, for everyone saying "yes we should take down those statues, but we should do so legally!"... you realize the Civil War ended 150 years ago right? That people have been trying to take down the statues legally the whole time? We have a president who literally ****ing retweeted "white power" today, and you want oppressed minority groups to 'work within the system'? So naïve

Personally I consider such a stance yet another delaying tactic by comfortable or unaffected people that have no stake in racial equality in the US. That fake neutrality which really just perpetuates the unjust status quo. People are ****ing pissed off, they're fed up, it's been literal centuries of bull**** now and so I'm not gonna be the one to tell them how they should and should not protest.

As I pointed out the statue of Abraham Lincoln was paid for by freed slaves in honor of him and people are saying it should be torn down ASAP.

Do not find this weird? Ex Slaves paid for it, with their own money...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Follow-up question: for those of you that mob mentality offends so greatly, do you feel the same way about the American revolution? The French revolution?

I find it funny how we put those events up on a pedestal in the political history hall of fame, but no one seems to mind rioting, vandalism and mob mentality in those cases. Wonder what the big difference is...

I’m not American, I don’t care about the revolution.

Canada never did a violent civil war to that level(we’ve had wars and battles obviously). The loyalists of England came here after the civil war and we were a British colony for a long time until Trudeau Sr asked for full independence. We still have the queen on our money.

So Canada may not be perfect example.

Also the American revolution happened 250 years ago. There’s a lot of standards I would not adopt from that time.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

I’m not American, I don’t care about the revolution.

Canada never did a violent civil war to that level(we’ve had wars and battles obviously). The loyalists of England came here after the civil war and we were a British colony for a long time until Trudeau Sr asked for full independence. We still have the queen on our money.

So Canada may not be perfect example.

OK, fair enough.

But do you not see the double standard? We write heroic novels and plays about the French Revolution (Les Mis). Hollywood does the same with the American Revolution. But now people are hOrRiFiEd when it's people of color standing up for themselves.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

As I pointed out the statue of Abraham Lincoln was paid for by freed slaves in honor of him and people are saying it should be torn down ASAP.

Do not find this weird? Ex Slaves paid for it, with their own money...

Interesting, I'm not familiar with this story. Do you have a link?

I wonder how much support this idea has, or whether it's fringe.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

OK, fair enough.

But do you not see the double standard? We write heroic novels and plays about the French Revolution (Les Mis). Hollywood does the same with the American Revolution. But now people are hOrRiFiEd when it's people of color standing up for themselves.

we also make movies about nazis doesn’t mean we like them.

there’s movies about war, are they pushing another war? Nah. It’s just entertainment.

Of course you aren’t wrong in questioning what is glorified from time to time.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

we also make movies about nazis doesn’t mean we like them

this is a poor argument. in my examples, they are the heroes. no one (that I know of) is making movies where the Nazis are heroes

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Interesting, I'm not familiar with this story. Do you have a link?

I wonder how much support this idea has, or whether it's fringe.

Just google “emancipation memorial”

you will see it on Wikipedia for one. You will see it on the history website of the memorial. There are black history groups who refer to this as factual information.

On phone so can’t find it now but it’s in the news lately so most articles should bring up the history of it.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

this is a poor argument. in my examples, they are the heroes. no one (that I know of) is making movies where the Nazis are heroes

Sure but again we talk about war heroes, are we suggesting we want WW3?

that’s a stretch.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

Just google “emancipation memorial”

OK cool I looked it up. you conveniently omitted that in this particular statue, Lincoln is depicted as patting a kneeling slave on the head in a very patronizing manner. that's why people don't like it, man. not for Lincoln himself. geez

Sure but again we talk about war heroes, are we suggesting we want WW3?

that’s a stretch.

WW3? that's another weird stretch. i'm just saying i'm ok with people tearing down racist monuments.

why do people keep acting like protestors are some kind of all-powerful force. they're not the US government goon squad here, they are literally the oppressed minority

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I should say designs from previous eras can always be improved upon. I would not tear down a statue paid for by slaves by I might consider creating a new one that is more in line with the current climate to replace it. I just think a mob destroying this one is not a good move.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

OK cool I looked it up. you conveniently omitted that in this particular statue, Lincoln is depicted as patting a kneeling slave on the head in a very patronizing manner. that's why people don't like it, man. not for Lincoln himself. geez

20 year old Glenn Foster wanted to tear it down. A 20 year old...in Harvard. The struggle is real.

