New York Islanders: Confirmed with link : Barry Trotz Islanders Head Coach

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The problem with the armchair analysts is they never took into account is the Isles could start outshooting people AND still win.
Oh absolutely. Another concept hard for some people to understand is that a team can both be good and yet overachieve at the same time. And the Isles shot metrics have been steadily improving as the season has gone on, so that's encouraging.
Carolina is another good example here since they are known for throwing everything on net. So, naturally, they are going to probably have the lowest PDO in the league (and they do). But because that's their strategy and PDO doesn't take into account the quality of shots, it is not going to be a good predictor of their success. All PDO is saying that if Carolina had the lowest in the league and it's outside of the normal range, then we expect their PDO to come back up toward the normal range. But if they continue to throw garbage at the net, they won't start winning more.
While I agree with the majority of your post, the current Carolina doesn't really seems to be the Carolina of old. In the previous seasons, their PDO was very negatively impacted by their horrible goaltending. Nowadays, their goaltending is average, but their SH% is woefully low, much lower than in the previous seasons. But I don't see them as a team that throws garbage at the net considering right now they lead the league in scoring chances and high danger scoring chances. I don't watch them, but their shot chart shows they're generating a huge volume of quality chances. Provided their goaltending holds, I'd predict their PDO naturally goes up in the second half of the season.
 
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PK Cronin

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Okay. Indeed, the fact the Islanders do prefer high danger chances is well recorded in the available stats. But PDO is a zero sum stat, so it's quite impossible for every or most teams to inflate their Sh% and SV%. I haven't done an analysis of all his previous teams, though in Washington he also benefited from elite shooters, elite goaltending and elite powerplay. There was a little more than good strategy that contributed to their success.

That's kind of my point and why I was talking about PDO in the first place. The general theme early on from people was that our PDO was too high and we were just lucky, and we'd come back down to earth. My issue with that isn't that the PDO is likely to come down because it's too high, it's that people were predicting that the team would be bad after it fell for the Islanders but not for other teams. A high PDO doesn't mean you're going to be bad.

While the exact approach of teams in the ozone may differ, I've never heard of a coach that wasn't trying to employ a strategy that limits quality shots against. And whatever our strategy is, we've been pretty mediocre at supressing scoring chances. The goalies' individual performances have been a massive part of this team's success.

It doesn't matter what the coaches are trying to, it matters what is actually happening. Doug Weight thought not blocking shots would help the team. He was wrong. Greiss was talking about how this season there are a limited number of options for the opposition every time they have the puck, making it easier for him to read the play and so his save percentage has gone up. It's not just the goalie's individual performance that leads to his rise in SV%.

Great, but there are other teams in the league than Carolina. Now show me how shooting the puck from the corner is the previaling trend in the league. Good luck with that, because it isn't.

Sure, there are other teams, but the GM of Arizona specifically targets players based off their advanced stats. So teams are definitely manipulating or trying to manipulate certain things if they think it will lead to wins.

When a team with elite shooters and elite goaltending like Washington rides high PDO, it's more believeable it's gonna stay that way than when a team with not a lot of talent and two mediocre goalies career wise does the same. Kinda like that I guess.

Who gets to judge whether it's believable? I mean, haven't there been teams with high PDO's where people were talking about how they're going to crash, they make the playoffs and lose, then those same people say "see, I told you they'd crash!"? I know what you're saying about the talent, but I don't think there's an accurate way for people to judge that in something like PDO or Corsi.

Again, you have no evidence and you're only making things up. This is a complex conclusion you're basing purely on your personal feelings and what you want hockey to be like. No, GMs and coaches are not intentionally padding anything at the expense of winning. They're intentionally trying to make their team play better, which is often reflected in Corsi.

Of course they aren't doing something at the expense of winning, they think having the best Corsi will lead to more wins, so they're intentionally trying to be better at that area. How exactly would you like me to prove such a theory? I already provided one example of a team doing it, how many do I need to provide? Our coach ignores Corsi, and I'm sure others do as well, but that doesn't mean there aren't more who don't.

The wisdom is still current. Modern hockey is a lot about throwing the puck into traffic and looking for a rebound/deflection. The majority of high danger chances are generated just like that, even Trotz teams do this.

