Player Discussion Connor McDavid Part VI: Hart, Ross and Lindsay Winner

[Fourier]

Meh, they would evolve. The thing is both could have the puck on their stick lots. If they were a line the Oilers would always have the puck.

It doesn't work that way. There is only one puck. Asking either player to "evolve" is basically asking both players to move away from their strengths.

 

[CornKicker]

Eberle's inability to finish scoring chances his last year here is still mind boggling to me. He got so many chances to score, but his finishing ability of years past seemed to completely dry up. He'd flub dekes that he normally does in his sleep, he'd miss the net or hit the goalie in the chest from prime shooting areas where he used to pick corners. Really doesn't make much sense given that he scored at a 30 goal pace the season before with McDavid.

which is the same thing that happened to Lucic last season. how many posts or missed nets or tap in where he got robbed? id say at least 20-25. he converts on half of those and no ones trying to give him away for free. he is going to bounce back playing with Drai this year because Nuge/McD together will be as deadly as Benn/Seguin

 

[McGoMcD]

It doesn't work that way. There is only one puck. Asking either player to "evolve" is basically asking both players to move away from their strengths.

You have no idea. Of course there are 2 effects, the one you see first which you are only thinking of. Which is right infront of your face, that both can't carry the puck at the same time. But your missing the other effect, the fact they would have the puck much more. Potentially the second effect far out weights the first and they would thrive. We will never know but it is entirely possible. They said Lemiuex and Gretz shouldn't play together for that reason. Turns out they thrived.

 

[McRpro]

You have no idea. Of course there are 2 effects, the one you see first which you are only thinking of. Which is right infront of your face, that both can't carry the puck at the same time. But your missing the other effect, the fact they would have the puck much more. Potentially the second effect far out weights the first and they would thrive. We will never know but it is entirely possible. They said Lemiuex and Gretz shouldn't play together for that reason. Turns out they thrived.

Lemieux and Gretzky were two supremely intelligent players. McDavid is too. Hall? Not so much.

 

[ohheyhemsky]

I think it's certainly worth trying... anything to potentially get that PP going is worth trying.


At evens they need to find another good winger for McDavid as well... even though McDavid can produce with almost everyone... he obviously does better with certain types of players than others.

Small samples yes, but I hope they continue to try the RNH-McDavid-(Rattie/Aberg) combos and see if there really might be some solid chemistry there.

Rattie and Aberg are both in that same category where they are basically looking at their last chances to stick at the NHL level... and if they can play a simple game and use their abilities to help finish plays that McDavid creates... I see no reason they can't be solid contributors on that line.

Both RH shots, put up similar PPG in their time in Edmonton and can play with speed.

Why doesn't Todd try the obvious thing first? That's the question here. I wonder what it would be like to watch him try and solve a 4 piece jigsaw puzzle.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Both RH shots, put up similar PPG in their time in Edmonton and can play with speed.

Why doesn't Todd try the obvious thing first? That's the question here. I wonder what it would be like to watch him try and solve a 4 piece jigsaw puzzle.

The obvious thing? You mean like put lucic on the line he can’t keep up with?

 

[Fourier]

You have no idea. Of course there are 2 effects, the one you see first which you are only thinking of. Which is right infront of your face, that both can't carry the puck at the same time. But your missing the other effect, the fact they would have the puck much more. Potentially the second effect far out weights the first and they would thrive. We will never know but it is entirely possible. They said Lemiuex and Gretz shouldn't play together for that reason. Turns out they thrived.

What is it that I have no idea about?

Why would they have the puck much more? Hall's forte is driving the puck from the Oiler's blue line into the oppositions zone at speed. It's not maintaining control or puck retrieval. The problem is that it is better for McDavid to do the carrying since he is better at absolutely every aspect of the game than Hall. In fact Nuge likely helps McDavid more in keeping possession because he is far better at puck retrieval than Hall and he actually knows to get the puck to McDavid. .

