COVID-19/Coronavirus Talk - Part II

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Thallis

No half measures
Jan 23, 2010
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Behind Blue Eyes
I get vaccines and I am pro vaccine but this vaccine just seems strange to me. They developed a vaccine in like 8 months for a virus that has a 99.8% survival rate and are pushing people to take it like they nobodies business. Frankly it comes off as creepy and cult like how hard people are pushing the vaccine.

Death is not the only danger of covid. Death is not the only danger of covid. Death is not the only danger of covid.

There's a ~1/4 chance of someone getting a long term or permanent disability after contracting covid. Long term loss of smell or taste, long term brain fog, myocarditis, and long term lung capacity issues have all been observed as caused by covid.

Not does the vaccine prevent that, but also the more people that get it, the less of a chance the virus has to mutate into more contagious and deadly variants. We want to get the world back to normal. The more people that get the vaccine, the faster that can happen.
 

Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
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Death is not the only danger of covid. Death is not the only danger of covid. Death is not the only danger of covid.

There's a ~1/4 chance of someone getting a long term or permanent disability after contracting covid. Long term loss of smell or taste, long term brain fog, myocarditis, and long term lung capacity issues have all been observed as caused by covid.

Not does the vaccine prevent that, but also the more people that get it, the less of a chance the virus has to mutate into more contagious and deadly variants. We want to get the world back to normal. The more people that get the vaccine, the faster that can happen.

It's amazing that you know there is a 25% chance of long term side effects of covid. Out of all the people I know and know of who has contracted covid, not a single one has gotten a long term or permanent disability. So either it's extreme luck or your 25% is more bullshit being spouted by the cult of vaccine. It's also amazing that you know the vaccine prevents that when it doesn't even prevent catching and spreading it.
 
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Thallis

No half measures
Jan 23, 2010
9,200
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Behind Blue Eyes
It's amazing that you know there is a 25% chance of long term side effects of covid. Out of all the people I know and know of who has contracted covid, not a single one has gotten a long term or permanent disability. So either it's extreme luck or your 25% is more bullshit being spouted by the cult of vaccine. It's also amazing that you know the vaccine prevents that when it doesn't even prevent catching and spreading it.

Studies show long-haul COVID-19 afflicts 1 in 4 COVID-19 patients, regardless of severity
 
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ort

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Mar 6, 2012
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You can find articles online to back up and confirm any opinion you want to have. You need to look at the sources and the motivations and decide who you want to trust.

People who have decided that some lone doctor in Ohio or some random study from some random institute they've never heard of somehow has more medical clout than hundreds of thousands of scientists and doctors working in unison to solve the greatest health crisis the world has seen in 100 years blows my mind.

The reason we need these draconian laws locking everything down is because we're sadly learning just how selfish so many us are. Rather than doing everything they can to help, they dig in their feet and act like total idiots.

No one likes this crap. We all want it to end. I see two sides... one side that is interested in solving the problem and one side who seems determined to make it worse.

The calculated political polarization of this pandemic is going to go down as one of the greatest tragedies in our lifetimes.

More Americans have now died from this than every single foreign war we've fought in combined. (not including the civil war) but hey, whatever... it's all some sort of conspiracy by big Pharma to sell vaccines... or it's just a made-up scheme to keep democrats in power... yes, we're living through the single biggest international global scam in the history of mankind and the entirety of the media, government and medical community is ALL in on the scam. All over the world, in every single country. Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
 
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AjaxManifesto

Pro sports is becoming predictable and boring
Mar 9, 2016
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Watching these two video interviews with Dr. Malone was probably the most informative 90 minutes I've spent on COVID in the last 18 months. Dr. Malone is often cited as the inventor of mRNA technology (personally, I think there are teams of people who share that distinction), he survived COVID in early 2020, he has since been fully vaccinated, and he's currently taking Ivermectin for long term COVID concerns. He's definitely not anti-vax, rather he thinks our wholesale use of the vaccine may incur some big costs later (he cites his concerns in the video). He also talks about 2nd and 3rd world perceptions on our vaccine use (i.e. in the 1st world we are talking about going for 3rd and maybe 4th doses (boosters) while their most vulnerable haven't had a single dose) and he talks about the different public health strategies in the 2nd and 3rd world. He also talks about the use of pre-existing drugs to treat COVID and lastly about his growing concerns around vaccine mandates. He's definitely not political from what I can tell. He's definitely not tribal. He is very much data and logic driven. You might see him on what are considered right wing media outlets, but I think that is simply a function of him not being on board with the established public health policies coming out of the CDC and the corporate press / social media outlets being so willing to censor opposing viewpoints. He just wants to be heard and he has something to say. Food for thought. He definitely turned some of my perceptions around.

