Colton Orr

[Duffman955]

The more reason why these enforcers need to go. The less Orrs, Scotts and McClarens of the world, the less stage fighting and stupidity in the game

Less Orrs mean there are more Cookes

Rather see 2 guys slugging it out than a guy who takes headshots

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Less Orrs mean there are more Cookes

Rather see 2 guys slugging it out than a guy who takes headshots

No it does not

Problem is, NHL suspensions aren't severe enough. If I were head, Cooke would have been out of the game already

 

[rimshot]

Anyone who thinks goons prevent star players from being attacked need a reality check. How many guys go after dastyuk and zetterberg? Detroit hasn't had a goon in ages, seems to work just fine for them. Kessel has also been attacked this season, further proof that a guy like Colton really doesn't have the intimidation factor we'd like to believe it does. I'm for fighting, I believe it should be done in the heat of the moment though, not some premeditated predictable scrap.

The only time I recall Kessel being attacked was by Scott in a game in which Orr was not present. Orr or McClaren have played opposite Scott ever since. I guess we could just sit Kessel when Scott or any other goon plays against us.

 

[Milan90]

No it does not

Problem is, NHL suspensions aren't severe enough. If I were head, Cooke would have been out of the game already

Severity of punishment has no effect on deterrence within the justice system and it has no effect on deterrence within sports.

Certainty of punishment and swiftness of punishment are great deterrents. Immediate punishment (eg. A security guard in the criminal justice system; maybe enforcers in hockey - though this is unproven).

People need to stop spreading the myth that severity of punishment works as a deterrent.

 

[Morbo]

Not having a 4th line they can play has been a problem for the Leafs this year, a much bigger problem than that one game where Scott went after Kessel.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

McLaren and Orr are rotational players

 

[PeterIng]

Orr needs to go. Horrible hockey sense.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Severity of punishment has no effect on deterrence within the justice system and it has no effect on deterrence within sports.

Certainty of punishment and swiftness of punishment are great deterrents. Immediate punishment (eg. A security guard in the criminal justice system; maybe enforcers in hockey - though this is unproven).

People need to stop spreading the myth that severity of punishment works as a deterrent.

I cannot believe you actually suggested that

You need to explain why the justice system and sports are comparable and also why immediate punishment is the answer with facts and not your opinion

 

[Avec Fromage*]

Ideally, the fourth line would be:

Komarov - McClement - D'Amigo

That's a line you could even ice for 10~ minutes.

 

[likeabosski]

In the post-instigator rule NHL, I don't understand how enforcers act as a deterrent anymore. The only thing the opposing team has to do is not fight and Colton Orr/Frazer McLaren's fighting ability becomes a non-factor.

Also Colton Orr was terrible in the Erskine fight. He looks scared out there and doesn't fight with confidence anymore. He got knocked down in that fight. I don't think Colton Orr is as feared as he once was. Frazer McLaren is the better fighter at this point. And this is probably why McLaren has 7 fights in <25 games while Orr only has 6 fights in like 40 games...

It says a lot when 5 fights in 53/54 games is enough to make you an enforcer in today's NHL. Fighting is happening a lot less frequently these days because hockey players are aware of the long-term consequences of concussions now. And with today's athletes being bigger, faster and stronger, the stakes are higher when you get into a fight now. Being a bigger guy may allow you to hit the other guy harder. But it's not going to make your brain more resistant to trauma unless you have a naturally thick skull or something (what they call a "good jaw" in prizefighting). Colton Orr himself might be noticing changes in his cognitive functioning and personality as a result of years of brain trauma. Maybe that's why he fights scared now. NHL players are all adults (their 18th birthday lies in their rookie year) and they can choose whether or not to fight so I have no interest in Gary Bettman playing nanny and saving hockey players from themselves. But I think a lot of guys are deciding to fight less or not fight. Apparently Steve Ott's wife got into his ear about not wanting him to fight. I heard something like that about Tim Gleason's wife as well. lol.

