COVID-19/Coronavirus Talk - Part II

[Celtic Note]

Agree or disagree with Tim Pool, but he discusses the topic openly. Like I said, it's all getting tribal and very close minded.

This was not a good show. There was so little covered and the amount of reiteration with out any substantive detail was poor. The Wikipedia sourcing/reference made me laugh.

 

[Celtic Note]

Yes...queue up the angry internet mob to attack, mock, and destroy people who don't follow the othodoxy of the one chosen solution to this problem. In my view there should be multiple solutions. From prophylaxis treatments to therapeutics. Sadly our government and Big Tech companies have selected just one approach to this and anything that deviates from this is either openly mocked or censored. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime.

Joe Rogan says he has Covid, took widely discredited drug ivermectin

I'm in the category of vaccine hesitancy. I'm not anti-vax. In fact, I'm up to date on my vaccinations for a host of diseases and I usually get a yearly flu vaccine. But there is zero long term safety data on mRNA based vaccines. Yes, ZERO long term safety data. I'm waiting for a more conventional COVID vaccine to roll out. One based on technologies with decades of use and data. Novovax is one that I'm keeping my eye on.

The problem today is everything is political and tribal. Moreover, we have traded person liberty for a perception of safety. We've closed ourselves down to looking outside the box and questioning what we are told. We approach this across all age and health groups in a "one solution fits all" approach when we should be multifaceted in how we tackle this. It's comply and obey with what you are told by the government, else you are public enemy #1.

Just my thoughts 18+ months into this pandemic. I believe I caught COVID early on (Feb/Mar 2020) during a business trip to Seattle (a hot zone at the time). I've never had a flu like I experience at that time. I recovered in a few days, but it was very strange.

I'm willing to keep questioning things and not just going along for convenience. If that puts me in your cross hairs for derision, so be it.

- There are multiple facets to COVID treatment and prevention. So yeah, there are multiple solutions.
- There are vaccines other than mRNA exist
- mRNA has been studied for decades look no further than the CDC, UofM, UofA, etc. sites.
- There are no known long-term effects of mRNA that I have seen documented. There are however long-term (permanent lung scarring for example) effects and mortal short-term effects of COVID.
-Vaccines have proven to reduce mortality rates and hospitalizations. The collection of vaccines available have a lower hospitalization rate than COVID.

- Being willing to question things is wise. Questioning them haphazardly is not advisable.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

- There are multiple facets to COVID treatment and prevention. So yeah, there are multiple solutions.
- There are vaccines other than mRNA exist
- mRNA has been studied for decades look no further than the CDC, UofM, UofA, etc. sites.
- There are no known long-term effects of mRNA that I have seen documented. There are however long-term (permanent lung scarring for example) effects and mortal short-term effects of COVID.
-Vaccines have proven to reduce mortality rates and hospitalizations. The collection of vaccines available have a lower hospitalization rate than COVID.

- Being willing to question things is wise. Questioning them haphazardly is not advisable.

Name one mRNA based FDA approved drug before the two we have now.

Both vaccines were developed in about 6-9 months and approved in about as much time.

Show me the long term data for both.


I can also show you a list of FDA approved drugs that were pulled from the market once people started using them and effects were recorded over a long period.


I have a PhD in engineering. I work in the aerospace industry. Bad stuff happens when we cut corners. I don't evaluate these things haphazardly. Your choice of words here is a little inflammatory.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

This was not a good show. There was so little covered and the amount of reiteration with out any substantive detail was poor. The Wikipedia sourcing/reference made me laugh.

Disagree. He tore apart the media story covering this. Most people are led to believe Joe Rogan is swallowing horse dewormer. It's silly.

The Japanese scientist who discovered Ivermectin won a Nobel Prize for his discovery. It's a very safe drug that may help with COVID, but our media like to bash it. So be it.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

What does that have to do with what I said?

"We missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud twice and so now we are left with it perpetually being in our lives, like the flu."

Please cite the two opportunities we missed to wipe out COVID. I assume when you say that it's "perpetually being in our lives" you are thinking we could wipe it out. Please walk me though the logic here. What did we not do nationally and globally to eliminate it?