Trotz isn't telling his players to shoot from the corner. Driving the net, creating rebounds, etc. is definitely part of the game, but the Islanders certainly don't throw anything and everything at the net. They're very selective about when they do or don't.



I'm not really interested in debating whether or not teams are attempting to manipulate those numbers more now than in the past, but my main point is that PDO doesn't accurately predict who will be a bad team like many posters on HF Boards claim. I think both you and 13th both go over a lot of the misconceptions and wrong application of the statistic, and that's why I don't trust it when it's cited as a reason the Islanders will be a bad team by years end.
 
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13th Floor

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Oh absolutely. Another concept hard for some people to understand is that a team can both be good and yet overachieve at the same time. And the Isles shot metrics have been steadily improving as the season has gone on, so that's encouraging.

While I agree with the majority of your post, the current Carolina doesn't really seems to be the Carolina of old. In the previous seasons, their PDO was very negatively impacted by their horrible goaltending. Nowadays, their goaltending is average, but their SH% is woefully low, much lower than in the previous seasons. But I don't see them as a team that throws garbage at the net considering right now they lead the league in scoring chances and high danger scoring chances. I don't watch them, but their shot chart shows they're generating a huge volume of quality chances. Provided their goaltending holds, I'd predict their PDO naturally goes up in the second half of the season.

Good points. I don't know the answer to these, but just throwing out some ideas. Is it possible they are doing both? I've watched only a handful of Hurricanes games, and strictly from memory, there may have been a lot of both. Since the stats you mention above are cumulative volume stats (as opposed to looking at the percentage of shots that are high quality), they could be getting a lot of high danger shots and also throwing crap on net as well, which would result in lower shooting percentages but still racking up a large number of high quality shots. Of course, they could just be snakebitten. In the NHL, it's just hard to get 40-50 high quality shots on net night in and night out. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a lot (more than other teams), but are also getting a lot of low quality shots. In fact, low quality shots could end up producing high quality shots through rebounds and cycling while tiring the defense -- which now means low quality shots could be indirect drivers of high quality shots, and then therefore themselves are higher in quality than originally seemed, complicating all these metrics even more!

As you said, if they have just been snakebitten, then their PDO will go up -- and it very well could. They could just be a low-PDO team, which doesn't mean they will or will not be successful. Trotz has proven that he can have successful teams with low corsi percentages -- one stat is just not the end all be all. For Carolina, I would need to watch more games -- and if you have already done that, then I just have to take your word for it. We are both [correctly] trying to use analytics to give context for what we are seeing and not the other way around.

Bottom line, though, is that we are in agreement. We both know how to use the stat. People like to throw out "regress to the mean" but then conflate that with "regressing". All the main board threads said we would regress because our PDO was so high -- but they were only half light. Our PDO regressed, not our success. The metric itself is self-fulfilling. If we kept getting outshot like crazy, more goals would end up going in, lowering our save percentage (see: last year).
 

periferal

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I'm sure this is all just a coincidence and has nothing to do with new ownership, new GM, and the best hockey coach in the world...



Islanders going for seven wins in a row for first time in 29 years

They face Carolina at Nassau Coliseum on Tuesday and are on a roll, having won nine of their last 10

image.jpg

Islanders head coach Barry Trotz, top center, watches the third period of an NHL hockey game against the Buffalo Sabres, Monday, Dec. 31, 2018, in Buffalo N.Y. Photo Credit: AP/Jeffrey T. Barnes

By Brian HeymanSpecial to NewsdayUpdated January 7, 2019 10:19 PM

Al Arbour was serving in his second stint behind the Islanders’ bench in the 1989-90 season. They were starting to sizzle on the ice around this time, heading for a nine-game winning streak.