And who said that Lemieux and Gretzky could not play together especially over a short period. And what does this even have to do with Hall and McDavid. Lemieux's game was perfectly fine for Gretzky since he was a fantastic talent with a great mind for the game who also happened to be a terrific natural goal scorer. Hall is no where near the player Lemieux was and is certainly not even close to being as versatile. And these are the two guys who would have to "adjust" to playing with the better player. (Gretzky was clearly the alpha dog when they played together). This is about as apples to oranges as you can get.

 

[McGoMcD]

What is it that I have no idea about?

Why would they have the puck much more? Hall's forte is driving the puck from the Oiler's blue line into the oppositions zone at speed. It's not maintaining control or puck retrieval. The problem is that it is better for McDavid to do the carrying since he is better at absolutely every aspect of the game than Hall. In fact Nuge likely helps McDavid more in keeping possession because he is far better at puck retrieval than Hall and he actually knows to get the puck to McDavid. .

And who said that Lemieux and Gretzky could not play together especially over a short period. And what does this even have to do with Hall and McDavid. Lemieux's game was perfectly fine for Gretzky since he was a fantastic talent with a great mind for the game who also happened to be a terrific natural goal scorer. Hall is no where near the player Lemieux was and is certainly not even close to being as versatile. And these are the two guys who would have to "adjust" to playing with the better player. (Gretzky was clearly the alpha dog when they played together). This is about as apples to oranges as you can get.

You have no idea how they would have actually done together. You seem certain you do know though. (and no the small sample size they did play together doesn't count)

Why would they have the puck much more??? Cause they would keep the puck longer once in control of it, and they would get more pucks from the other team. Pretty much that simple. Hall is great at carrying and controlling the puck, so is McD. Together they would keep the puck much longer. Again I am not even saying I would want Hall with McD if on the team, but, they could have done very well together.

And Gretz and Mario are the same in that people said both wanted to carry the puck all the time so they shouldn't be together. Exactly the same argument. People questioned if they should play together seeing as one would have the puck less. Turned out just fine.

 

[Fourier]

You have no idea how they would have actually done together. You seem certain you do know though. (and no the small sample size they did play together doesn't count)

Why would they have the puck much more??? Cause they would keep the puck longer once in control of it, and they would get more pucks from the other team. Pretty much that simple. Hall is great at carrying and controlling the puck, so is McD. Together they would keep the puck much longer. Again I am not even saying I would want Hall with McD if on the team, but, they could have done very well together.

And Gretz and Mario are the same in that people said both wanted to carry the puck all the time so they shouldn't be together. Exactly the same argument. People questioned if they should play together seeing as one would have the puck less. Turned out just fine.

I've actually watched the two play together without success where the issues I talked about were quite obvious. You have never seen them play together with any success and yet somehow you are sure they would dominate while I have no idea how they would do together? Admittedly, they did not play that much together so no one can say definitively. But it is easy to see that their styles don't match. And Hall has yet to show that he can play a subservient role successfully outside of a very small sample size with Crosby in one WHC where his success actually came by playing much the same way as he always did on a big ice surface that is very suited to his game. It is also worth noting that Crosby is a very different sort of player from McDavid by the way.

Gretzky and Lemieux played together for a couple of games in an all star tournament. Their success came with Gretzky being the playmaker and Lemieux being the trigger man. As I have already stated comparing Gretzky/Lemieux to McDavid/Hall is apples to oranges in good part because Lemieux was simply light years ahead of Hall in pretty much every important aspect of the game. But had they both been on the same team in the NHL they would not have played together at ES.

As to your possession claim, I have already explained the fallacy in your argument. Once the puck gets into the zone, which takes a few seconds, you have to keep it or if you lose it you have to get it back. Those are not Hall's strengths.

