GDT: Columbus Blue Jackets @ New Jersey Devils 3PM MSGSN

[Bleedred]

The fallacy in this argument is that the goalie issue is not and never has been “in relation to this game”.

It has been a season long issue that plagued the team even when the offense had a pulse.

No doubt that the scoring collapse has now also become a major concern.

But still going nowhere even if they fix that if there is no upgrade in net.

We could at least start by playing Schmid, who has played better than Vanecek, though he’s only played in less than half the games and has faced weaker teams like St. Louis and Columbus in the games he’s played well.

Once again, I’m of the most firm belief that Vitek is shot here. It’s over for him. You can’t come back from a playoffs like his last year, when you already haven’t had any playoff success and the other goalie fared well after his removal, and even brought the team back to win the series. The series we would have lost in 4 or 5 if we hadn’t made the change.

I don’t think anyone has any confidence playing in front of him. Definitely not the people that were here last year. He can rebound somewhere else, but he’s finished here.

 

[JimEIV]

- Hoping Nico and Meier contribute and help others score when they get back

- 6, 7 and 71 need to figure their shit out

- maybe Bahl can be swapped with a Zadarov if Fitz can work a good deal

- I like Holtz but maybe trade him for a speedy winger so we get back our fast identity

Yeah I think the solutions are here... I'm not even sure we need trade anyone to right the ship. We first need to get healthy.

 

[racamdim]

We could at least start by playing Schmid, who has played better than Vanecek, though he’s only played in less than half the games and has faced weaker teams like St. Louis and Columbus in the games he’s played well.

Once again, I’m of the most firm belief that Vitek is shot here. It’s over for him. You can’t come back from a playoffs like his last year, when you already haven’t had any playoff success and the other goalie fared well after his removal, and even brought the team back to the series. The series we would have lost in 4 or 5 if we hadn’t made the change.

I don’t think anyone has any confidence playing in front of him. Definitely not the people that were here last year. He can rebound somewhere else, but he’s finished here.

Completely agree about VV. As compared to his career baseline his performance in the first two thirds of last year was a pleasant mirage.

I’m fine with playing AS more.

But he needs to be better than he has performed so far.

And Fitz still needs someone reliable (competence is sufficient) to share the load.

 

[JimEIV]

You are just playing whack a mole if you fix every one of those indisputable issues but don’t improve the goaltending as well.

No you're not ...you fix those issues there won't be a goalie issue....or at least it won't be as prominent.

I don't think our goalie are good enough for the playoffs, but for the regular season it doesn't matter...and we should be more concerned with making the playoffs at this point than making a deep run.

I'm honestly not sure how anyone could watch how the team performed last year and watched how they performed through these first 18 games and come to the conclusion that systems or goaltending is the issue. It really seems absurd to me. The team isn't performing but we expect the goalies to perform when no one else is? That's a weird thought process to me

 

[Bleedred]

No you're not ...you fix those issues there won't be a goalie issue....or at least it won't be as prominent.

I don't think our goalie are good enough for the playoffs, but for the regular season it doesn't matter...and we should be more concerned with making the playoffs at this point than making a deep run.

I'm honestly not sure how anyone could watch how the team performed last year and watched how they performed through these first 18 games and come to the conclusion that systems or goaltending is the issue. It really seems absurd to me. The team isn't performing but we expect the goalies to perform when no one else is? That's a weird thought process to me

I’m pretty sure Vitek needs to go.

You don’t come back from what happened in the playoffs last year, until you move to another team. Unless you’re Brodeur and have already won at least one cup and been to two conference finals already/won multiple playoff rounds. Vitek has barely won a playoff game, let alone multiple rounds in his career.

Vitek can be a fine goalie elsewhere, but he peaked here at the beginning of this calendar year and it’s been all downhill since.

I don’t think Jake Allen or whatever name suggested is better than Vitek, but I’d have (slightly) more confidence in those guys playing behind this team than Vitek ever being worth a damn on this team again.

 

[JimEIV]

I’m pretty sure Vitek needs to go.

You don’t come back from what happened in the playoffs last year, until you move to another team. Unless you’re Brodeur and have already won at least one cup and been to two conference finals already/won multiple playoff rounds. Vitek has barely won a playoff game, let alone multiple rounds in his career.

Vitek can be a fine goalie elsewhere, but he peaked here at the beginning of this calendar year and it’s been all downhill since.

I don’t think Jake Allen or whatever name suggested is better than Vitek, but I’d have (slightly) more confidence in those guys playing behind this team than Vitek ever being worth a damn on this team again.