It seems like forever ago. Now the Islanders have a chance for their first single-season seven-game winning streak since then — 29 years later. They will face Carolina on Tuesday night at NYCB Live’s Nassau Coliseum.


https://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey/islanders/islanders-barry-trotz-anders-lee-robin-lehner-lou-lamoriello-1.25661719
 
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It doesn't matter what the coaches are trying to, it matters what is actually happening. Doug Weight thought not blocking shots would help the team. He was wrong. Greiss was talking about how this season there are a limited number of options for the opposition every time they have the puck, making it easier for him to read the play and so his save percentage has gone up. It's not just the goalie's individual performance that leads to his rise in SV%.
If Trotz as a coach is single handedly able to turn a mediocre goalie into an elite one just by employing a certain system, he's probably the most impactful coach in the history of sports. Yeah fair enough, it's not 'just' the goalie's individual performance that leads to his rise in SV%, it's 'only' the by far main part of it. The players' inability to significantly impact the save percentage of their goalies is well documented.

Sure, there are other teams, but the GM of Arizona specifically targets players based off their advanced stats.
People love to say that all the time, but I've never actually seen any kind of factual summary of big moves allegedly based on advanced stats that Chayka has actually made. Drafting Hayton over Zadina and trading Duclair aren't one of those for sure.


Who gets to judge whether it's believable? I mean, haven't there been teams with high PDO's where people were talking about how they're going to crash, they make the playoffs and lose, then those same people say "see, I told you they'd crash!"? I know what you're saying about the talent, but I don't think there's an accurate way for people to judge that in something like PDO or Corsi.
Yeah ok, I don't think I've steered this part of the conversation in the right direction. Bottom line, we're obviously in the agreement that PDO is not something that can single handedly determine what a good team is. Ultimately the people decide what is believable and what isn't based on their preconcieved notions of which team is elite. PDO is frequently something they use as a cruch to give themselves some legitimacy.

How exactly would you like me to prove such a theory? I already provided one example of a team doing it, how many do I need to provide?
Why exactly do you believe it if you don't even know how to go about proving it? And I'm sorry, but you're asking me to believe a large number of teams is trying to inflate their corsi because they think that alone leads to wins (even though you think it doesn't) and you've given me two very flimsy examples at best. How many do you need to provide? More! The statement you're making is a significant one and one you or anybody else has no evidence for other than your personal beliefs.

Trotz isn't telling his players to shoot from the corner. Driving the net, creating rebounds, etc. is definitely part of the game, but the Islanders certainly don't throw anything and everything at the net. They're very selective about when they do or don't.
Well as you said earlier, it doesn't matter what the coaches are trying to do, but only what is actually happening. While Trotz' preference for high danger shots is verifiable and the Isles are particular about what they do, they're perhaps less particular than you think. As evidenced in the shot chart, they highly prefer (compared to league average) shooting from the right point (how shocking considering our RDs) and I'm going to take a wild guess and say that red area in front of the net is largely shots off rebounds/deflections (because just getting in there naturally is usually difficult). Again, the preference exists, I agree. Still, I'm not aware of a team (NYI included) which isn't eminently generating chances off throwing pucks on net to look for deflections/rebounds.

NYI




Is it possible they are doing both? I've watched only a handful of Hurricanes games, and strictly from memory, there may have been a lot of both. Since the stats you mention above are cumulative volume stats (as opposed to looking at the percentage of shots that are high quality), they could be getting a lot of high danger shots and also throwing crap on net as well, which would result in lower shooting percentages but still racking up a large number of high quality shots.
Sure, it's easily believable to me they're doing both. I'm no stats analyst and I can't claim that I know Carolina well. Though if their Sh% stayed the way it is now, I think it'd be one of the worst recorded ever. They're not just slightly below the league average of ~8 %. It should go up a bit.
 
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periferal

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It just occurred to me...

Is the reason Trotz doesn't have a goatee anymore because Lou made him shave it...?
 

Richie Daggers Crime

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Again, the preference exists, I agree. Still, I'm not aware of a team (NYI included) which isn't eminently generating chances off throwing pucks on net to look for deflections/rebounds.
Every team does this, you're right. It's basically the uniform method of generating scoring chances in the NHL (which is why the game is so fatiguing to watch for me these days, I think). Could be the point is that the Isles are more judicious about when they do it than other teams who might be less discriminate.
 