In that story I bring to the table the current conditions in Israel. Israel is a leading country in vaccination rate. Yet, their cases of COVID are spiking again, even among the vaccinated. I believe they have already started with booster shots. So if Israel is doing all this, where did they fail to "nip this in the bud"?

 

[Mike Liut]

"We missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud twice and so now we are left with it perpetually being in our lives, like the flu."

Please cite the two opportunities we missed to wipe out COVID. I assume when you say that it's "perpetually being in our lives" you are thinking we could wipe it out. Please walk me though the logic here. What did we not do nationally and globally to eliminate it?

In that story I bring to the table the current conditions in Israel. Israel is a leading country in vaccination rate. Yet, their cases of COVID are spiking again, even among the vaccinated. I believe they have already started with booster shots. So if Israel is doing all this, where did they fail to "nip this in the bud"?

Most people can’t comprehend this. They give you a blank stare.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Most people can’t comprehend this. They give you a blank stare.

I'm all about the science. But science in the public sphere has almost become a religion where questioning the data and the assumptions is heresy. I still don't know what a "haphazard" question is in this regard. That's a new one on me.

I think vaccines have been fantastic for mankind in general. But not all vaccines, just like not all drugs, turn out to be what people promise them to be. Do I know anything about the long term safety and efficacy of our current COVID vaccines? Nope. But neither does anyone else.

 

[Mike Liut]

I'm all about the science. But science in the public sphere has almost become a religion where questioning the data and the assumptions is heresy. I still don't know what a "haphazard" question is in this regard. That's a new one on me.

I think vaccines have been fantastic for mankind in general. But not all vaccines, just like not all drugs, turn out to be what people promise them to be. Do I know anything about the long term safety and efficacy of our current COVID vaccines? Nope. But neither does anyone else.

Israel, one of the worlds most vaccinated countries, now has a higher 7 day avg of covid cases than pre vaccine.
But but but Science says vaccinated people spread the virus less I thought?

 

[Meatwagon]

Israel, one of the worlds most vaccinated countries, now has a higher 7 day avg of covid cases than pre vaccine.
But but but Science says vaccinated people spread the virus less I thought?

The biggest issue is that vaccinated people can transmit this Delta COVID mutation. It may not make them sick, due to the vaccine, but when you can still pass it on to another person. That’s freaking scary.

Oh, and guess what, the virus has mutated again and the Colombian strain called “Mu” may render vaccines completely neutral. So, if they can’t stop that strain from spreading, it’s game over.

I don’t want to go all tim foil hat here, but the speed at which this SARS virus mutates, it makes me wonder if it really was a lab created virus. And if it came from that lab in China that works solely with the SARS virus and it iterations, it’s a giant red flag that 3-4 of the labs scientists all had an unknown illness days before the outbreak happened in Wuhan is really F’ing scary. What other shit are we messing with, and what precautions actually work to keep this from happening again?

 

[Celtic Note]

Disagree. He tore apart the media story covering this. Most people are led to believe Joe Rogan is swallowing horse dewormer. It's silly.

The Japanese scientist who discovered Ivermectin won a Nobel Prize for his discovery. It's a very safe drug that may help with COVID, but our media like to bash it. So be it.

He tore apart a dumb headline that logical thinking people should see as strategically inflammatory. Congrats to him I guess?

So what if the media like to bash things, clearly our media has become less about research/facts and more about clicks. Why any of us waste our time on clickbait headlines is beyond me. They are a flashing warning signs saying what you are about to hear or read is likely garbage.

The guy doing the show proceeded to talk in circles about bad headlines. Then referenced Wikipedia as a source. That was 10 minutes of wasted time.

 

[Celtic Note]

Israel, one of the worlds most vaccinated countries, now has a higher 7 day avg of covid cases than pre vaccine.
But but but Science says vaccinated people spread the virus less I thought?

