OT: Covid-19 (Part 21) Come Together

[waffledave]

My wife works at Bureau En Gros and the last week before they opened, they were setting up all of the arrows on the floor, plexiglass for cashiers, and all of the things they needed to do to prepare for the opening. So like you say, businesses and people are not as careless.

There are those who don't, and that is everywhere. But overall, my personal experiences have been reassuring. There are two parks next to my house and even if you see a lot of people, a closer look and you see good distance between them. If I'm driving or taking a stroll in the area, I see more people wear masks than before. And any time I was taking a walk, people would move and not be careless about it.

That is my personal experience. I have yet to personally witness and experience anyone being careless about it.

I am sure the big corporations will have guidelines in place and many of them never closed down in the first place, so they have had time to adjust as needed.

But this is really just one aspect. Today my neighbors had some major renos done to their house. The crews have been there since Monday and nobody is wearing masks, nobody is distancing. It's not really possible given the heat, working on the exterior of the house, and you need to be close to people to get work done, and all that... But if one of those workers has it, likely they all have it now and the entire family too.

 

[Braun]

It's not just the management. The government oversight seems invisible, or worse, collaborative.

Shouldn’t need oversight to solve many of the problems in the CHSLD. I don’t need to government to tell me that we need ac units or how to organize the CHSLD logistically.

 

[waffledave]

Well we have the South Koreans

South Korea experts say ‘reinfected’ coronavirus cases appear to be false positives

And in their research they also did not find a single case which where the virus was passed to another person after someone recovered.

We also have a peer reviewed study done by Beth Israel on Monekys. Monkeys do not equal humans but its some very encouraging news

SARS-CoV-2 infection protects against rechallenge in rhesus macaques

They do warn that Monkeys do not equal humans and more test need to be done.

Well, these are encouraging but this is still pretty preliminary data. We need more. This is not enough for the WHO or the CDC to make a determination yet for a reason.

But so far 6 months into the pandemic we have yet to have one proven case of someone being reinfected. I guess the only way we can prove that immunity can last for years is to wait for years to pass. So right now we can say we have immunity for at almost 6 months, and as time goes by we can add to that counter.

Not really how this sort of thing works. We can not yet say there is any type of immunity for "at least 6 months" based on the absence of reinfection. We can barely track people who are infected in the first place.

 

[Kriss E]

Do you expect the numbers to decline a lot the way this reopening is being done, the way people behave and listen to the "rules"?
Maybe they will decline, i really hope so....My city had a rise of about 2 to 4 cases a day pretty much since the beginning. We open before Montreal, 51 new cases in the last 4 days.

Like most places that had a 2nd wave, they've managed to contain much quicker. I'd expect nothing less from us.
Are we going to see some increases..ya it's possible. This virus isn't going to disappear. We're not going to keep declining until there's 0 case. I expect the numbers to fluctuate through phases.

Where we will be in 3 months...who knows. 3 months ago we weren't even in confinement yet. I expect some numbers to go up as we deconfine, which is normal, but I don't think it will peak as it did before because people/businesses in general are way more cautious and prudent. So who knows but I don't think we're just going to keep having 500-600 daily over the next 3 months.

 

[waffledave]

I think it is pretty clear that there is, at the very least, short term immunity. Because this is such a new virus (first cases were five months ago), we do not know how long immunity lasts. It could be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year or a lifetime. It will be important for scientists to get a good understanding of the immunity for a potential vaccine.

I believe there is immunity too but there is nothing telling us this yet. We are still studying the situation, it'll be a while until we know for sure.

 

[groovejuice]

Shouldn’t need oversight to solve many of the problems in the CHSLD. I don’t need to government to tell me that we need ac units or how to organize the CHSLD logistically.

No, we need the government to ensure the environment is a healthful one and the residents are well looked after.

What you know or want solves nothing. The government is mandated to inspect, correct and heavily fine those who are not fulfilling their obligations.

 

[Braun]

No, we need the government to ensure the environment is a healthful one and the residents are well looked after.

What you know or want solves nothing. The government is mandated to inspect, correct and heavily fine those who are not fulfilling their obligations.

Yeah I agree but it goes way deeper than that. The people running most of these things have no clue wtf they are doing. My friends wife is a nurse and worked in one of them and when she got assigned they didn’t even have a patients list with who was taking what medication.

 

[OnTheRun]

Shouldn’t need oversight to solve many of the problems in the CHSLD. I don’t need to government to tell me that we need ac units or how to organize the CHSLD logistically.