Doshell Propivo

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I know it's been discussed many times here but want to point out again that the defensive turn around this team has made under Trotz is unbelievable. I think we all expected them to be more disciplined defensively but the difference between last season and this season is ridiculous. 3.6 GAA on average last year. 2.6 this year. Worst in the league (by a mile) last year and best this year. Wow.

This team would've been a cup contender in 2015 under Trotz.
 

nickel7168

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Especially after the GA last year, you can't give enough credit to Lou for hiring Trotz and 2 new goalie coaches...and the job they have all done in putting the Isles 1 goal allowed away from leading the whole NHL in defense w 117 GA.
I also believe that reinstating the "best 4th line in hockey" who last night beat the best team in hockey, has helped on defense and PK as have the veteran leadership and defensive play of the 3rd line savvy veterans, who have shown a lot of experience and street smarts.
All things considered, great front office and coaching...Trotz is effin' brilliant.
 
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Lame Lambert

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I know it's been discussed many times here but want to point out again that the defensive turn around this team has made under Trotz is unbelievable. I think we all expected them to be more disciplined defensively but the difference between last season and this season is ridiculous. 3.6 GAA on average last year. 2.6 this year. Worst in the league (by a mile) last year and best this year. Wow.

This team would've been a cup contender in 2015 under Trotz.
This is so frustrating.
 

seafoam

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AKA Garth Snow was what you would expect from a backup goalie and Dough Weight was would you would expect from someone with little head coaching experience and success.
 

PK Cronin

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AKA Garth Snow was what you would expect from a backup goalie and Dough Weight was would you would expect from someone with little head coaching experience and success.


I don't expect Barzal, or any other player, to throw the new management under the bus already, but this isn't a good look for the previous regime at all. What were Weight and Snow letting these guys do that Lamoriello and Trotz have had to correct off the ice?
 

13th Floor

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I know it's been discussed many times here but want to point out again that the defensive turn around this team has made under Trotz is unbelievable. I think we all expected them to be more disciplined defensively but the difference between last season and this season is ridiculous. 3.6 GAA on average last year. 2.6 this year. Worst in the league (by a mile) last year and best this year. Wow.

This team would've been a cup contender in 2015 under Trotz.

Well, sure. We would have beaten the Trotz-less Caps. :)
 
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The Winter Soldier

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AKA Garth Snow was what you would expect from a backup goalie and Dough Weight was would you would expect from someone with little head coaching experience and success.


There is a reason why Lou has rules in place such as players have to be clean shaven. The kids will not understand this. Sorry if there are kids that do not. I don't mean to generalize. But there is a reason why Lawyer's wear suits to court. There are reasons why the Army are clean shaven. It's all about getting into habits that lead to professionalism.

I am not surprised, when Lou came in, he set the tone for the organization. Glad Barzal is not only liking these philosophies, but he is living them. Also when Trotz said when players are not willing to pay the price for success, when he said we will weed you out and they won't be here longer. It just reinforced how this organization went from the dark ages to the new ages.
 

Mr Misunderstood

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There is a reason why Lou has rules in place such as players have to be clean shaven. The kids will not understand this. Sorry if there are kids that do not. I don't mean to generalize. But there is a reason why Lawyer's wear suits to court. There are reasons why the Army are clean shaven. It's all about getting into habits that lead to professionalism.

I am not surprised, when Lou came in, he set the tone for the organization. Glad Barzal is not only liking these philosophies, but he is living them. Also when Trotz said when players are not willing to pay the price for success, when he said we will weed you out and they won't be here longer. It just reinforced how this organization went from the dark ages to the new ages.

The hair and number changes speak to me in a few ways:

1. Attention to details.
2. Uniformity.
3. Professionalism.

IMO, there are many walks of life these days that should institute policies such as these. The results speak for themselves.
 

The Winter Soldier

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The hair and number changes speak to me in a few ways:

1. Attention to details.
2. Uniformity.
3. Professionalism.

IMO, there are many walks of life these days that should institute policies such as these. The results speak for themselves.
I agree. It may sound like Lou is so outdated with his rules. Infact I heard this last year. But Policemen have a dress code, and facial hair requirement where I live, my work has a dress code. I am a firm believer it leads to discipline, uniformity, and professionalism. They are habitual, and good habits can lead onto success on the ice.
 
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