BTW, the interviewer was excellent. He set up the questions and then got the heck out of the way. It is perfect.

Part 1
PART 1: Dr. Robert Malone, mRNA Vaccine Inventor, on Latest COVID-19 Data, Booster Shots, and the Shattered Scientific ‘Consensus’

Part 2
PART 2: Dr. Robert Malone on Ivermectin, Escape Mutants, and the Faulty Logic of Vaccine Mandates
 
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Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
7,182
7,729
St.Louis
You can find articles online to back up and confirm any opinion you want to have. You need to look at the sources and the motivations and decide who you want to trust.

People who have decided that some lone doctor in Ohio or some random study from some random institute they've never heard of somehow has more medical clout than hundreds of thousands of scientists and doctors working in unison to solve the greatest health crisis the world has seen in 100 years blows my mind.

The reason we need these draconian laws locking everything down is because we're sadly learning just how selfish so many us are. Rather than doing everything they can to help, they dig in their feet and act like total idiots.

No one likes this crap. We all want it to end. I see two sides... one side that is interested in solving the problem and one side who seems determined to make it worse.

The calculated political polarization of this pandemic is going to go down as one of the greatest tragedies in our lifetimes.

More Americans have now died from this than every single foreign war we've fought in combined. (not including the civil war) but hey, whatever... it's all some sort of conspiracy by big Pharma to sell vaccines... or it's just a made-up scheme to keep democrats in power... yes, we're living through the single biggest international global scam in the history of mankind and the entirety of the media, government and medical community is ALL in on the scam. All over the world, in every single country. Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

We watched governors literally put covid positive patients into nursing homes to murder the elderly and you still think the government has your best interest in mind? What about the swine flu vaccine? Or Agent orange? or the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. They don't give a single shit about you.
 

Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
7,182
7,729
St.Louis
Watching these two video interviews with Dr. Malone was probably the most informative 90 minutes I've spent on COVID in the last 18 months. Dr. Malone is often cited as the inventor of mRNA technology (personally, I think there are teams of people who share that distinction), he survived COVID in early 2020, he has since been fully vaccinated, and he's currently taking Ivermectin for long term COVID concerns. He's definitely not anti-vax, rather he thinks our wholesale use of the vaccine may incur some big costs later (he cites his concerns in the video). He also talks about 2nd and 3rd world perceptions on our vaccine use (i.e. in the 1st world we are talking about going for 3rd and maybe 4th doses (boosters) while their most vulnerable haven't had a single dose) and he talks about the different public health strategies in the 2nd and 3rd world. He also talks about the use of pre-existing drugs to treat COVID and lastly about his growing concerns around vaccine mandates. He's definitely not political from what I can tell. He's definitely not tribal. He is very much data and logic driven. You might see him on what are considered right wing media outlets, but I think that is simply a function of him not being on board with the established public health policies coming out of the CDC and the corporate press / social media outlets being so willing to censor opposing viewpoints. He just wants to be heard and he has something to say. Food for thought. He definitely turned some of my perceptions around.

BTW, the interviewer was excellent. He set up the questions and then got the heck out of the way. It is perfect.

Part 1
PART 1: Dr. Robert Malone, mRNA Vaccine Inventor, on Latest COVID-19 Data, Booster Shots, and the Shattered Scientific ‘Consensus’

Part 2
PART 2: Dr. Robert Malone on Ivermectin, Escape Mutants, and the Faulty Logic of Vaccine Mandates

Funny you should mention Dr. malone.

 

AjaxManifesto

Pro sports is becoming predictable and boring
Mar 9, 2016
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I think what we are suffering from at many levels is a politically and culturally polarized US that has forced us into distinct camps of thinking: we are either all for something or all against something. We get into our tribes and fight it out. We are either for the ONE chosen solution to a problem, as dictated by the government or influential organizations, or we are for the opposite. The media and politicians LOVE this division because it gives them more power and more "clicks". Can we break out of this cultural rot? I'm hoping sports comes back big. It's the break we all need. Clear some heads.

