Connor McDavid and Jesse Puljujärvi Vs Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner going forward?

[GodEmperor]

Matthews and Marner are a far safer bet.

 

[Critical13]

Yes, play style, this I agree. It does not mean Marner will have a similar impact to Kane in his career.

Kotkaniemi may not have as a good a career as Backstrom but I wouldn't jump all over you to tell you that if you made the comparison. Nothing wrong with speculation and a little bit of hope. It's preseason, people are reaching maximum hype for their players right now.

 

[Volica]

Eh, not sure about that. Two elite players versus one generational player, I'd probably lean toward the two elite players.

This poll depends entirely on what Puljujarvi ultimately is. If he's a top six forward, then it's the Oilers' duo. If he struggles and can't ever consistently find himself as a 60 point forward, then it's the Leafs' duo.

Would you have traded Sidney Crosby at 20 years old for Eric Staal and Zach Parise?

 

[Lovedemfanboys]

I say it's because Puljujarvi has only played a total of 93 NHL games with 13 goals and 15 assists.

Marner lead the Leafs in total points last season and improved his stats in his 2nd season compared to his rookie season.

Didn't you argue back in 'Is Mackinnon top-10 player' thread that assistants don't matter and it is all about goals? Your double standards aren't surprise but still.. Holy hypocrisy.

 

[Laineux]

Eh, not sure about that. Two elite players versus one generational player, I'd probably lean toward the two elite players.

This poll depends entirely on what Puljujarvi ultimately is. If he's a top six forward, then it's the Oilers' duo. If he struggles and can't ever consistently find himself as a 60 point forward, then it's the Leafs' duo.

I feel that building around the best player in the world is just more valuable. It's easier to find a replacement for a player like Marner than it is to make up the gap between McDavid and Matthews, IMO, even if Puljujärvi doesn't pan out.

I think that a generational talent like McDavid is also less prone to decline.

 

[filinski77]

No he didn’t.

Marner turned 21 at the very end of the season last year. His age 21 season is the one coming up and I expect him to top 82 points

1st year following draft: Kane 72 points, Marner playing in the OHL
2nd year following draft: Kane 70 points, Marner 61
3rd year following draft: Kane 88 points, Marner 69

Kane is what, 5 or 6 months older? Compare based off their draft years like normal.

Worth noting that in Kanes first year, he led his team in points with 10 more than #2. Second year he was #2 on the team, and his third year he led the team again, with 19 more points than #2.

Marner was 5th on the team in Draft+2 season, and then first (but really second, due to Matthews large amount of missed games) in his D+3.

Sure Marner ((if everything goes absolutely right), may reach Kane's level one day. But as of right now, Kane is far ahead at comparable stages.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Would you have traded Sidney Crosby at 20 years old for Eric Staal and Zach Parise?

I think Matthews and Marner are going to be better than Staal and Parise, so that analogy doesn't work.

 

[Volica]

I think Matthews and Marner are going to be better than Staal and Parise, so that analogy doesn't work.

Staal was considered a top 5 centre in his prime. Parise was a +PPG two-way winger until injuries/Minny took their toll on him.

 

[pcruz]

Staal was considered a top 5 centre in his prime. Parise was a +PPG two-way winger until injuries/Minny took their toll on him.

Yes, Staal was great in his prime, and Matthews will be much better than top 5 centre in his.
Parise had all of 2 seasons at ppg. Outside of those 2 seasons, his best was 69 points. What a coincidence!

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He will, but not Kane.

I also wouldn't bet on Marner being able to recreate Sharps peak from 07 to 13, simply because, not a lot of people do.

The original point was that, no, Marner is not an Art Ross, Hart, Conn Smythe, lead the league in points, shatters point streak record, kind of talent.

He's a top 6 winger, a good one, but a top six winger.

So to clarify, we eliminate most of Sharp's data set and cherry pick the peak. What happens when we do that? Well we find out that even his cherry picked peak produces a lower points production pace than Mitch Marner's 19 and 20 year old seasons. When he is just learning the league and spending time on 3rd and 4th lines.

Yes, a lot of players do not do as well as Sharp. Mitch will obliterate him and barring injuries finish his career surprisingly close to Kane. Far closer to Kane than Sharp, which is the point being debated.

 

[Laineux]

Yes, Staal was great in his prime, and Matthews will be much better than top 5 centre in his.

That's quite the standard there. Unless Matthews enters the discussion of the best player in the game for an extended period of time, that statement is hyperbole.

And I think Matthews will be better than Staal.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Staal was considered a top 5 centre in his prime. Parise was a +PPG two-way winger until injuries/Minny took their toll on him.

That's debatable about Staal. His prime coincided with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Joe Thornton, Henrik Sedin, Datsyuk, etc. Those guys were ahead of Staal. That's already 5 centers who were ahead of Staal.

As for Parise, he was grittier than Marner and probably Marner will not match his goal scoring ability. But I think Marner's got the potential to be a more skilled point producer than Parise was.

 

[pcruz]

That's quite the standard there. Unless Matthews enters the discussion of the best player in the game for an extended period of time, that statement is hyperbole.

And I think Matthews will be better than Staal.

