Both GM didn't predict the game that will go to more speed and skill. Both were trying to build the team with big players like Boston. Only difference Edm did it at forward with Maroon Lucic Kassian. Canucks did on Defence with Sbisa Pedan and Gudbranson. That might be reason why JB didn't try to get Vantanen in the Kesler deal. He didn't target D with more offensive skill and speed.
News Article: Comparing the Canucks to the Oilers
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Snatcher Demko
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There's definitely been some similarities, but the biggest thing we have in common is meddlesome ownership. Aquilini clearly wanted the quick fix and found a "yes-man" who said he could engineer another contender before the Sedins retired, but predictably it all blew up.
Another smaller one is the Gudbranson and Griffin Reinhart deals. Benning admitted on radio that the Reinhart deal (or was it the Hamonic one, tough to remember) set the market and proceeded to make a terrible trade for a similarly unskilled defender.
The risk here is that Aquilini gets impatient and forces Benning to look for a "win-now" trade rather than taking the patient route.
But there are differences - the Canucks do seem to be evolving, albeit slowly. Their drafting has been better and Benning has the luxury of having two good defenders. He seems to know when he has a pretty good player. You have to give him some credit for hanging onto Markstrom and giving him the chance. Travis Green is a good coach. He hasn't made the same knee-jerk moves to compound his problems that Chiarelli did.
That's not to say that I trust Benning has the GM talent to develop a contender. Our pro scouting just isn't good enough and he's incapable of thinking creatively - which is so essential. We can only hope he's got some good people who are getting through to him and making him better.
Another smaller one is the Gudbranson and Griffin Reinhart deals. Benning admitted on radio that the Reinhart deal (or was it the Hamonic one, tough to remember) set the market and proceeded to make a terrible trade for a similarly unskilled defender.
The risk here is that Aquilini gets impatient and forces Benning to look for a "win-now" trade rather than taking the patient route.
But there are differences - the Canucks do seem to be evolving, albeit slowly. Their drafting has been better and Benning has the luxury of having two good defenders. He seems to know when he has a pretty good player. You have to give him some credit for hanging onto Markstrom and giving him the chance. Travis Green is a good coach. He hasn't made the same knee-jerk moves to compound his problems that Chiarelli did.
That's not to say that I trust Benning has the GM talent to develop a contender. Our pro scouting just isn't good enough and he's incapable of thinking creatively - which is so essential. We can only hope he's got some good people who are getting through to him and making him better.
The User wrote "how about his FA record? Then User POM wrote most of Jb FA were place holders on short term deals. Then other User started talking Sutter, Gudbranson
The conversation is only about Free Agents. Not about player he acquire through trade that he signed afterwards.
Askel
By the way Benning should be fired.
WTF are you going on about. RFA:s are free agents you know that right. They can be let go instead of signing them to stupid longterm deals. If you only count UFA:s there is still a lot of players that were not signed to place holder deals.
Roussel, Beagle, Eriksson, Miller, Gagner.
Good grief that is f***ing awful, like next level awful that dullard JB hasn't yet matched in all his ineptitude.
Misery likes company, and it's hypocritical and trite to mock a team that's been even worse when Vancouver has been a joke for five years, but seriously, having that highlighted and being reminded of that I even begin to feel a little sorry for Edmonton fans who weren't old enough to experience the dynasty team.
I think the difference between Benning and Chia is that I feel like Benning has course corrected, starting most prominently with drafting of EP. Edmonton is stuck in sort of a mushy middle, where 60% of their forwards are of the Lucic/Kassian mold, 20% are compatible with McDavid and 20% and the other 20% are just not good.
On defense, they've spent way too much money on #4 dmen, trying to keep them out of the hands of their rivals (Sekera, Russell) and then doubled down to bleed assets for Manning and Petrovic.