Also, as Dr. Malone alludes to in the videos I posted above, there are some serious logical disconnects in our policies and the statements by our leaders and "experts". These flaws are confusing people and undermining trust. When that happens we start to gravitate towards the safety of a tribe. I'm trying to resist that urge myself. It's hard to do, but self-awareness is the first step.
 

Blueston

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Dec 4, 2016
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I think what we are suffering from at many levels is a politically and culturally polarized US that has forced us into distinct camps of thinking: we are either all for something or all against something. We get into our tribes and fight it out. We are either for the ONE chosen solution to a problem, as dictated by the government or influential organizations, or we are for the opposite. The media and politicians LOVE this division because it gives them more power and more "clicks". Can we break out of this cultural rot? I'm hoping sports comes back big. It's the break we all need. Clear some heads.

Also, as Dr. Malone alludes to in the videos I posted above, there are some serious logical disconnects in our policies and the statements by our leaders and "experts". These flaws are confusing people and undermining trust. When that happens we start to gravitate towards the safety of a tribe. I'm trying to resist that urge myself. It's hard to do, but self-awareness is the first step.
This is hilarious. You reject the science. Dismissed EB’s thorough knockdown of your straw man position. Ignore the data. And now you bemoan tribalism?
 
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A Real Barn Burner

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Apr 25, 2016
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First, I appreciate the response and as a fellow GIS’er, I am excited to know we have another here in the community!

On the vaccine front, I think there is a disconnect in messaging and interpretation of that messaging nation-wide and probably world-wide. The vaccine and the statistical analysis provided was for the ordinal strain. So, when a Fauci makes a claim, I am assuming he is talking about the vaccine in relation to the original, not the variants. The timeline for all of this is pretty important because we are living though a fast passed changing dynamic. So, what is said one day can change based on new information. Is that frustrating? Absolutely. Is it also understandable? Absolutely. I personally am not one to latch onto something that was said and hold it as a truth in perpetuity, because the dynamic is changing with a high degree of pace. It’s likely that the statement was true at that point in time.

The vaccines did seemingly slow the spread at the onset before variants took hold (I haven’t seen a causality analysis though), but when paired with the clinical trial data showing a 90% reduction in chance of getting the original virus when exposed, this theory seems to hold some weight. To your point about breakthrough cases, I would be interested in seeing what percentage of breakthroughs cause by the original virus occurred amongst those vaccinated. If that percentage was around 10% then I wouldn’t be surprised given the data from the clinical trials. I suspect we won’t have that day though, because it will be intermixed with people who had variant strains, unless we are able to establish a clear timeline for when variants started hitting (which, like the original itself, will likely have been before the first large scale documentation of cases). One would expect that a great proportion of those breakthroughs would be from the variants because the vaccine was not developed for them specifically.

I cannot respond to the other parts of your post at the moment because I have to get going. Will try later.

I am glad to know you have GIS background as well. I recall and believe when this first started we discussed some GIS aspects of COVID mapping. I have avoided this conversation since the beginning because it’s frustrating to engage in these discussions. My apologize if I seemed aggressive in my Initial response. I assure you I would rather have an open conversation on this topic in which I’m enlightened than just have an argument that goes no where.

I agree the messaging on the vaccines and how we are dealing with this Covid Crisis has been a mess. Our changing understanding of the Virus from asymptomatic spread, it being airborne not spread just by droplets , and now the variants combine to make understanding of all the different variables difficult.

I would also like to see the original data on the vaccines and breakthrough cases. However, for paperwork reason the CDC stoped asking hospitals to track all cases. They started to track only the worst breakthrough cases that required long hospitalization. I don’t know if that data will ever be what we need it to be to make any inferences or correlations.
 
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Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
16,962
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I am glad to know you have GIS background as well. I recall and believe when this first started we discussed some GIS aspects of COVID mapping. I have avoided this conversation since the beginning because it’s frustrating to engage in these discussions. My apologize if I seemed aggressive in my Initial response. I assure you I would rather have an open conversation on this topic in which I’m enlightened than just have an argument that goes no where.

I agree the messaging on the vaccines and how we are dealing with this Covid Crisis has been a mess. Our changing understanding of the Virus from asymptomatic spread, it being airborne not spread just by droplets , and now the variants combine to make understanding of all the different variables difficult.