The claims have been that vaccines reduce hospitalization and mortality. They have done that. They were also likely to reduce people from getting the virus. The reduction in spreading the virus would therefore be lower because you would be less likely to get it. There were not to my knowledge claims by respected medical research institutions about reducing spread if you got the virus despite being vaccinated. The big misconception I see being made was the assumption that this set of vaccines would protect against the variants. They were developed for the original virus, which was more deadly and less communicable then the current mutations (at least the ones in the US). I would liken this to flu vaccines. The vaccines are tailored to the variants that they expect for the season. If you are vaccinated and get the flu it is either a rare occurrence likely due to other health factors like stress or vitamin deficiency, or, more likely you just got another strain.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

US Coronavirus: States that had some of the worst Covid-19 case rates in past week also reported the highest rates of new vaccinations - CNN

Survey: More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have immunity

More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against the coronavirus, mostly through vaccination, a survey of blood donations indicates.
The survey, led by the CDC, also indicates that about twice as many people have been infected with the virus as have been officially counted. More than 39 million Americans have been diagnosed with coronavirus infection since the pandemic started in 2020.
The team, led by the CDC's Dr. Jefferson Jones, set out to determine how close the US might be to some kind of herd immunity -- although they do not claim to have any kind of handle on that yet.
They worked with 17 blood collection organizations working in all 50 states plus Washington, DC, and Puerto Rico to test blood covering 74% of the population. In the end, they tested about 1.4 million samples.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

He tore apart a dumb headline that logical thinking people should see as strategically inflammatory. Congrats to him I guess?

So what if the media like to bash things, clearly our media has become less about research/facts and more about clicks. Why any of us waste our time on clickbait headlines is beyond me. They are a flashing warning signs saying what you are about to hear or read is likely garbage.

The guy doing the show proceeded to talk in circles about bad headlines. Then referenced Wikipedia as a source. That was 10 minutes of wasted time.

I'm still waiting for you to identify and walk us through the two opportunities to "nip this in the bud". Or are you wasting my time?

 

[Celtic Note]

"We missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud twice and so now we are left with it perpetually being in our lives, like the flu."

Please cite the two opportunities we missed to wipe out COVID. I assume when you say that it's "perpetually being in our lives" you are thinking we could wipe it out. Please walk me though the logic here. What did we not do nationally and globally to eliminate it?

In that story I bring to the table the current conditions in Israel. Israel is a leading country in vaccination rate. Yet, their cases of COVID are spiking again, even among the vaccinated. I believe they have already started with booster shots. So if Israel is doing all this, where did they fail to "nip this in the bud"?

We could have stopped it in the bud at the very beginning by stopping travel, initiating a hard lockdown immediately instead of waiting, quarantining those infected for two weeks and doing contact tracing. That would have required a high level of buy in and coordination at a level we were not close to seeing. The second would have been vaccinating before the variants hit. Neither happened so we are likely stuck with this like we are the flu. Variants will continue and we will play what a mole with them. Fortunately, if the flu is any indication, we will be able to limit the impacts through continued vaccination and overtime our bodies gaining defenses to the virus and it variants.

Kudos to Israel for getting vaccinated, but it was too little too late in terms of whipping this thing out. Also, one country cannot do all the lifting.

As for why they are getting sick, well the variants are turning more contagious. Fortunately, between the vaccinations and the way they are mutating, they are becoming less severe in terms of % hospitalized and dying.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

We could have stopped it in the bud at the very beginning by stopping travel, initiating a hard lockdown immediately instead of waiting, quarantining those infected for two weeks and doing contact tracing. That would have required a high level of buy in and coordination at a level we were not close to seeing. The second would have been vaccinating before the variants hit. Neither happened so we are likely stuck with this like we are the flu. Variants will continue and we will play what a mole with them. Fortunately, if the flu is any indication, we will be able to limit the impacts through continued vaccination and overtime our bodies gaining defenses to the virus and it variants.

Kudos to Israel for getting vaccinated, but it was too little too late in terms of whipping this thing out. Also, one country cannot do all the lifting.

As for why they are getting sick, well the variants are turning more contagious. Fortunately, between the vaccinations and the way they are mutating, they are becoming less severe in terms of % hospitalized and dying.

1st opportunity: No travel and a hard lockdown where? All of the world or just the USA? For how long? How is that enforced? The military deploys en mass and declares martial law?