That said:

"We're going to tear that motherf----- down!" Foster shouted, pointing to the statue.

His exuberance drew mixed reactions from the crowd. While many cheered during Foster's speech, two older men stood up and tried to defend the statue. One, Cedric Turner, claimed to be a descendant of the black man, Archer Alexander, depicted in the memorial. The other, Don Folden, a Washington, D.C., tour guide, attempted to give several speeches defending the statue as an important part of black history.

"Let me show you how full of shit all y'all out here are," Folden said. "A lot of people out here want to tear this statue down, but they don't even know the history."
As Folden spoke, Foster asked him to be quiet, saying that older people should have no say in black activism.

"Last time I checked, this was my event," Foster said.

What a dickhead. Thank god he comes to his senses...for a minute:

After much more shouting, Foster told the crowd that he would not be attempting to tear the statue down immediately. Instead, he told people to petition lawmakers for change, including tearing the statue down.
"We are not going to stop it until every single person has the chance to live free from the oppression of our government, preconceived notions of white supremacy, and most importantly, people who are allowing the system to oppress us," Foster said.

Foster then asked the crowd to put their hands in the air if they truly believed that black lives matter. Several journalists recording the event did not, provoking the ire of people in the crowd, who called them Nazis and sprayed them with squirt guns.

Folden stepped in to escort the journalists away, and the crowd began shoving them. Police approached, and the event effectively ended.

This was not how Foster planned the rally. In a Zoom call a day prior to the rally, Foster instructed his supporters to make their attempt at statue-toppling seem “spontaneous” while still being “quick and efficient.” In the hours beforehand, members of The Freedom Neighborhood group chat obsessed over just how to do that. Volunteers floated the idea of bringing bolt cutters, a ladder, and even a ramp to breach the fence.

Ultimately, the group settled on Foster’s original plan: Two people scale the fence, loop the ropes around Lincoln’s head, and then toss them back to the people on the other side. But even with more people pulling that still left the problem of police interference.

But Freedom Neighborhood organizers had a solution for that: human shields.

“There’s no delicate way to say this,” an organizer wrote. “But we need white people to be willing to put their bodies between the police and black bodies, if necessary.”

The stunt was a heel turn for Foster. A one-time YouTube star, his lo-fi video “How I Got Into Harvard,” has received more than 50,000 views on the website. In the video, he cracked jokes about his accomplishments — namely, an internship at CNN, as well as the opportunity to meet former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, former President Barack Obama, and Sen. Bernie Sanders.
Foster also gave out advice on how to game the Ivy League admission process, noting that, because his ACT test scores were not perfect, he believes that his race was definitely a “dip in the bucket” that helped him get into Harvard.

Jeez. This guy has it bad.


--------------------------

Regarding the oppressive nature:

ABC7's Sam Ford spoke with two women who feel passionately about the monument on Sunday at Lincoln Park.

"I'm here to speak on behalf of the legacy of Charlotte Scott," said Marcia Cole, a member of the Female RE-Enactors of Distinction (FREED) who portrays Scott. FREED is an auxiliary organization of the African American Civil War Museum.

"I understand there's a big campaign trying to raise money to either take it down or mend it, and I say 'no' on behalf of Ms. Charlotte," she said. "People tend to think of that figure as being servile but on second look you will see something different, perhaps. That man is not kneeling on two knees with his head bowed. He is in the act of getting up. And his head is up, not bowed, because he's looking forward to a future of freedom."

Obviously this statue is now controversial which is fine. Some support it, some don't but the sweeping mob mentality is ridiculous. 20 year old harvard students telling older black men to mind their own business is comical. As he finally admitted once his plan failed, make the petitions, ask for change. Sure, it hasn't always been done and even if it isn't, this isn't necessarily the first on the list. There are far worse statues out there funded by the wrong people with the wrong intentions.