I think the Canucks are in better shape than the Oilers because they haven't pushed their versions of Pujulaarvi and Yamamoto (Dahlen and I guess Juolevi) into the pressure cooker when they are clearly not ready. And also because they haven't paid UFA rates to sign their own players. Virtanen and Baertschi were signed to team friendly extensions, but I worry about Hutton's and Stetcher's next contracts. Not that they don't have upside, but I don't see either of them developing into a #3 dman on a contender.
If we sign Edler to, say a $5m x 3year contract, then re-sign a withering away Tanev to a similar deal, Hutton and Stetcher to deals for about $4m x 4 years, we are very much at risk of being the Oilers. We should try to trade one of Hutton and Stetcher, not because they are not useful pieces to this Canucks team, but they turn into liabilities dollar wise at the time that the Canucks need every dollar they can get for their competitive window.
It becomes increasingly important that the Canucks continue to draft and develop defensemen that can backload Hughes and Juolevi to provide cheap labour. They need to hit on at least one of Woo or Utenen or Rathbone, or continue to find and sign the next Tanev and Stetcher.
With a strong pipeline like this, you can trade away guys who get expensive (on their own merit) and not worry about missing too much.
You guys have always said that the pro scouting has been a weakness of the GMJB era. I think he is self aware enough to know this, and this is why there haven't been that many big NHL trades during the season during his tenure. But going forward he will need to start making these deals, and he will need to win them.
On defense, they've spent way too much money on #4 dmen, trying to keep them out of the hands of their rivals (Sekera, Russell) and then doubled down to bleed assets for Manning and Petrovic.
I think the Canucks are in better shape than the Oilers because they haven't pushed their versions of Pujulaarvi and Yamamoto (Dahlen and I guess Juolevi) into the pressure cooker when they are clearly not ready. And also because they haven't paid UFA rates to sign their own players. Virtanen and Baertschi were signed to team friendly extensions, but I worry about Hutton's and Stetcher's next contracts. Not that they don't have upside, but I don't see either of them developing into a #3 dman on a contender.
If we sign Edler to, say a $5m x 3year contract, then re-sign a withering away Tanev to a similar deal, Hutton and Stetcher to deals for about $4m x 4 years, we are very much at risk of being the Oilers. We should try to trade one of Hutton and Stetcher, not because they are not useful pieces to this Canucks team, but they turn into liabilities dollar wise at the time that the Canucks need every dollar they can get for their competitive window.
It becomes increasingly important that the Canucks continue to draft and develop defensemen that can backload Hughes and Juolevi to provide cheap labour. They need to hit on at least one of Woo or Utenen or Rathbone, or continue to find and sign the next Tanev and Stetcher.
With a strong pipeline like this, you can trade away guys who get expensive (on their own merit) and not worry about missing too much.
You guys have always said that the pro scouting has been a weakness of the GMJB era. I think he is self aware enough to know this, and this is why there haven't been that many big NHL trades during the season during his tenure. But going forward he will need to start making these deals, and he will need to win them.
I believe he was only talking about UFA. That's why he indicated most were place holder deal. He is mostly right.
Just because Miller and Gagner were 3 years. It doesn't mean they were place holder deals. Place Holder deals is a stop gap contract. You signed those guys until someone younger in the system takes over and you predict when the younger player can take over.
Markstrom wasn't ready to take over number 1 goalie until last last season.
Gagner as a today he still the top 12/13 Forward on the team. Most of the younger players are not ready to make the team. The reason why he is not the team because JB/TG want the Bottom 6 harder to play against.
I think they should find a way to convince Edler to waive ntc. Get a late 1st back. With two 1st round picks? Chances are we get at least one elite player back with those picks. Hopefully 2, we used some of the money we are saving on Edler contract and go for FA that is still young enough to be part of the core. Maybe someone like Stone.
Add those two players you have 6 really good players with Petey Hughes Boeser and Horvat and then you don't become Oilers and closer to the Jets.
Add those two players you have 6 really good players with Petey Hughes Boeser and Horvat and then you don't become Oilers and closer to the Jets.
