Player Discussion Colin White signed for 6 years x $4.75M

[BondraTime]

Who the heck was excited about the Zack Smith signing other than Zack Smith and Pierre Dorion?

I thought everyone called that as a terrible deal the moment it was announced.

Take a look at the Smith signing thread, complete opposite. People who said it was too much for a grinder who had a career year were laughed at for not understanding hockey.

Was lauded as a huge hometown discount.

Confirmed with Link: - Zack Smith signed to 4 year extension

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I would like nothing more than for his health, skill, and work ethic to come together and outplay the contract. I will be cheering for him as much as anyone (well almost anyone)

Edit - Without trying to argue -

We have seen the Sens take a step back from signing FA. They take a lot of heat for not keeping KT, EK, MD, RD, MS etc.

Kyle Turris is a perfect “I told you so” contract they avoided. I think the Sens have gone Uber conservative about trying to limit contracts that could offer negative value. Personally, I think the EK, KT, and MD contracts will all turn negative before they are over. With limited resources I don’t think this is a bad approach to build a roster. EM will take heat for being cheep (hope he is gone soon) but with an internal budget of ?$70 million we can’t win a cup with $10+/yr of dead value.

They don't need to look far for a bunch of “I told you so” contracts. Their veteran core is hopefully a lesson learned on not wasting your budget on players that can't come close to pulling their weight.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Take a look at the Smith signing thread, complete opposite. People who said it was too much for a grinder who had a career year were laughed at for not understanding hockey.

Was lauded as a huge hometown discount.

Confirmed with Link: - Zack Smith signed to 4 year extension

Well isn't that a heck of a read.

Maybe I was jaded because I was never a fan of his.

 

[Micklebot]

Take a look at the Smith signing thread, complete opposite. People who said it was too much for a grinder who had a career year were laughed at for not understanding hockey.

Was lauded as a huge hometown discount.

Confirmed with Link: - Zack Smith signed to 4 year extension

Well... At least i was not alone in being wrong on that one.

Smith was playing great at the time but Stone has that effect sometimes.

 

[BondraTime]

Well... At least i was not alone in being wrong on that one.

Smith was playing great at the time but Stone has that effect sometimes.

I thought he would get that, as a UFA his play earned him that kind of contract. I didn’t think it was smart to spend 3.5 on a guy I considered a replacement level guy who had a career year at 28 playing with Stone. Don’t pay that type of money, as a cash strapped team, for guys who are easily replaced through UFA. I remember posting multiple times that Smiths 25 goals was not repeatable, or even close to what he brings.

His career high, back all the way to midget and through his junior career, was 22 goals in Junior, and 24 in the AHL. No other 20 goal seasons. Add to that he had a Cy Young stat line, that is a pretty big red flag in terms of offence and creating offense.

I wanted to walk from him and bank the savings initially, and still do/did, though he was playing great prior to, and immediately after the signing.

That’s a 28/29 year old career grinder who had a career year (of 36 points...) and banked in on a UFA deal in which is entirely based on his prior season, which he was almost assured to fall short on. That has absolutely, ABSOLUTELY, no comparison or relevance to a 22 year old, 1st round pick who has produced offence everywhere he has played, and signed a mid level, projection based contract off his ELC.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Who the heck was excited about the Zack Smith signing other than Zack Smith and Pierre Dorion?

I thought everyone called that as a terrible deal the moment it was announced.

That was literally the best time for Smith to have his contract up. That would never happen again...it was in the stars.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Can't have a NTC or an NMC as a RFA.

REally? An RFA can’t sign a contract with a NMC or NTC? I had no idea. I guess you learn something new everyday.

 

[Peptic Balcers]

REally? An RFA can’t sign a contract with a NMC or NTC? I had no idea. I guess you learn something new everyday.

The last year of his contract is a UFA year, I could be wrong but there could have been a NTC on year 6

 

[Sweatred]

I thought he would get that, as a UFA his play earned him that kind of contract. I didn’t think it was smart to spend 3.5 on a guy I considered a replacement level guy who had a career year at 28 playing with Stone. Don’t pay that type of money, as a cash strapped team, for guys who are easily replaced through UFA. I remember posting multiple times that Smiths 25 goals was not repeatable, or even close to what he brings.