You would think that, but in the private sector what matter is the bottom line, if they can get away with negligence by not spending money on a AC unit or by operating on a skeleton crew, that's what some are gonna do.

That's why you need the watchdogs.

 

[Braun]

You would think that, but in the private sector what matter is the bottom line, if they can get away with negligence by not spending money on a AC unit or by operating on a skeleton crew, that's what some are gonna do.

That's why you need the watchdogs.

Yes, there obviously needs to be oversight. Just saying that there is severe incompetence that shouldn’t of been there, ever.

 

[OnTheRun]

Yes, there obviously needs to be oversight. Just saying that there is severe incompetence that shouldn’t of been there, ever.

Of course. But isn't lack of oversight a contributing factor in situation when someone completely incompetent end up in charge of a CHSLD?

 

[Braun]

Of course. But isn't lack of oversight a contributing factor in situation when someone completely incompetent end up in charge of a CHSLD?

Yes, of course. All I meant was for a lot of the stuff going on, basic logic and management skills should’ve been better.

 

[waffledave]

Like most places that had a 2nd wave, they've managed to contain much quicker. I'd expect nothing less from us.
Are we going to see some increases..ya it's possible. This virus isn't going to disappear. We're not going to keep declining until there's 0 case. I expect the numbers to fluctuate through phases.

There are plenty of countries that have managed to reduce new cases to almost zero. It is very much possible, we just aren't capable to do that here for a number of reasons.

 

[groovejuice]

Yeah I agree but it goes way deeper than that. The people running most of these things have no clue wtf they are doing. My friends wife is a nurse and worked in one of them and when she got assigned they didn’t even have a patients list with who was taking what medication.

It's still a government responsibility. If they're doing a shitty job overseeing these facilities, then you complain loudly to them and the media.

No one else can force these enterprises to clean up their acts. Now if one sees violence or substantial neglect, I imagine the police might become involved.

My dad is in a seniors home in one if the dementia units. Me and some family members from other residents formed a board to communicate directly with management, who have been very cooperative in instituting our ideas and suggestions.

Still, for serious issues, the government is still the only body that can force changes and deal with malfeasance in court or by revoking licences if necessary.

 

[ProMath]

There are plenty of countries that have managed to reduce new cases to almost zero. It is very much possible, we just aren't capable to do that here for a number of reasons.

Maybe I missed it...but when I look at other countries...I dont see it. You have some exemple ?

Every major country except China, still have new cases several month after the first outbreak.

And a lots of country, are probably hiding number or not testing enough.

The « 0 new cases » dream...was always a dream.

There is alway hole in the system. Just with the basic worker...you will get new cases. Most expert agree that this virus will be there for some years.

Unless you completely shut down your country, which is impossible in an open economy like us/any rich country...you will see some new cases

 

[ProMath]

its a joke. Wayyyy tooo much. They have no buget no responsability etc....

Problem is 50.70% of PAB are lazy as f***.... absolute farce to pay them that much...next a Nurse making 75$ an hour after a DEC....

Did you volunteer to work there ?

It is not a sexy job. It’s god damn hard work, in a bad environment.

You think 26$/h is too much too take care of 10-15 person a day with mental health issue, bad shape... ?

If it was too much, there would not be missing 10k employee right now.

 

[OnTheRun]

Maybe I missed it...but when I look at other countries...I dont see it. You have some exemple ?

Every major country except China, still have new cases several month after the first outbreak.

And a lots of country, are probably hiding number or not testing enough.

The « 0 new cases » dream...was always a dream.

There is alway hole in the system. Just with the basic worker...you will get new cases. Most expert agree that this virus will be there for some years.

Unless you completely shut down your country, which is impossible in an open economy like us/any rich country...you will see some new cases

HK, NZ and Taiwan are the "zero'ish" group.
Then you have SK, Australia and Japan in the "very few" cases per day (<40).

We can definitely do better than the 500'ish per day we have over here.

 

[HelloBellyvo]

Did you break into the car of one of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills?

meow

 

[ProMath]

HK, NZ and Taiwan are the "zero'ish" group.
Then you have SK, Australia and Japan in the "very few" cases per day (<40).

We can definitely do better than the 500'ish per day we have over here.

All those countries (Zero ish group) ain’t major country. Only Taiwan can compare to us in term of population.

Yes we can do better...that obvious, but it is not all black like some make it to be here since the beginning.