 

[McGoMcD]

I've actually watched the two play together without success where the issues I talked about were quite obvious. You have never seen them play together with any success and yet somehow you are sure they would dominate while I have no idea how they would do together? Admittedly, they did not play that much together so no one can say definitively. But it is easy to see that their styles don't match. And Hall has yet to show that he can play a subservient role successfully outside of a very small sample size with Crosby in one WHC where his success actually came by playing much the same way as he always did on a big ice surface that is very suited to his game. It is also worth noting that Crosby is a very different sort of player from McDavid by the way.

Gretzky and Lemieux played together for a couple of games in an all star tournament. Their success came with Gretzky being the playmaker and Lemieux being the trigger man. As I have already stated comparing Gretzky/Lemieux to McDavid/Hall is apples to oranges in good part because Lemieux was simply light years ahead of Hall in pretty much every important aspect of the game. But had they both been on the same team in the NHL they would not have played together at ES.

As to your possession claim, I have already explained the fallacy in your argument. Once the puck gets into the zone, which takes a few seconds, you have to keep it or if you lose it you have to get it back. Those are not Hall's strengths.

This is the point, they would have evolved. Just cause they didn't have success doesn't mean they wouldn't have. You are watching Hall in the context of not playing with McD. So of course he appears to have different strengths. He is responding the situation he is currently being put in. You can't just say cause that is how he looks now that is how he would have looked with McD. He would have responded differently. You are trying to draw a conclusion about a situation from what you see now, not realizing that they would have adjusted differently and in ways you or I can't imagine. Hall would have focused more on puck retrieval ect if paired with Hall. Nuge is a prime example actually. Many said he should carry the puck and drive his own line. While a guy like Maroon or Lucic should play with McD and get the puck. Turns out Nuge is just fine not carrying the puck as much and focusing on retrieving it. It is really no different. Nuge didn't appear to be a good compliment for McD at all, turns out he was. It seems obvious now but that is just hindsight. It didn't appear obvious before it was actually tried.

So the point is who knows. Both are talented, smart, and fast players. There isn't a reason to think they couldn't have evolved to complement each other. We don't know, we sadly will never know.

 

[Fourier]

This is the point, they would have evolved. Just cause they didn't have success doesn't mean they wouldn't have. You are watching Hall in the context of not playing with McD. So of course he appears to have different strengths. He is responding the situation he is currently being put in. You can't just say cause that is how he looks now that is how he would have looked with McD. He would have responded differently. You are trying to draw a conclusion about a situation from what you see now, not realizing that they would have adjusted differently and in ways you or I can't imagine. Hall would have focused more on puck retrieval ect if paired with Hall. Nuge is a prime example actually. Many said he should carry the puck and drive his own line. While a guy like Maroon or Lucic should play with McD and get the puck. Turns out Nuge is just fine not carrying the puck as much and focusing on retrieving it. It is really no different. Nuge didn't appear to be a good compliment for McD at all, turns out he was. It seems obvious now but that is just hindsight. It didn't appear obvious before it was actually tried.

So the point is who knows. Both are talented, smart, and fast players. There isn't a reason to think they couldn't have evolved to complement each other. We don't know, we sadly will never know.

I always thought that Nuge would work with McDavid. So did pretty much everyone else around here. Nuge is a much more cerebral player than Hall. Hall plays with emotion and brute force. This has been his MO since he was a junior. Nuge moves the puck quickly and reads off others much better than Hall. This works very well with McDavid. He also gets his shot off faster than Hall which again works better than McDavid. Nuge is also much more likely to retrieve a lost puck or strip an opponent than Hall. Over all his game is much more suited to McDavid than Hall's.

When Nuge played with Hall he played very differently than he did by himself. While many seem to think that Nuge's offensive success was from riding Hall's coat tails in fact Nuge individually put up more points per minute away from Hall than he did with Hall. The reason is that when he played with Hall he deferred to Hall and focused on defense. On his own line he had more of the responsibility to take the lead. Hall has never really adjusted his game to his line mates strength, again going back to junior.