 

[Milan90]

I cannot believe you actually suggested that

You need to explain why the justice system and sports are comparable and also why immediate punishment is the answer with facts and not your opinion

Look at what happens when a player leaves the bench. It's a 100% certain and swift punishment. Players rarely ever leave the bench now unless it's necessary (Goddard leaving to fight Derek Haley who was fighting his goalie, Brent Johnson.)

The comparable is human psychology. Nobody knows what a suspendable hit is, and nobody knows how long they can expect punishment to be for a hit, or whether there will even be punishment down the line. They're not doing a cost:benefit analysis before making a hit when punishment itself is uncertain.

I don't know whether enforcers help with dissuading players from cheap shots but I know I saw the worst two incidents against us, as a Leafs fan, when there were no real enforcers dressed. Could be a coincidence, might not be.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Look at what happens when a player leaves the bench. It's a 100% certain and swift punishment. Players rarely ever leave the bench now unless it's necessary (Goddard leaving to fight Derek Haley who was fighting his goalie, Brent Johnson.)

The comparable is human psychology. Nobody knows what a suspendable hit is, and nobody knows how long they can expect punishment to be for a hit, or whether there will even be punishment down the line. They're not doing a cost:benefit analysis before making a hit when punishment itself is uncertain.

I don't know whether enforcers help with dissuading players from cheap shots but I know I saw the worst two incidents against us, as a Leafs fan, when there were no real enforcers dressed. Could be a coincidence, might not be.

I do agree that the NHL needs to be clearer with suspensions. They cant just blindly come up with a number. Consistency needs to be there

However, having enforcers doesn't prevent cheap shots from happening. Its not my opinion but just not a proven fact

Swifter punishment I agree but also severer punishment is needed. Skilled players will be missed a whole lot more than goons if they get suspended for a long period of time

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

I do agree that the NHL needs to be clearer with suspensions. They cant just blindly come up with a number. Consistency needs to be there

However, having enforcers doesn't prevent cheap shots from happening. Its not my opinion but just not a proven fact

Swifter punishment I agree but also severer punishment is needed. Skilled players will be missed a whole lot more than goons if they get suspended for a long period of time

What stops crime? The criminals knowledge of immediate capture and police presence, or their knowledge that performing a crime will get them 25 years in prison? Most sociologists/criminologists would argue it is by and large police presence and immediate capture.

 

[Semantics]

I get angry just watching him stumble around out there. How someone who has skated almost every day for probably 25 years and does it for a living can be so bad at skating boggles my mind.

 

[Peasy]

I get angry just watching him stumble around out there. How someone who has skated almost every day for probably 25 years and does it for a living can be so bad at skating boggles my mind.

Kids in Peewee can skate better and faster than him...Dude is a dinosaur on skates

 

[paulster2626]

What stops crime? The criminals knowledge of immediate capture and police presence, or their knowledge that performing a crime will get them 25 years in prison? Most sociologists/criminologists would argue it is by and large police presence and immediate capture.

This is not true. At all. Most of those people would argue against that.

Think about it - you have the opportunity to commit many crimes every day, and you know you won't get caught. But you don't - why?

 

[MastuhNinks]

The only time I recall Kessel being attacked was by Scott in a game in which Orr was not present. Orr or McClaren have played opposite Scott ever since. I guess we could just sit Kessel when Scott or any other goon plays against us.

Kessel was also attacked by Kaleta. Having two enforcers paid off the following game when we had Mclaren fight Scott while Orr jumped Kaleta and taught him a lesson.

 

[Milan90]

This is not true. At all. Most of those people would argue against that.

Think about it - you have the opportunity to commit many crimes every day, and you know you won't get caught. But you don't - why?

Being around criminologists daily, I can firmly say that most believe that severity of punishment has no impact on deterrence.

Obviously societal pressures play a role in actual crime, but this really isn't applicable to hockey, where delivering a borderline hit every once in a while comes with the job.

 

[Jeebs]

Less Orrs mean there are more Cookes

Rather see 2 guys slugging it out than a guy who takes headshots

What fight was it that reformed Matt Cooke?