His career high, back all the way to midget and through his junior career, was 22 goals in Junior, and 24 in the AHL. No other 20 goal seasons. Add to that he had a Cy Young stat line, that is a pretty big red flag in terms of offence and creating offense.

I wanted to walk from him and bank the savings initially, and still do/did, though he was playing great prior to, and immediately after the signing.

That’s a 28/29 year old career grinder who had a career year (of 36 points...) and banked in on a UFA deal in which is entirely based on his prior season, which he was almost assured to fall short on. That has absolutely, ABSOLUTELY, no comparison or relevance to a 22 year old, 1st round pick who has produced offence everywhere he has played, and signed a mid level, projection based contract off his ELC.

White has “produced offence ” everywhere he has played in the same context that all players produce offence when they play.

He has had a point a game once in his career (5 years ago at BU).

He had 27 points in 43 games in the AHL and the 14G/41pts in the NHL.

I don’t see any historical offence to suggest he will break out beyond 20/50. Still makes him a good last first round pick. He had a nice U20 a while back but those numbers can be cluttered with older players vs weaker countries.

Colin White (b.1997) Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[BondraTime]

White has “produced offence ” everywhere he has played in the same context that all players produce offence when they play.

He has had a point a game once in his career (5 years ago at BU).

He had 27 points in 43 games in the AHL and the 14G/41pts in the NHL.

I don’t see any historical offence to suggest he will break out beyond 20/50. Still makes him a good last first round pick. He had a nice U20 a while back but those numbers can be cluttered with older players vs weaker countries.

Colin White (b.1997) Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

His tournament stats, where he's been the same age or younger than his counterparts, he's produced in every single tournament outside of the World Championships, and his 18 and 19 year old NCAA seasons, again where he was one of the youngest in the NCAA, were both fantastic. He just turned 22, he hadn't even played a single game in the NCAA less than 4 years ago...

Not to mention he was over a point per game with the USNTDP U17, set a 20+ year tournament record for points with 18 in 6 games at the World U-17's, and was ppg with the NTDP U18 team (In a year in which he had and played through mono for 3 months, over a ppg in the NCAA as an 18 year old which is incredible (Turris couldn't do that), and just under ppg at 19, again a very good season.

A 20g 30a forward is getting 6 plus million these days.

Had he been in the CHL we'd have been looking at 3 seasons of 70-100 point, 1.3-1.8 ppg seasons.

I know your side,it's been all over the site, more than fair opinion. We aren't going to find any common ground on the contract or state of contracts in the league so I'm going to leave it be.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That was literally the best time for Smith to have his contract up. That would never happen again...it was in the stars.

Yup. Classic case of a contract year over achievement in Smith's case.

 

[Sweatred]

Yup. Classic case of a contract year over achievement in Smith's case.

All I remember from that year is Smith firing lasers over goalies shoulders from just inside the blue line. Stone aside, his wrist shot was legit that season.

 

[Samsquanch]

White has “produced offence ” everywhere he has played in the same context that all players produce offence when they play.

He has had a point a game once in his career (5 years ago at BU).

He had 27 points in 43 games in the AHL and the 14G/41pts in the NHL.

I don’t see any historical offence to suggest he will break out beyond 20/50. Still makes him a good last first round pick. He had a nice U20 a while back but those numbers can be cluttered with older players vs weaker countries.

Colin White (b.1997) Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

It wasnt 5 years ago, what are you talking about lol?

How old do you think White is anyways? Or did you think that he was 16 or 17yrs old when he went to Boston College as a freshman? Whatever you choose to believe, 43pts/37gp with a a strong two-way game is a fairly elite stat line. especially for a 16 year old in the NCAA lol .

For context Alex Tuch is a year older than White and scored 34pts/40gp on the same team that year. Hes seems to be doing just fine offensively now.

Or how about his two great performances at the WJC where he went over a PPG at both tournaments against the best junior players in the world? I know it was way back then in the 2016's & 17's - but surely you remember that far back?? If you cant then trust me, he looked good.