And it is way too soon to compare. Most here say we need to be prudent with this virus because we dont know enough about it....well take the same approach with the comparison game.

Mexico, Brazil, Russia probably Low balling there number by a factor of ten....so before saying we are doing thing wrong...maybe be prudent ?

There could be plenty factor that explain why a virus is worse in certain country.

They only thing we are sure....we dropped the ball from day one in CHSLD because it was already a weak spot.

 

[MilhouseIsScared]

It’s like 48 hours before your first symptoms you are most contagious lol , so you could have it and went to 100 places in 2 days and not knowing . That’s why you still need to restrict going out etc , wear a friggin mask !

 

[OnTheRun]

All those countries (Zero ish group) ain’t major country. Only Taiwan can compare to us in term of population.

Yes we can do better...that obvious, but it is not all black like some make it to be here since the beginning.

And it is way too soon to compare. Most here say we need to be prudent with this virus because we dont know enough about it....well take the same approach with the comparison game.

Mexico, Brazil, Russia probably Low balling there number by a factor of ten....so before saying we are doing thing wrong...maybe be prudent ?

There could be plenty factor that explain why a virus is worse in certain country.

They only thing we are sure....we dropped the ball from day one in CHSLD because it was already a weak spot.

the "here" in my post is strictly about the province (QC in this case), since the federal have very little says on what is going on in each province. So yeah, if NZ or whoever can do it, then we can do it too.

I don't think anyone used Mexico, Brazil or Russia as model to follow, ever. And really I don't think it's about "doing thing wrong" but it's all about doing thing better.

 

[ProMath]

the "here" in my post is strictly about the province (QC in this case), since the federal have very little says on what is going on in each province. So yeah, if NZ or whoever can do it, then we can do it too.

I don't think anyone used Mexico, Brazil or Russia as model to follow, ever. And really I don't think it's about "doing thing wrong" but it's all about doing thing better.

Well, I always taught we compare country vs country.

Comparing Province vs country is foolish.

It’s would be like comparing the worse city in X country vs Province of Quebec and conclude we are doing a good job in Quebec vs that city. That is a false approach.

I used the other extreme to show that the comparison game is wrong right now.

The only one we can really compare in my mind is ontario. And yes we did worse than them. But why, I’m not sure.

Some here notice when they see construction worker without protection...Most here would say it was a good thing to close that domain...but for exemple, Ontario never closed it...in many ways, they did less than us... so there must be something else.

Again, I would bet the vast majority of cases are linked to CHSLD. That is where our main problem were, is and will be. The spring break probably played a huge factor. You can’t deny those thing when you compare.

 

[groovejuice]

Of course. But isn't lack of oversight a contributing factor in situation when someone completely incompetent end up in charge of a CHSLD?

It is. And if the government isn't fulfilling their ogligations of oversight then there needs to be a vocal public outcry with the media participating.

 

[OnTheRun]

Well, I always taught we compare country vs country.

Comparing Province vs country is foolish.

It’s would be like comparing the worse city in X country vs Province of Quebec and conclude we are doing a good job in Quebec vs that city. That is a false approach.

I used the other extreme to show that the comparison game is wrong right now.

The only one we can really compare in my mind is ontario. And yes we did worse than them. But why, I’m not sure.

Some here notice when they see construction worker without protection...Most here would say it was a good thing to close that domain...but for exemple, Ontario never closed it...in many ways, they did less than us... so there must be something else.

Again, I would bet the vast majority of cases are linked to CHSLD. That is where our main problem were, is and will be. The spring break probably played a huge factor. You can’t deny those thing when you compare.

No, it's not foolish at all.
The federal is not in charge of managing the pandemic in Canada, the responsibility fall on each province and each province is independent of the others. It's a federation of provinces and that's how it work.

 

[ProMath]

No, it's not foolish at all.
The federal is not in charge of managing the pandemic in Canada, the responsibility fall on each province and each province is independent of the others. It's a federation of provinces and that's how it work.

So the federal waiting to close the border has no influence?

Please stop being so drastic.

 

[OnTheRun]

So the federal waiting to close the border has no influence?

Please stop being so drastic.

There's nothing drastic in what I said. Primers are not relying on Trudeau to manage the epidemy. Just like any kind of measure taken in BC have very little to no impact on what is going on in Manitoba.

This is the governance structure we have in Canada, so yeah, comparing a province to NZ is perfectly acceptable in this situation.