Somehow, I believe that a player who scored 74 goals in his rookie and sophmore season while missing 10+ games due to injury is a good sign that he's going to be pretty good.
I don't remember the last player who scored 40 as a teenaged rookie.
I didn't see Matthews looking out of place in the competitions he's played in with the supposed "to be top 5 centres" - although one was a stupid tournament with stupid gimmick for 2 of its teams.

 

[Laineux]

Somehow, I believe that a player who scored 74 goals in his rookie and sophmore season while missing 10+ games due to injury is a good sign that he's going to be pretty good.
I don't remember the last player who scored 40 as a teenaged rookie.
I didn't see Matthews looking out of place in the competitions he's played in with the supposed "to be top 5 centres" - although one was a stupid tournament with stupid gimmick for 2 of its teams.

The group of players currently in the mix for being top 5 centers include players like Malkin, MacKinnon, Kopitar, Bergeron, Tavares, Matthews, Sequin, Barkov, Scheifele, Kuznetsov, Tavares... and only a couple of those can make the final cut. Center is a deep position. It's a small handful of players that could ever be called much better than top 5 center in the league.

 

[Volica]

That's debatable about Staal. His prime coincided with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Joe Thornton, Henrik Sedin, Datsyuk, etc. Those guys were ahead of Staal. That's already 5 centers who were ahead of Staal.

As for Parise, he was grittier than Marner and probably Marner will not match his goal scoring ability. But I think Marner's got the potential to be a more skilled point producer than Parise was.

I'm just saying, my point was the best player in the league is the best player in the league, and it's always safer to go Generational over anything.
Like, I know we now know the future. But in like 2008 would you have traded Sidney Crosby (21) for Nick Backstrom (21) and Phil Kessel (20).

 

[pcruz]

The group of players currently in the mix for being top 5 centers include players like Malkin, MacKinnon, Kopitar, Bergeron, Tavares, Matthews, Sequin, Barkov, Scheifele, Kuznetsov, Tavares... and only a couple of those can make the final cut. Center is a deep position. It's a small handful of players that could ever be called much better than top 5 center in the league.

That might be true, but what I quoted was talking about Staal in his prime. You're comparing a 3rd year, Entry Level Contract, player to Malkin, Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov......what?, Tavares twice, Kuznetsov....what?

 

[pcruz]

I'm just saying, my point was the best player in the league is the best player in the league, and it's always safer to go Generational over anything.
Like, I know we now know the future. But in like 2008 would you have traded Sidney Crosby (21) for Nick Backstrom (21) and Phil Kessel (20).

No, but I would have taken Kessel and Malkin over Sid any day of the week.

 

[Laineux]

That might be true, but what I quoted was talking about Staal in his prime. You're comparing a 3rd year, Entry Level Contract, player to Malkin, Kopitar, Bergeron, Barkov......what?, Tavares twice, Kuznetsov....what?

Oh I think Matthews will be quite clearly better than Staal through his career. I think he can be a perennial top 5 center in his prime, in the mold of Forsberg, Datsyuk, Malkin, Sakic etc. Just that wording stuck out.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm just saying, my point was the best player in the league is the best player in the league, and it's always safer to go Generational over anything.
Like, I know we now know the future. But in like 2008 would you have traded Sidney Crosby (21) for Nick Backstrom (21) and Phil Kessel (20).

I think the disagreement is with your idea of what kind of player Matthews will become is different than mine. I think he's got the potential to be the 2nd best center after McDavid (among the young crop). The examples you've used, like Staal and Backstrom, were never the second best center after Crosby.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Staal was considered a top 5 centre in his prime. Parise was a +PPG two-way winger until injuries/Minny took their toll on him.

Let's not pretend you're using these comparisons for any other reason than their precipitous declines.

 

[Mrb1p]

So to clarify, we eliminate most of Sharp's data set and cherry pick the peak. What happens when we do that? Well we find out that even his cherry picked peak produces a lower points production pace than Mitch Marner's 19 and 20 year old seasons. When he is just learning the league and spending time on 3rd and 4th lines.

Yes, a lot of players do not do as well as Sharp. Mitch will obliterate him and barring injuries finish his career surprisingly close to Kane. Far closer to Kane than Sharp, which is the point being debated.

Thats just not the likely outcome since Kane has one of the best career all-time, he's a 100% lock for the HHOF, there's just not a lot of people that make it there.

 

[Mrb1p]

ITT : Fans of every other teams: McDavid AINEC.
Fans of the Leafs: TOEWS KANE2.0 YO


....

 

[North Cole]

Pulj is a bust IMO so to me this isn't even really a question

I agree. Oilers were fools to take him instead of Barzal....it'll look really bad this year when svechnikov has a breakout season and you wonder why they took Poolparty instead.

 

[snipes]

Pulj is a bust IMO so to me this isn't even really a question

Lol he’s 20

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

No, but I would have taken Kessel and Malkin over Sid any day of the week.

Yea but Malkin is nearly Crosby's equal. 2 art rosses, multiple 100 point seasons, nearly identical playoff stats. For this comparison to work you would be assuming Matthews to be nearly Mcdavids equal.