This sounds like a book I once read ..it was named the Bobby Clarke Philosophy on goaltending. It basically goes ..."Next"

And then make believe that the team isn't full of holes

 

[Maine Fan]

We could at least start by playing Schmid, who has played better than Vanecek, though he’s only played in less than half the games and has faced weaker teams like St. Louis and Columbus in the games he’s played well.

Once again, I’m of the most firm belief that Vitek is shot here. It’s over for him. You can’t come back from a playoffs like his last year, when you already haven’t had any playoff success and the other goalie fared well after his removal, and even brought the team back to win the series. The series we would have lost in 4 or 5 if we hadn’t made the change.

I don’t think anyone has any confidence playing in front of him. Definitely not the people that were here last year. He can rebound somewhere else, but he’s finished here.

but what is the fix? where do the Devils get goalies? Both goals against today the scorer was all alone with the puck NO Devils defense to be found. Agree Schmid can't improve on the bench. Too much pressure on Vitek, a back up goalie, to start every game. If you are going to lose why not start Schmid?

The Devils goalie problem has been with them for years this isn't new. Everyone was happy to get Vitek as a backup goalie with Blackwood. But Blackwood was the Problem, IMO, so what did you really have. You can go back to Brodeur's final year when the goalie problem started for the Devils. Enough said. You have a goalie problem, no fix in sight, so lose games or play tighter defense. Today was zero defense on both goals. This, for me, is a coaching problem.

 

[JimEIV]

We have literally been looking for the Brodeur heir apparent since 1997 with JF Damphousse.

 

[racamdim]

No you're not ...you fix those issues there won't be a goalie issue....or at least it won't be as prominent.

I don't think our goalie are good enough for the playoffs, but for the regular season it doesn't matter...and we should be more concerned with making the playoffs at this point than making a deep run.

I'm honestly not sure how anyone could watch how the team performed last year and watched how they performed through these first 18 games and come to the conclusion that systems or goaltending is the issue. It really seems absurd to me. The team isn't performing but we expect the goalies to perform when no one else is? That's a weird thought process to me

Well I’m not sure how anyone could watch AS and VV last year and think it was at all sensible to expect them to do anything other than what they have - especially since Fitz (for defensible long term reasons) sacrificed critical parts of last season’s blue line in order to keep his preferred F group.

Anyone disputing that either intentionally overlooked, or worse failed to see, that (1) VV was the Hindenburg over the back end of last year and predictably regressed to his overwhelmingly consistent career baseline, and (2) AS’s crashing and burning against CAR made it clear it was much more likely his Rangers performance was simply a modern-day Johan Hedberg hot streak, not the harbinger of a new Patrick Roy (or even a Corey Schneider).

And even if your theory that the current tandem would be sufficient to make the playoffs (very debatable), it is no longer relevant now because of the overall performance of the team including VV and AS has left them in a playoff math/calendar situation that isn’t in their favor.

Finally, unlike VV and AS, the underperforming Devils for the most part (not Smith or Bahl) at least have a track record of better play, and a regression to the mean (i.e., improvement) is at least reasonable to hope for.

Don’t dispute that there are other areas of the team that are disappointing, and could use internal and external improvement.

But thinking that you can right this ship without addressing the black hole in net is simply whistling past the graveyard.

 

[JimEIV]

Well I’m not sure how anyone could watch AS and VV last year and think it was at all sensible to expect them to do anything other than what they have - especially since Fitz (for defensible long term reasons) sacrificed critical parts of last season’s blue line in order to keep his preferred F group.

Anyone disputing that either intentionally overlooked, or worse failed to see, that (1) VV was the Hindenburg over the back end of last year and predictably regressed to his overwhelmingly consistent career baseline, and (2) AS’s crashing and burning against CAR made it clear it was much more likely his Rangers performance was simply a modern-day Johan Hedberg hot streak, not the harbinger of a new Patrick Roy (or even a Corey Schneider).

And even if your theory that the current tandem would be sufficient to make the playoffs (very debatable), it is no longer relevant now because of the overall performance of the team including VV and AS has left them in a playoff math/calendar situation that isn’t in their favor.

Finally, unlike VV and AS, the underperforming Devils for the most part (not Smith or Bahl) at jest have a track record of better play, and a regression to the mean (i.e., improvement) is at least reasonable to hope for.

Don’t dispute that there are other areas of the team that are disappointing, and could use internal and external improvement.

But thinking that you can right this ship without addressing the black hole in net is simply whistling past the graveyard.

I had to read that twice and I'm still not sure what it said?

They both played over their heads last year? Was that point of all those words?