If you look at the stat line on every team that hes been on, he has ALWAYS been among the leaders in points, despite being the two way guy that he is.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

All I remember from that year is Smith firing lasers over goalies shoulders from just inside the blue line. Stone aside, his wrist shot was legit that season.

He had a good year, I don't mean to take that away from him. Just should have walked away based on the rest of his resume and being under such strict budget constraints. Similar to Condon's deal and the Duchene trade, you just have to make the tough decision and move on to something else before you end up giving up too much.

My argument was similar to yours against White in that I saw him as a role player and wanted the money going to non replacement level guys. You can replace a Smith for a million if you have to and not lose nearly as much as if you try the same with guys like Stone, Duchene and Karlsson. You don't win without stars, so you have to figure out how to fit them in even if under a low budget and that means casting aside a guy like Smith after one good season out of a career that says otherwise.

 

[Micklebot]

It wasnt 5 years ago, what are you talking about lol?

How old do you think White is anyways? Or did you think that he was 16 or 17yrs old when he went to Boston College as a freshman? Whatever you choose to believe, 43pts/37gp with a a strong two-way game is a fairly elite stat line. especially for a 16 year old lol.

For context Alex Tuch is a year older than White and scored 34pts/40gp on the same team that year. Hes seems to be doing just fine offensively now.

Or how about his two great performances at the WJC where he went over a PPG at both tournaments against the best junior players in the world? I know it was way back then in the 2016's & 17's - but surely you remember that far back?? If you cant then trust me, he looked good.

I think injuries the next two years impacted his ability to put up the numbers that would have allowed people to more easily recognize his offensive pedigree. He's never going to be an offensive wizard, but he supports the play really well and makes smart decisions all over the ice. He lacks Turris' shot, but he does a lot of things very well particularly in the NZ. I like the way he uses his linemates, as well as how his disrupts entries by the opposition.

 

[Sweatred]

I think injuries the next two years impacted his ability to put up the numbers that would have allowed people to more easily recognize his offensive pedigree. He's never going to be an offensive wizard, but he supports the play really well and makes smart decisions all over the ice. He lacks Turris' shot, but he does a lot of things very well particularly in the NZ. I like the way he uses his linemates, as well as how his disrupts entries by the opposition.

I 100% agree with this eval on White.

 

[bert]

White has “produced offence ” everywhere he has played in the same context that all players produce offence when they play.

He has had a point a game once in his career (5 years ago at BU).

He had 27 points in 43 games in the AHL and the 14G/41pts in the NHL.

I don’t see any historical offence to suggest he will break out beyond 20/50. Still makes him a good last first round pick. He had a nice U20 a while back but those numbers can be cluttered with older players vs weaker countries.

Colin White (b.1997) Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

So you only started looking at his stats once he started playing pro? Didnt look at any of his other production based on your assesment. Really having a tough time in this thread eh.

I mean you still havent answered why you said with absolutely certainty that he was only signing a one year deal for 2 million dollars.

I think injuries the next two years impacted his ability to put up the numbers that would have allowed people to more easily recognize his offensive pedigree. He's never going to be an offensive wizard, but he supports the play really well and makes smart decisions all over the ice. He lacks Turris' shot, but he does a lot of things very well particularly in the NZ. I like the way he uses his linemates, as well as how his disrupts entries by the opposition.

He also has parts of his game that he is way better than Turris offensively. His top end speed and strength is way better, he is also really good down low behind the goal lines a place where Turris was dominated and he is good at tipping in pucks and winning battles for rebounds. They arent similar stylistically but overall impact could be very comparable. He is a prick to play against, and AMAZING in the faceoff dot for a player his age. Put it all together and thats the type of player you win with.

 

[Micklebot]

He also has parts of his game that he is way better than Turris offensively. His top end speed and strength is way better, he is also really good down low behind the goal lines a place where Turris was dominated and he is good at tipping in pucks and winning battles for rebounds. They arent similar stylistically but overall impact could be very comparable. He is a prick to play against, and AMAZING in the faceoff dot for a player his age. Put it all together and thats the type of player you win with.