 

[Kriss E]

Well let's see who is right in a few weeks Kriss. I for one also think you guys opened way too fast and I'm pretty sure your numbers will be high again soon. I heard that narrative about health sectors, don't tell me that "most" of your 50K+ were in there, deaths yes, but cases nope. So COVID is going around in the population of Quebec as we speak, especially Montreal, and I'm pretty sure it will go up again in July.

Why don't you guys do like we do in BC, geez. Gradual reopening, case tracing, etc. Is it that hard?

Hmm how is BC doing it differently?
QC has gradually reopened for 2 months now and cases continued to drop to where we were under 50 cases daily.
BC is open as much as QC and had 218 cases yesterday no?

We expect a raise in cases as places open up, such is normal, and if rollbacks must happen they will.
The goal is to learn with the virus among us, not go into hiding until theres 0 case.

 

[Kriss E]

20 year old Glenn Foster wanted to tear it down. A 20 year old...in Harvard. The struggle is real.

That said:



What a dickhead. Thank god he comes to his senses...for a minute:







Jeez. This guy has it bad.


--------------------------

Regarding the oppressive nature:



Obviously this statue is now controversial which is fine. Some support it, some don't but the sweeping mob mentality is ridiculous. 20 year old harvard students telling older black men to mind their own business is comical. As he finally admitted once his plan failed, make the petitions, ask for change. Sure, it hasn't always been done and even if it isn't, this isn't necessarily the first on the list. There are far worse statues out there funded by the wrong people with the wrong intentions.

Not sure what this is supposed to prove. This guy is a 20yo young innocent and clueless kid.

But again, these statues belong in a museum of history. It has nothing to do with taking orders from the mob, just an ounce of common sense.

 

[Lshap]

OK cool I looked it up. you conveniently omitted that in this particular statue, Lincoln is depicted as patting a kneeling slave on the head in a very patronizing manner. that's why people don't like it, man. not for Lincoln himself. geez

WW3? that's another weird stretch. i'm just saying i'm ok with people tearing down racist monuments.

why do people keep acting like protestors are some kind of all-powerful force. they're not the US government goon squad here, they are literally the oppressed minority

How would you feel about a mob tearing down the MLK monument because of his misogynist past?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

then there should be statues of no one honestly

The cult of great men blinds us to the fact that what we have is due to the lives, efforts and sacrifices of billions of people that came before us, not just this man or this woman.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Guys, for everyone saying "yes we should take down those statues, but we should do so legally!"... you realize the Civil War ended 150 years ago right? That people have been trying to take down the statues legally the whole time? We have a president who literally ****ing retweeted "white power" today, and you want oppressed minority groups to 'work within the system'? So naïve

Personally I consider such a stance yet another delaying tactic by comfortable or unaffected people that have no stake in racial equality in the US. That fake neutrality which really just perpetuates the unjust status quo. People are ****ing pissed off, they're fed up, it's been literal centuries of bull**** now and so I'm not gonna be the one to tell them how they should and should not protest.

Trump really said that?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

How would you feel about a mob tearing down the MLK monument because of his misogynist past?

Like LL said, there shouldn't be any statues of anyone to begin with.

 

[Lshap]

Not sure what this is supposed to prove. This guy is a 20yo young innocent and clueless kid.

But again, these statues belong in a museum of history. It has nothing to do with taking orders from the mob, just an ounce of common sense.

It's an example of taking dangerous high-stakes actions before critical thought.

 

[PhysicX]

Like LL said, there shouldn't be any statues of anyone to begin with.

And I agree with this. You can dig up basically anything negative from someone's past and that person's narrative would be forever changed.

Anyway, I'm the wrong person to state an opinion on this matter, as I could not care less about statues, historical and patriotic monuments and symbols, etc.

 

[Lshap]

Like LL said, there shouldn't be any statues of anyone to begin with.

I have no problem with your point. Let them have that debate and arrive at a consensus. What we're seeing is a mob's sense of entitlement that they can decide for everyone what's allowed to exist.