2nd opportunity: Vaccinating before the variants hit? So would that mean mandating/forcing everyone to take experimental vaccines with only Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)? If not everyone, then what percentage should be forced to take the experimental vaccine? Is this legal? Do you forcibly jab those who refuse?

Also provide long term safety data on these vaccines. Opportunity #2 makes a big assumption that everything long term is safe.

Doing all of the above , do you really think COVID goes away world-wide?

 

[AjaxManifesto]

 

[Xerloris]

They also think the death rate is about 20x higher than it actually is.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Name one mRNA based FDA approved drug before the two we have now.

Both vaccines were developed in about 6-9 months and approved in about as much time.

Show me the long term data for both.


I can also show you a list of FDA approved drugs that were pulled from the market once people started using them and effects were recorded over a long period.


I have a PhD in engineering. I work in the aerospace industry. Bad stuff happens when we cut corners. I don't evaluate these things haphazardly. Your choice of words here is a little inflammatory.

I have a PhD in pharmacy.

It is true mRNA technology has been studied for decades. We understand a lot about it, though it took quite awhile to make it work due to several logistical stumbling blocks. The successful application of the technology is new, but the technology itself has been in the works for a long time.

"Cutting corners" is a bit of a misnomer for how things went down with the vaccines. The corners weren't cut, they were compressed. Things that usually happened sequentially instead were done in overlap. That distinction makes a big difference.

You can't equate the long-term effects of vaccines with those of drugs. Vaccines are in the body temporarily, and they train the immune system to do its job better. The "long term" side effects of vaccines historically take no more than 2 months to become known, because once the immune response is provoked, it initiates a stable timeline for the immune response. We're well past that point of concern with the Covid vaccines.

Drugs are often given in a wide range of doses, over a wide range of durations, and (especially for chronic medications), the rarer side effects of them might not be known for years. It is not a comparable situation.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

I have a PhD in pharmacy.

It is true mRNA technology has been studied for decades. We understand a lot about it, though it took quite awhile to make it work due to several logistical stumbling blocks. The successful application of the technology is new, but the technology itself has been in the works for a long time.

"Cutting corners" is a bit of a misnomer for how things went down with the vaccines. The corners weren't cut, they were compressed. Things that usually happened sequentially instead were done in overlap. That distinction makes a big difference.

You can't equate the long-term effects of vaccines with those of drugs. Vaccines are in the body temporarily, and they train the immune system to do its job better. The "long term" side effects of vaccines historically take no more than 2 months to become known, because once the immune response is provoked, it initiates a stable timeline for the immune response. We're well past that point of concern with the Covid vaccines.

Drugs are often given in a wide range of doses, over a wide range of durations, and (especially for chronic medications), the rarer side effects of them might not be known for years. It is not a comparable situation.

So if things were 'compressed', how do you get long term safety data?

When you say historically issues come out in the first two months, is this for mRNA based vaccines or more traditional vaccine delivery technologies that have been in use for decades?

Again, name an mRNA drug or vaccine that has been approved by the FDA besides the vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer. Then we can talk in generalities about when side effects occur and when we think we are out of the woods so to speak. Again, we have no long term data on mRNA types of vaccines. None. So when people bring up historical knowledge with older vaccine technologies it is suspect in my view. The data is the data. We don't have any right now, but eventually we will.

Once FDA approval has been granted, is it guaranteed that no future safety issues will occur? You know the answer to this.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Food for thought...

This chicken vaccine makes its virus more dangerous

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

So if things were 'compressed', how do you get long term safety data?

When you say historically issues come out in the first two months, is this for mRNA based vaccines or more traditional vaccine delivery technologies that have been in use for decades?

Again, name an mRNA drug or vaccine that has been approved by the FDA besides the vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer. Then we can talk in generalities about when side effects occur and when we think we are out of the woods so to speak. Again, we have no long term data on mRNA types of vaccines. None. So when people bring up historical knowledge with older vaccine technologies it is suspect in my view. The data is the data. We don't have any right now, but eventually we will.