I would also like to see the original data on the vaccines and breakthrough cases. However, for paperwork reason the CDC stoped asking hospitals to track all cases. They started to track only the worst breakthrough cases that required long hospitalization. I don’t know if that data will ever be what we need it to be to make any inferences or correlations.
I didn’t think you were aggressive, which was appreciated.
The mapping of all this is very fascinating.

I started reading the research you provided, but two family emergencies happened (found out about one when I started reading), so I have since been preoccupied. I hope to jump back in once things settle down, but no telling when that will be.

Quick note, Mercy health system just put out on social medial that data from all their hospitals shows that over 90% of the people that are hospitalized are unvaccinated. I didn’t see the particulars of the data, but it seemed worth sharing.
 

Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
7,182
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St.Louis
The guy is a crackpot. Google him.

You google this guys name and it's just article after article of passive-agressive "oh sweetie, no"-vibe articles condescending this guy as a whackjob. No discussion, no actual comparison of ideas or testing or considering of there being the insane possibility of being able to treat a disease maybe more than one way. Just tearing him down as a "vaccine-denier". A virologist and immunologist doctor who Didn't just contribute to but founded the entire basis for it. He's the guy who figured out how to transport foreign mRNA into cells.


Clearly a crackpot.

Edited because it seemed hostile and that was not my intent.
 

ort

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Mar 6, 2012
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Why should we put any extra weight into the opinion of one doctor when there are thousands and thousands of doctors/scientists with the complete opposite opinion?

He sounds like a bitter man who has finally found a way to get the world to pay attention to him. He went on Steve Bannon's podcast, which pretty much tells me everything I need to know.
 
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Xerloris

reckless optimism
Jun 9, 2015
7,182
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Why should we put any extra weight into the opinion of one doctor when there are thousands and thousands of doctors/scientists with the complete opposite opinion?

He sounds like a bitter man who has finally found a way to get the world to pay attention to him. He went on Steve Bannon's podcast, which pretty much tells me everything I need to know.

He's not the only one with this opinion. There are also thousands of doctors and scientists that agree with him. I think the real question should be that if ivermectin doesn't help then why not let people take it and find out for themselves? It's a perfectly safe drug that's been used in people since the 70's and FDA approved since I believe 1986. There's no reason for this campaign of convincing people it's nothing but a horse dewormer. Might as well blackball penicillin and call it nothing but a fungus.
 

ort

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Mar 6, 2012
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I have no skin in the game with ivermectin. If it works, great. Let people take it.

They should also take the vaccine, which has a proven track record backed up by mountains of data.

What people find so baffling is that people are so quick to be distrustful of a vaccine, yet are so quick to embrace things like ivermectin. This is what is frustrating. We all want this thing to be over with. We're all working like hell to end this thing as quickly as possible and with as little life lost as possible and it feels like so many people are acting in opposition to that goal.
 

Evestay

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Aug 20, 2011
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I have no skin in the game with ivermectin. If it works, great. Let people take it.

They should also take the vaccine, which has a proven track record backed up by mountains of data.

What people find so baffling is that people are so quick to be distrustful of a vaccine, yet are so quick to embrace things like ivermectin. This is what is frustrating. We all want this thing to be over with. We're all working like hell to end this thing as quickly as possible and with as little life lost as possible and it feels like so many people are acting in opposition to that goal.
It is just ridiculous that this far into the pandemic, the standard practice when a doctor finds out you are positive is to send you home and to take ibuprofen unless you can no longer breathe. Then you are supposed to go back to the hospital and they might put you on a ventilator.

Forget vaccines either way, we are not developing useful treatment options. How hard is it to give patients vitamin D and Zinc in appropriate doses (and even ivermectin if a doctor believes it can have any sort of positive benefit). Those things yield better outcomes but it is not standard practice to recommend them. Doctors who recommend them get looked down upon by the establishment. It is maddening.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Why should we put any extra weight into the opinion of one doctor when there are thousands and thousands of doctors/scientists with the complete opposite opinion?

He sounds like a bitter man who has finally found a way to get the world to pay attention to him. He went on Steve Bannon's podcast, which pretty much tells me everything I need to know.
Because consensus opinion is NOT science. There are numerous examples where a lone voice bucked accepted conventions and was eventually vindicated. For example:

1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak - Wikipedia

Dr Snow died in disgrace even though his theory was correct. It was not politically expedient to publicly acknowledge fecal-oral transmission was happening, and public health officials replaced the pump handle after the cholera outbreak subsided. But time and good science eventually revealed the truth.