Go back to the days of the old Oilers. Kurri was an almost perfect line mate for Gretzky because he knew how to play off of Gretzky's skills and how to complement them. Kurri away from Gretzky was actually a very different player who was capable of carrying the ball. But with Gretzky he knew that his role was to do all of the little things extremely well.

hall is a great player. But at this point your argument comes down to ...Hall would change and still be as good. I've watched him play for a decade and have yet to see any evidence that this would have happened.

 

[nexttothemoon]

McDavid ES pts/60 with:

ex-Oilers:

Slepyshev 4.03 pts/60 134 ES minutes
Yakupov 3.63 pts/60 215 ES minutes
Pouliot 3.47 pts/60 345 ES minutes
Hall 3.09 pts/60 97 ES minutes
Maroon 2.75 pts/60 1440 ES minutes
Eberle 2.55 pts/60 824 ES minutes

 

[Little Fury]

I've actually watched the two play together without success where the issues I talked about were quite obvious.

Boy if having 56% of the shot attempts, 54%of the shots, and 60% of the goals is "without success" imagine if they had actually gelled.

 

[Aceboogie]

McDavid ES pts/60 with:

Yakupov 3.63 pts/60 215 ES minutes
Hall 3.09 pts/60 97 ES minutes

Noone should be using under 20 game sample sizes for anything

 

[nexttothemoon]

Noone should be using under 20 game sample sizes for anything

No doubt... just put them up there for reference.

Actually though... RNH and McDavid have only played 263 ES minutes together over the past 3 seasons and we are proclaiming those two as MONEY together... so sample size is still an issue there as well.

 

[Fourier]

Boy if having 56% of the shot attempts, 54%of the shots, and 60% of the goals is "without success" imagine if they had actually gelled.

Fair enough.

 

[McFlyingV]

which is the same thing that happened to Lucic last season. how many posts or missed nets or tap in where he got robbed? id say at least 20-25. he converts on half of those and no ones trying to give him away for free. he is going to bounce back playing with Drai this year because Nuge/McD together will be as deadly as Benn/Seguin

I definitely don't disagree that Lucic's numbers were far worse than they truly should have been. Lucic wasn't very good and he got progressively worse as the season went on and he fell deeper into his half season slump. I think he definitely can bounce back to some degree, but I also think that the point you made is much more indicative of how elite McDavid and Drai are than it is a compliment to Lucic. Those chances he kept missing, hitting posts, or getting robbed on were a by product of playing with 2 elite centres and shows that those two are capable of even more than they showed this past year.

 

[iCanada]

McDavid gets hole-in-one golfing with brother

 

[MoneyGuy]

McDavid gets hole-in-one golfing with brother

Big deal. Kim Jong-un got six holes in one his very first time out. But I hear he can’t skate as well as McDavid does.

 

[iCanada]

I heard Kim had the best slapper the world has ever seen, and he was good enough to win NK ice hockey gold at the Olympics.

He just didn't play because no NHL teams offered him enough cash.

I even heard he can negotiate on business as well as... Trump! Remarkable man that Kim.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

McDavid gets hole-in-one golfing with brother

Never mind. Par 3, 199 yards.

 

[iCanada]

Never mind. Par 3, 199 yards.

I'm still pretty impressed. I think that's wild. So long as the PGA tour keeps their mitts off of him.

 

[rec28]

https://www.bardown.com/a-designer-gave-current-nhl-players-vintage-flow-and-facial-hair-1.1146804

/been laughing at this all afternoon...

 

[Section337]

https://www.bardown.com/a-designer-gave-current-nhl-players-vintage-flow-and-facial-hair-1.1146804

/been laughing at this all afternoon...

I am not sure if I hoped he spent more time working on that look or face-offs this summer.

 

[oobga]

Nifty chart.

That McDavid kid knows how to create quality chances for himself



Lots of guys on this chart are the passengers on their line, getting set up by a better guy. Able to camp out close to the net and have the puck come to them. Not so much for McDavid.