The article was actually pretty complimentary of the Canucks' situation vis a vis the Oilers. At the end of the day, execution and results make all the difference.
Drafting. The article talks about drafting. One of Oilers' biggest failings is that beyond those high picks their drafts were largely a bust. As I mentioned many times before, Benning's record as a Director of Amateur Scouting suggested an ability to deliver at least an NHL player out of every draft and not that he hit on all of his first rounders. What Biech pointed out is that it looks like the Canucks have done better in that department with guys like Gaudette, Demko, Woo, Madden, Lind (his list) etc. For me, both GMs made changes to the scouting staff. Benning, however, took a year to evaluate his staff and promoted Brackett from a part-time scout all the way to Director of Amateur Scouting. I'm not sure that the Oilers hired a scouting director. I think one of the biggest differences is that Benning made adjustments along the way. When people were focused on the whole meat and potatoes thing Benning's drafts focused on hockey IQ, skill, speed, and shot release. The Canucks' scouting staff and philosophy today probably would have seen Ehlers and Nylander drafted ahead of Virtanen in 2014. They probably still would have bypassed Tkachuk due to their preference on "asset value" which probably is another way of saying they prefer players who play a premium position. As much as people hate drafting by position, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, and Dipietro were drafted in part due to the position they played. The Oilers? Their best Dmen are Nurse, Klefbom, and Larssen, Dmen they invested 1st round picks in and Taylor Hall. No goaltenders. That wasn't a focus (the article talked about goaltending)
The article also talks about trades and veterans. That's where the caution is mostly at IMO. Again the article was complimentary of the Canucks for signing veterans like Roussel and Beagle and cutting bait on Del Zotto and Nilsson. There's obviously going to be moves that are made that falls into this department. Pro scouting is an oft-discussed issue. More acquisitions in the way of Eriksson, Del Zotto, and Gagner and the ship is likely to sink.
Drafting. The article talks about drafting. One of Oilers' biggest failings is that beyond those high picks their drafts were largely a bust. As I mentioned many times before, Benning's record as a Director of Amateur Scouting suggested an ability to deliver at least an NHL player out of every draft and not that he hit on all of his first rounders. What Biech pointed out is that it looks like the Canucks have done better in that department with guys like Gaudette, Demko, Woo, Madden, Lind (his list) etc. For me, both GMs made changes to the scouting staff. Benning, however, took a year to evaluate his staff and promoted Brackett from a part-time scout all the way to Director of Amateur Scouting. I'm not sure that the Oilers hired a scouting director. I think one of the biggest differences is that Benning made adjustments along the way. When people were focused on the whole meat and potatoes thing Benning's drafts focused on hockey IQ, skill, speed, and shot release. The Canucks' scouting staff and philosophy today probably would have seen Ehlers and Nylander drafted ahead of Virtanen in 2014. They probably still would have bypassed Tkachuk due to their preference on "asset value" which probably is another way of saying they prefer players who play a premium position. As much as people hate drafting by position, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, and Dipietro were drafted in part due to the position they played. The Oilers? Their best Dmen are Nurse, Klefbom, and Larssen, Dmen they invested 1st round picks in and Taylor Hall. No goaltenders. That wasn't a focus (the article talked about goaltending)
The article also talks about trades and veterans. That's where the caution is mostly at IMO. Again the article was complimentary of the Canucks for signing veterans like Roussel and Beagle and cutting bait on Del Zotto and Nilsson. There's obviously going to be moves that are made that falls into this department. Pro scouting is an oft-discussed issue. More acquisitions in the way of Eriksson, Del Zotto, and Gagner and the ship is likely to sink.
WTG
December 5th
Hughes ain't NHL elite till he proves it in the NHL.
That's still 5 years with just 2 core players and 3 top 10 picks.
Bleach Clean
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I think the key takeaway is that this connection between VAN and EDM is being made at all. That is what is truly damning here. Even if you want to recognize VAN as superior in certain aspects, like drafting and goaltending, there is enough there to draw a parallel.