This culture of chilling dissent and silencing voices of disagreement, shaming scientists and doctors, it’s the opposite of science. I remember a Chinese virologist getting black-balled last year for suggesting Covid came from the Wuhan lab. But now it seems nearly certain that is the case, with some of the details of its genome and the confirmation that gain-of-function research was funded there. But last year this possibility was not given fair hearing nor appropriate scientific curiosity because of groups of scientists behaving politically rather than with agnostic curiosity that reflects the true scientific spirit.

I don’t know the guy being discussed, but he IS an accomplished researcher who ought to know enough about the subject to have an educated opinion. Scientific debate isn’t settled by arguing. It’s settled by performing experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis. But we are seeing way too much of the social media court influencing what is allowed to be questioned.
 
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KirkOut

EveryoneOut
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If you get vaccinated I don’t really care what sort of human or livestock medicine you want to supplement yourself with. If you don’t get vaccinated, please have the decency to not begin to start trusting doctors only once you get sick, and take a hospital bed from somebody else.
 

ort

Registered User
Mar 6, 2012
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Because consensus opinion is NOT science. There are numerous examples where a lone voice bucked accepted conventions and was eventually vindicated. For example:

1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak - Wikipedia

Dr Snow died in disgrace even though his theory was correct. It was not politically expedient to publicly acknowledge fecal-oral transmission was happening, and public health officials replaced the pump handle after the cholera outbreak subsided. But time and good science eventually revealed the truth.

This culture of chilling dissent and silencing voices of disagreement, shaming scientists and doctors, it’s the opposite of science. I remember a Chinese virologist getting black-balled last year for suggesting Covid came from the Wuhan lab. But now it seems nearly certain that is the case, with some of the details of its genome and the confirmation that gain-of-function research was funded there. But last year this possibility was not given fair hearing nor appropriate scientific curiosity because of groups of scientists behaving politically rather than with agnostic curiosity that reflects the true scientific spirit.

I don’t know the guy being discussed, but he IS an accomplished researcher who ought to know enough about the subject to have an educated opinion. Scientific debate isn’t settled by arguing. It’s settled by performing experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis. But we are seeing way too much of the social media court influencing what is allowed to be questioned.

1854... interesting... Yes, sure, there are numerous examples of a lone voice being correct. Just like there are hundreds of thousands of times through history where the consensus was completely correct.

It is not near certain that the virus came from a lab, nor is any of the willful gain-of-function stuff a certainty. We just don't know.
 
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AjaxManifesto

Pro sports is becoming predictable and boring
Mar 9, 2016
24,680
16,121
St. Louis
Why should we put any extra weight into the opinion of one doctor when there are thousands and thousands of doctors/scientists with the complete opposite opinion?

He sounds like a bitter man who has finally found a way to get the world to pay attention to him. He went on Steve Bannon's podcast, which pretty much tells me everything I need to know.
Did you watch any of the videos I posted? He sounds pretty reasonable to me. He's pro-vax, but concerned about our blanket application of it.
 

AjaxManifesto

Pro sports is becoming predictable and boring
Mar 9, 2016
24,680
16,121
St. Louis
If you get vaccinated I don’t really care what sort of human or livestock medicine you want to supplement yourself with. If you don’t get vaccinated, please have the decency to not begin to start trusting doctors only once you get sick, and take a hospital bed from somebody else.

This is a dumb comment. Ivermectin has been around for decades and the discoverers of it won a Nobel Prize, not for saving animals, but for saving millions of humans around the world. It's a safe drug that MAY be helpful in fighting COVID. The studies are being conducted now.

As to your last comment, do you tell fat people, smokers, drug users, or those engaging in risky behavior to "have the decency" to not take a hospital bed from someone else?

Kind of bizarre tribal thinking on your part.
 
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AjaxManifesto

Pro sports is becoming predictable and boring
Mar 9, 2016
24,680
16,121
St. Louis
Please watch what is happening in Israel. It's an interesting test case. They take good data and analyze it. They are much better than our CDC in this regard. They are going on vaccine shot #4 for high risk people. We will see what happens there. Meanwhile, in 2nd and 3rd world countries some of their most vulnerable have yet to receive a single vaccine shot. They are managing with drugs like Ivermectin.
 
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