He's also a year younger than Turris was when they each had their breakout seasons and signed a contract with Ottawa.

I agree with you that stylistically he isn't similar but impact wise they could be very similar. My only concern with White is he's been a bit injury prone, not sure if that's the result of his style or just bad luck...

Physically though, he's worlds more athletic than Turris. He's Uber competitve, and his two-way game has been far more well refined from a younger age and only continues to mature (that's not to say Turris didn't develop into a fine two-way center himself).

I've been pretty high on White for a while now, so I'm thrilled with this deal, and maybe I've got some bias leading me to being more optimistic with his development, but I really love this deal.

 

[BonkTastic]

I don’t see any historical offence to suggest he will break out beyond 20/50.

You don't think a 20g/50pt defensive center who can play both the PK (1st unit) and PP (2nd unit) is worth $4.75mil in today's market?

 

[Sweatred]

No - I looked his college years too. 2015 was his only season above a point a game.

That being said I agree with Micklebot’s assessment.

So you only started looking at his stats once he started playing pro? Didnt look at any of his other production based on your assesment. Really having a tough time in this thread eh.

I mean you still havent answered why you said with absolutely certainty that he was only signing a one year deal for 2 million dollars.



He also has parts of his game that he is way better than Turris offensively. His top end speed and strength is way better, he is also really good down low behind the goal lines a place where Turris was dominated and he is good at tipping in pucks and winning battles for rebounds. They arent similar stylistically but overall impact could be very comparable. He is a prick to play against, and AMAZING in the faceoff dot for a player his age. Put it all together and thats the type of player you win with.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You don't think a 20g/50pt defensive center who can play both the PK (1st unit) and PP (2nd unit) is worth $4.75mil in today's market?

Seems like that's more like 5-6.5 mil for a center with those numbers nowadays.

 

[BondraTime]

No - I looked his college years too. 2015 was his only season above a point a game.

That being said I agree with Micklebot’s assessment.

You aren’t even counting 65% of Whites 2013-15 seasons, you are using hockeydb, which omits 101 NTDP games in which he scored 118 points.

USNTDP U17 - 64 points in 47 games

USNTDP U18 -54 points in 54 games (playing through mono)

18 points in 6 games at the World U17, setting a 20+ year tournament record.

9 points in 7 games at World U18.

7 points in 7 games at World Juniors U20 as an 18 year old

8 points in 7 games at World Juniors U20 as a 19 year old.

Then went on to score 76 points in 72 NCAA games as an 18-19 year old, before going pro.

He’s been scoring at a ppg every season, everywhere, outside of the 20 game stints in the USHL as a 16/17 year old, and as a pro.

 

[swiftwin]

Who the heck was excited about the Zack Smith signing other than Zack Smith and Pierre Dorion?

I thought everyone called that as a terrible deal the moment it was announced.

Nope, this is typical hfsens revisionism.

 

[Samsquanch]

You aren’t even counting 65% of Whites 2013-15 seasons, you are using hockeydb, which omits 101 NTDP games in which he scored 118 points.

USNTDP U17 - 64 points in 47 games

USNTDP U18 -54 points in 54 games (playing through mono)

18 points in 6 games at the World U17, setting a 20+ year tournament record.

9 points in 7 games at World U18.

7 points in 7 games at World Juniors U20 as an 18 year old

8 points in 7 games at World Juniors U20 as a 19 year old.

Then went on to score 76 points in 72 NCAA games as an 18-19 year old, before going pro.

He’s been scoring at a ppg every season, everywhere, outside of the 20 game stints in the USHL as a 16/17 year old, and as a pro.

Well gee whiz will you look at that, it looks like Colin White can score after all.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Nope, this is typical hfsens revisionism.

Well, that was more my own assumption without doing any research that others called it, since it seemed plain as day to me at the time that it was a classic case of being overpaid based on an outlier season, but ya that old thread does have most as happy with the deal.

Either way, he never lived up to the contract, so it's probably fair to criticize the decision to sign him.