Once FDA approval has been granted, is it guaranteed that no future safety issues will occur? You know the answer to this.

It’s no really about the vaccine being free from side effects. It’s about proportionality. The type of potential side effects and likely incidence are orders of magnitude less than the risk of the natural infection in most of the populations that are at risk. I don’t need perfect information to see that the vaccine is a better choice for me than to endure the infection. And I’m not going to hide in a bunker hoping for happier days, so I want to choose the strategy that protects me the best.

Medications including ivermectin can be given to both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, so I don’t see that as relevant to the decision to vaccinate.

I spent part of my morning listening to the rants of a man who refused the vaccine because, “Why are ‘they’ pushing it so hard? If it works as well as they say, if everyone else gets it why should I need to get it?” Basically, he was suggesting he could benefit from herd immunity if everyone else around him has been vaccinated. He’s letting all his neighbors do the work, including exposing themselves to whatever potential side effects, with no risk to himself (besides the risk of actually getting infected when he might not have or might have had a milder course).

I see that same equation and come to a different conclusion. I volunteer to accept whatever minuscule risk of side effects (and hey, maybe I underestimate them) so that if enough of us act in that way we can protect the fragile health people who are unable to vaccinate. I simply see it as a civic duty. The concern for side effects is completely out of proportion to the ongoing damage from the pandemic, and even if I’m wrong about that I willingly volunteer to contribute to the community protection.

I’m not going to argue with anyone or judge anyone for their choices, but that’s how I see it. Part of the reason we haven’t used mRNA vaccines in the past is that the type of viruses that require that approach mutate so much that the effort isn’t worthwhile. But circumstances are different now to where it makes sense to use that technology, even if the solution isn’t permanent.

 

[Oh Baby!]

So if things were 'compressed', how do you get long term safety data?

When you say historically issues come out in the first two months, is this for mRNA based vaccines or more traditional vaccine delivery technologies that have been in use for decades?

Again, name an mRNA drug or vaccine that has been approved by the FDA besides the vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer. Then we can talk in generalities about when side effects occur and when we think we are out of the woods so to speak. Again, we have no long term data on mRNA types of vaccines. None. So when people bring up historical knowledge with older vaccine technologies it is suspect in my view. The data is the data. We don't have any right now, but eventually we will.

Once FDA approval has been granted, is it guaranteed that no future safety issues will occur? You know the answer to this.

I'm wondering what you are actually looking for here...other than a time machine.

As an engineer, do you only use materials and processes that are 40+ years old (proven)?

I guarantee this plane won't malfunction,
I guarantee this condo building won't collapse,
I guarantee this levee will hold,
100%, always, forever, under any conditions.

- A Fool

 

[AjaxManifesto]

I'm wondering what you are actually looking for here...other than a time machine.

As an engineer, do you only use materials and processes that are 40+ years old (proven)?

I guarantee this plane won't malfunction,
I guarantee this condo building won't collapse,
I guarantee this levee will hold,
100%, always, forever, under any conditions.

- A Fool

This makes no sense. New materials, new technologies are brought in all the time....after extensive testing. I'm all for this.

When it comes to vaccines and manned airplanes, I have a high bar of expectation on what data I want to see.

Your risk/reward thinking may differ.

 

[Oh Baby!]

This makes no sense. New materials, new technologies are brought in all the time....after extensive testing. I'm all for this.

When it comes to vaccines and manned airplanes, I have a high bar of expectation on what data I want to see.

Your risk/reward thinking may differ.

Can you see any difference in urgency between the two?

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Can you see any difference in urgency between the two?

Last time I checked for my age group I have a greater than 99% of surviving COVID. Then factor in a previous bout with COVID and continuing habits to safe space, mask up, etc.

So my urgency to get vaxxed is quite low. I'll wait for more data or other vaccine options. I'm watching Novovax. That might be the one I eventually get.

The only other reasons to get vaxxed seem to be drying up. You still need to mask up because you can still spread it and the variants are reducing efficacy. Lots of breakthrough COVID cases are popping up. All that is left are mandates and those seem misguided and punative. I guess the carrots ran out and the government has opted to use sticks.