Matt Cooke changed how he plays because he understood that he wouldn't have a job if he kept playing that way. That people keep arguing that 2 guys fighting somehow keeps rats out of the game, even though rats have been in the game as long as enforcers have, defies explanation. It is not supported by a shred of evidence.

Please name one rat that changed how they play because of a fear that some "enforcer" was going to get them. The only way to get rid of rats is to get rid of their pay cheques.

 

[Peasy]

What fight was it that reformed Matt Cooke?

Matt Cooke changed how he plays because he understood that he wouldn't have a job if he kept playing that way. That people keep arguing that 2 guys fighting somehow keeps rats out of the game, even though rats have been in the game as long as enforcers have, defies explanation. It is not supported by a shred of evidence.

Please name one rat that changed how they play because of a fear that some "enforcer" was going to get them. The only way to get rid of rats is to get rid of their pay cheques.

Lol this. Kaleta still pulled stupid **** all the time after Orr jumped him. They're gunna do it anyways, and most times they wont even fight to stand up for it.

 

[ldnk]

The notion that teams don't dress fighters is an outright lie.

It's not just about fighting though. It's dressing guys who can do something on top of fighting. Orr has a career 24 points in 463 games. He is in a stretch of 0 goals in 78 games; 0 points in 62 games. No, he will not put up a lot of points off the 4th line, most don't. No, he will not put up a lot of points in limited minutes, most won't. But his only skill is that he is willing to hit people and drop the gloves.

Pretty much every single player on your list has significantly more points than Orr, or is producing at a pace that will pass him quite easily provided they get to play in the league as long as Orr.

For a guy who can't skate, can't handle the puck, and recently hasn't even been a good fighter, it is baffling how he maintains a roster spot over guys like Bodie who are willing to fight AND chip in the occasional goal. That is what people have a problem with. It isn't about dressing a fighter vs. not dressing someone to fight. That element of policing the game on the ice is a part of hockey tradition and until fighting is banned from the league, no team should rely on their top 6 players to do the fighting (as in Orr in the lineup and it is Lupul dropping the gloves).

 

[Muston Atthews]

Lol this. Kaleta still pulled stupid **** all the time after Orr jumped him. They're gunna do it anyways, and most times they wont even fight to stand up for it.

Not against the Leafs and that's all that matters.

 

[ldnk]

What stops crime? The criminals knowledge of immediate capture and police presence, or their knowledge that performing a crime will get them 25 years in prison? Most sociologists/criminologists would argue it is by and large police presence and immediate capture.

Ok, but there is a big difference between someone committing a crime (say robbing a bank at gunpoint and getting arrested and sentenced to life imprisonment) and taking a run at Joffrey Lupul and getting in a fight and spending 5 minutes in the sin bin.

The comparison between capture/police presence and throwing dangerous hits is the comparison of surveillance cameras/security guards at a bank and TV cameras/referees.

 

[Peasy]

Not against the Leafs and that's all that matters.

Yeah cause hes not even in the league anymore. I think staged fights are the one of the dumbest things in this league, and thats all Orr can do.

 

[likeabosski]

Lol this. Kaleta still pulled stupid **** all the time after Orr jumped him. They're gunna do it anyways, and most times they wont even fight to stand up for it.

Patrick Kaleta is a pest. He was one of the best penalty drawers in the NHL (he is in the AHL right now). He will stir up **** just to goad enforcers into getting a fight instigator penalty. I remember Kaleta drawing an instigator against Colton Orr last season. I think Orr was thrown out of the game and had something like 17+ penalty minutes from that one incident.

Don Cherry has even said that the instigator rule has made it difficult for enforcers to actually enforce. He has been saying this since they introduced the rule (back in 1991 or 1992 or something). Marty McSorely has been very critical of the instigator rule as well and how coaches would deliberately tell players to draw instigator penalties by agitating enforcers. I believe Mark Fraser (or was it Mike Brown) has touched on the subject of drawing instigator penalties as well.