This comparison has been making the rounds of late in the media. Paterson has talked about it. Going from memory, it's been on SN650 as well. Now Biech drawing up a comparison article... It's all a little too close for comfort.
The hope is that the Canucks are, sometime in the future, the furthest thing from an association with the current Oilers. That's the hope, anyway.
This comparison has been making the rounds of late in the media. Paterson has talked about it. Going from memory, it's been on SN650 as well. Now Biech drawing up a comparison article... It's all a little too close for comfort.
The hope is that the Canucks are, sometime in the future, the furthest thing from an association with the current Oilers. That's the hope, anyway.
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mathonwy
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ChilliBilly
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EP and Boeser - great picks.
Horvat - better than average.
McCann Shinkaruk Gaunce Jensen Schroeder Hodgson White Grabner .... pretty sad looking
Juolevi JV and Hughes .... underwhelming at this time, though Hughes has lots of potential.
Outside the 1st round, barely a pick in over 15 years that's a decent NHLer. Demko, DiPietro and Tryamkin all look not bad.
Woo Madden, Lind Gadjovich, Lockwood may turn out but we have been optimistic in the past. Like Cassels, Subban Mallet etc.
Special finds - Gaudette and Hutton are 5th rounders who are turning out.
Anyhow our 1st round drafting has been underwhelming to say the least. And if we didn't have EP our future would look pretty bleak.
Horvat - better than average.
McCann Shinkaruk Gaunce Jensen Schroeder Hodgson White Grabner .... pretty sad looking
Juolevi JV and Hughes .... underwhelming at this time, though Hughes has lots of potential.
Outside the 1st round, barely a pick in over 15 years that's a decent NHLer. Demko, DiPietro and Tryamkin all look not bad.
Woo Madden, Lind Gadjovich, Lockwood may turn out but we have been optimistic in the past. Like Cassels, Subban Mallet etc.
Special finds - Gaudette and Hutton are 5th rounders who are turning out.
Anyhow our 1st round drafting has been underwhelming to say the least. And if we didn't have EP our future would look pretty bleak.
clunk
Registered User
Both are organisations rife with pro-scouting failures, so they're pretty similar.
Difference between a good GM and a bad GM is a good GM can surround his core players with support to turn them into a contender. (Gillis).
Benning just hasn't proven to be capable of this, at all. He had the right idea with Leivo, but let's see what he does in free agency now. I don't think much has changed.
Difference between a good GM and a bad GM is a good GM can surround his core players with support to turn them into a contender. (Gillis).
Benning just hasn't proven to be capable of this, at all. He had the right idea with Leivo, but let's see what he does in free agency now. I don't think much has changed.
Billy Kvcmu
Registered User
But we do have EP and we drafted him at 5th overall, didn’t even need a lottery pick.
Imagine every team without their 1st line centre, especially the oilers
Pastor Of Muppetz
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If we're not allowed to include Hughes (who, by most experts is considered to be one of the best, if not the best, player not currently playing in the NHL...and dare I say..the 'elite' word) then we should go by 4 years..
In 4 years ,I think its fair to say we have two homerun picks, one Calder runner up,and one probable Calder winner (a franchise player?)..and the books not completely closed on the other two...I'll take it.
and this all done without picking any higher than 5th (unlike the Oilers..how many top 5 picks have they had?)
Pastor Of Muppetz
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Not going to deny that Benning has made some bad signings on players with deals over 2 years (Eriksson in particular),but most of those signings were done in the "rebuild and compete" phase...I've liked his signings this year of Roussel and Beagle
Have these deals hamstrung the Canucks like the Oilers?.