 

[racamdim]

This sounds like a book I once read ..it was named the Bobby Clarke Philosophy on goaltending. It basically goes ..."Next"

And then make believe that the team isn't full of holes

This argument works so long as you deploy your straw man that we are saying that net is the only issue.

No one disputes other holes.

But your suggestion that G doesn’t require fixing too just doesn’t fly IMO.

 

[TF1970]

I’m pretty sure Vitek needs to go.

You don’t come back from what happened in the playoffs last year, until you move to another team. Unless you’re Brodeur and have already won at least one cup and been to two conference finals already/won multiple playoff rounds. Vitek has barely won a playoff game, let alone multiple rounds in his career.

Vitek can be a fine goalie elsewhere, but he peaked here at the beginning of this calendar year and it’s been all downhill since.

I don’t think Jake Allen or whatever name suggested is better than Vitek, but I’d have (slightly) more confidence in those guys playing behind this team than Vitek ever being worth a damn on this team again.

The perfect spot for Vanacek would be in Boston along with Swayman should they move Ullmark after the season to make cap space. Although I am not sure they would want a guy making $3 million in that role.

 

[JimEIV]

This argument works so long as you deploy your straw man that we are saying that net is the only issue.

No one disputes other holes.

But your suggestion that G doesn’t require fixing too just doesn’t fly IMO.

I seriously have no idea what you are saying. Not busting balls ...I just don't get it

 

[Killing Joke]

People acting like the devils suck because of Severson and graves leaving. Like nah, the goalies would still be needing to get checked for skin cancer and sun burn weekly from the goal light regardless of who we have in front of them

 

[racamdim]

I had to read that twice and I'm still not sure what it said?

They both played over their heads last year? Was that point of all those words?

Well, that’s one way to avoid responding. Sorry to overwhelm you with a lot of easy words. I must have picked that up at Harvard.

Let me dumb it down for you:

AS and VV performance this year is not at all an outlier; it is was pretty obvious that last year’s was.

They are now in too much of a hole to ignore the position any longer if they want to salvage the season.

Unlike VV and AS, most of the underperforming F and D actually have performed better over their careers than they are now, so it is much more reqsonable to expect them to improve to a satisfactory level than either G.

Even if you solve all of the other problems, you aren’t going anywhere without better Gs.

You’re welcome; hope that wasn’t to challenging for you to follow.

 

[Maine Fan]

Well I’m not sure how anyone could watch AS and VV last year and think it was at all sensible to expect them to do anything other than what they have - especially since Fitz (for defensible long term reasons) sacrificed critical parts of last season’s blue line in order to keep his preferred F group.

Anyone disputing that either intentionally overlooked, or worse failed to see, that (1) VV was the Hindenburg over the back end of last year and predictably regressed to his overwhelmingly consistent career baseline, and (2) AS’s crashing and burning against CAR made it clear it was much more likely his Rangers performance was simply a modern-day Johan Hedberg hot streak, not the harbinger of a new Patrick Roy (or even a Corey Schneider).

And even if your theory that the current tandem would be sufficient to make the playoffs (very debatable), it is no longer relevant now because of the overall performance of the team including VV and AS has left them in a playoff math/calendar situation that isn’t in their favor.

Finally, unlike VV and AS, the underperforming Devils for the most part (not Smith or Bahl) at least have a track record of better play, and a regression to the mean (i.e., improvement) is at least reasonable to hope for.

Don’t dispute that there are other areas of the team that are disappointing, and could use internal and external improvement.

But thinking that you can right this ship without addressing the black hole in net is simply whistling past the graveyard.

I hope this wasn't directed towards me because I agree with you, to be a strong playoff team both the goalie and defense must be fixed. the biggest problem being goalie. but since there isn't an immediate fix try to fix the defense, weak as it is. The coaching staff pray for more goals than the other team from the offense without defense. It doesn't work that way. I had hope that with defense these goalies could hang on until the trade deadline. They can't without defense or playing only one goalie. Vitek can't handle starter pressure, he never could, he is a backup goalie, last regular season he played better with a team playing better defense and scoring more ahead of him. Two of those pieces are missing now. Then there is Schmid warming the bench problem. enough.

 

[JimEIV]

Well, that’s one way to avoid responding. Sorry to overwhelm you with a lot of easy words. I must have picked that up at Harvard.

Let me dumb it down for you:

AS and VV performance this year is not at all an outlier; it is was pretty obvious that last year’s was.

They are now in too much of a hole to ignore the position any longer if they want to salvage the season.

Unlike VV and AS, most of the underperforming F and D actually have performed better over their careers than they are now, so it is much more reqsonable to expect them to improve to a satisfactory level than either G.