I liked a lot of what you said in your post, but I wanted to key onto this part. I think the front office learned from this selection, and really the McDavid era of hockey is focused on skill and speed. Under that criteria you select Nylander or Ehlers no question. Virtanen luckily still plays a fairly uptempo game, and he is still a work in progress himself. For a league continually treats Tom Wilson like he belongs in the same company as McDavid and Crosby, it's not surprising that Virtanen would have value in the draft. But these are not foundational pieces to build upon. Even if you hit like a truck, you can't win games 0-0.
I think management has done a good job putting the team together basically from the 2017 to now. I don't really disagree with any of the moves they've made, and other than missing on a few UFAs (Schaller, MDZ, Gagner). And given the Canucks cap situation they don't really sting that much. The next real test will be the trade deadline and free agency though. I'd only be willing to go long term on a truly elite free agent (Stone, Karlsson, Panarin). And if we miss, we miss. It's more important to me to keep the books solid for a couple years from now that anything else.
Bleach Clean
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How can people think management is learning when they just signed Beagle to a 3m AAV 4 year contract this past offseason?
Next, does the Juolevi selection show learning from the Virtanen selection? If so, how? Or, are we only looking at Pettersson and Hughes to show this learning (selection bias)?
If you include "missing on a few UFAs" in 2018, then you don't really like Benning's 2017 and onward resume.
Benning signs bad contracts, still has cap space, doesn't sting that much... Ummm, OK? Do we need it to sting before we understand these are bad contracts? Why keep the books solid only starting now? Illogical.
He has failed most every test. Give this guy the boot so he can join Chiarelli, wherever that may be.
Next, does the Juolevi selection show learning from the Virtanen selection? If so, how? Or, are we only looking at Pettersson and Hughes to show this learning (selection bias)?
If you include "missing on a few UFAs" in 2018, then you don't really like Benning's 2017 and onward resume.
Benning signs bad contracts, still has cap space, doesn't sting that much... Ummm, OK? Do we need it to sting before we understand these are bad contracts? Why keep the books solid only starting now? Illogical.
He has failed most every test. Give this guy the boot so he can join Chiarelli, wherever that may be.
xtra
Registered User
And you still believe we are rebuilding from what they said a year ago before signing beagle and rousell
Yes. Which is what terrifies me that Benning is still at the helm. The team has 1 or 2 big moves that are needed. Nothing suggests to me that Benning is capable of those moves. Quite the opposite. The pro-scouting under his watch has been dreadful.
And while I know they are flirting with a wild card spot they are literally doing it on the backs of three players....Horvat, Pettersson and, quite honestly the biggest shoulders right now, Markstrom. Have people not been watching the games? They are getting outplayed quite regularly and being saved by Markstrom. And while a team needs different people to step up at different times of year it should be clear that without a likely unsustainable 5-on-5 SV% since Dec 1 this team would already be sunk. So the questions you have to really ask yourself are these
1) Is Markstrom going to maintain the of an in his prime Carey Price or is he going to regress back down? If you truly feel he is Carey Price in his prime and likely to stay there then sure this team has a shot at something. If you don't you have to ask yourself question 2.
2) Given everything we have seen through the last 3 or 4 years and how the Benning support crew has performed does this team have a chance with even average goaltending? My belief is they do not.
Certainly encourage the players to try hard to win games and squeak in. Coach like it even. But no deadline rentals please. Still keep an eye to the future that needs at least 2 good to very good blueliners and at least one more really good winger. Not to mention getting rid of some of the other dead weight that litters the roster. Move out unneccessarily wasteful salary because you are going to need that room to upgrade and sign the youngsters.
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Horse McHindu
They call me Horse.....
The same pro scouting that targeted Josh Leivo is bottom 5 in the league? Really?
This is just silly.
The Canucks aren't hamstrung because their McDavid and Draisatl are still on their ELC. Everything looked like rainbows and unicorns in Oil Country even after the Hall/Reinhart/Lucic contract, it wasn't until their stars were making the big money did they become hamstrung. So while the Canucks aren't there yet, and they still have two seasons after this with Pettersson on his, but the Oilers should at least be a sign of what could come without the right moves.