Even if you solve all of the other problems, you aren’t going anywhere without better Gs.

You’re welcome; hope that wasn’t to challenging for you to follow.

Still not making sense...their performance this year is not an outlier as evidence by their strong previous season? You might of missed the prelaw logic course they offered at Harvard I wanted to take that one as a non-matriculating guest but I didnt have the $1600

 

[TF1970]

As I said, didn’t watch todays game, but one thing it does seem is Schmid is much more capable of settling in and not losing it after a goal or two against in the early stages of the game. Not that he saw a crazy amount of rubber or opportunities today from what it appeared (albeit I do know he faced a gaudreau breakaway), but the mental side of the game seems to at least somewhat be there with him, which is nonexistent with Vanacek.

 

[racamdim]

Still not making sense...their performance this year is not an outlier as evidence by their strong previous season? You might of missed the prelaw logic course they offered at Harvard I wanted to take that one as a non-matriculating guest but I didnt have the $1600

No, I've in fact (now twice) said exactly the opposite, and it makes eminent sense.

Their performance this year is not an outlier -- and the G performances last year WERE -- because the former (this year) is consistent with prior performance, while the latter (last year) was not.

Heck, go back and dig out Fitz's quotes when he acquired VV. He all but acknowledged that he was aiming much higher, but that was the best he could do.

 

[racamdim]

I hope this wasn't directed towards me because I agree with you, to be a strong playoff team both the goalie and defense must be fixed. the biggest problem being goalie. but since there isn't an immediate fix try to fix the defense, weak as it is. The coaching staff pray for more goals than the other team from the offense without defense. It doesn't work that way. I had hope that with defense these goalies could hang on until the trade deadline. They can't without defense or playing only one goalie. Vitek can't handle starter pressure, he never could, he is a backup goalie, last regular season he played better with a team playing better defense and scoring more ahead of him. Two of those pieces are missing now. Then there is Schmid warming the bench problem. enough.

Yup. Whether it was reasonable or not to think that they had enough time to correct any G issues a bit later/at the deadline, the overall confluence of circumstances has rendered that not to be the case.

Fitz is out of runway, and worse has even less leverage than he had in the summer.

IMO he has to either make a move soon, or accept that he cannot or will not and be prepared for them to miss the playoffs (not certain, but VERY plausible now).

 

[StevensRocks]

- Hoping Nico and Meier contribute and help others score when they get back

- 6, 7 and 71 need to figure their shit out

- maybe Bahl can be swapped with a Zadarov if Fitz can work a good deal

- I like Holtz but maybe trade him for a speedy winger so we get back our fast identity

Holtz is slowing us down? His game speed has really picked up

 

[TF1970]

Yup. Whether it was reasonable or not to think that they had enough time to correct any G issues a bit later/at the deadline, the overall confluence of circumstances has proven that not to be the case.

Fitz is out of runway, and worse has even less leverage than he had in the summer.

IMO he has to either make a move soon, or accept that he cannot or will not and be prepared for them to miss the playoffs (not certain, but VERY plausible now).

Your last point is spot on about the fate of the season.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Holtz is slowing us down? His game speed has really picked up

Just desperately spitballing. He’s been fine but my point is maybe we need to look at regaining some speedy wingers to push play. He is definitely keeping up but he will never be able play to push play in this league

Edit: again, I like him. And he can be a weapon if used correctly, especially when we have a fully healthy lineup and attached to a play driver

 

[JimEIV]

No, I've in fact (now twice) said exactly the opposite, and it makes eminent sense.

Their performance this year is not an outlier -- and the G performances last year WERE -- because the former (this year) is consistent with prior performance, while the latter (last year) was not.

Heck, go back and dig out Fitz's quotes when he acquired VV. He all but acknowledged that he was the best he could do.

Schmid had no track record before last year unless you are counting his first 6 games in 2021-22 as a baby.

Vitek had a very nice record before coming to NJ. And his SV% last year (.911) was barely different than his career average before coming here(.908)

There is no question that this .886 is an outlier in Vitek"s career. But you somehow believe it was expected?

 

[Bleedred]

This sounds like a book I once read ..it was named the Bobby Clarke Philosophy on goaltending. It basically goes ..."Next"

And then make believe that the team isn't full of holes

I think it’s safe to say they never expected Vanecek to be much other than a 1b to Blackwood’s 1a, if not Blackwood’s backup.

I think if they had their way, Blackwood would have bounced back and Vanecek would have been nothing more than the 1b/backup to him. When they got him he was clearly an insurance policy, but they were hoping and praying Blackwood would bounce back and he did not.