Player Discussion Colin White signed for 6 years x $4.75M

[Xspyrit]

You answered your own question in your first sentence ... I’m not sure why you even bothered to spew on... not that there is any doubt but who else were you referencing about not understand what a “Y2 jink” is ...

You won’t get it ... but reading people spew on about how good/elite white is is frustrating. Even you are justifying his 27 point season as acceptable. I appreciate your medical advice... You just wrote 1000 words to tell me I’m crazy because it bothers you to read anything negative about CW.. the other options you can consider vs defending him are a) ignore b) open your eyes.

I’m sure you don’t rush to defend a Boro Cop or PD, or Melynk but critiquing your fanboy stings a bit.

Read the post again. I WAS NOT referencing to anybody in particular, I was wondering if it was possible that some people never heard of it after following the NHL for years. I repeat : if the hat fits, wear it but you are not the only person criticizing Colin White right now

By the way, you can do it as much as you want, I don't really care, he's not even a player I like particularly. But I'm a defender of justice and common sense though and in your case, it's not criticism, it's pure obsession, everyone knows it now. You dug that hole alone. I have seen other people telling you to stop but you kept digging

And no I DID NOT say that 27 pts was "acceptable", it's 20 pts away from his 47 pts pace last year but if he could improve it a bit before the end of the season, then yes it could become acceptable. Not sure why you stick to that little point but avoid the argument. Did you just do that on purpose (intellectual dishonesty) or it's just going over your head?

Anyway, there is at least 15 players in the organization I would take before Colin White. If you think I'm the fanboy type, then you understand things even less than I thought

This board gets so ridiculous sometimes that I even had to defend Colin Greening, who was probably the player I liked the least back then. It also started with the fact that he was overpaid at 2.65 per. Damn that small town mind mentality can be annoying.

 

[Micklebot]

How many points do you think ~170 min of PP time is worth with MD ? MD is effective at zone entries, protecting the puck, drawing coverage,passing and scoring. Even if White had 2-4 pts added from this time with MD it puts him on his +10 pts pace with combined MD/MS with the other 6+ coming from the MS benefit.

First, you seem to have miss-read my post, 170 mins was all their time together, not their PP time together. Much of that time, about 62 mins, was on the PP of which 61 mins was with both Duchene and Stone, but none of his PP pts were the result of a goal by, or assisted by Duchene and only 2 of his PP pts where while Duchene was on the ice (Stone was on the ice for 4), which means that in the 51 PP mins he had away from both of them he actually produced better with 4 PP pts in less time.

At ES, He had the same number of pts in 109 mins with Duchene as he did in 71 mins with Brian Gibbons. 1 less ES pt with Boedker in 105 mins. Was he carried by Gibbons and Boedker too?

Maybe instead of digging in on your assumption that he was carried by a good player that he barely played with, you could adjust your stance to align with the facts. They simply did not play with one another enough to make the claim that Duchene carried White, and the underlying numbers suggest that their time together wasn't particularly positive when stone wasn't involved, with White seeing better ES xGF/60, SCF/60 and HDCF/60 away from Duchene even when you also exclude any time with Stone while away from Duchene.

 

[Sweatred]

First, you seem to have miss-read my post, 170 mins was all their time together, not their PP time together. Much of that time, about 62 mins, was on the PP of which 61 mins was with both Duchene and Stone, but none of his PP pts were the result of a goal by, or assisted by Duchene and only 2 of his PP pts where while Duchene was on the ice (Stone was on the ice for 4), which means that in the 51 PP mins he had away from both of them he actually produced better with 4 PP pts in less time.

At ES, He had the same number of pts in 109 mins with Duchene as he did in 71 mins with Brian Gibbons. 1 less ES pt with Boedker in 105 mins. Was he carried by Gibbons and Boedker too?

Maybe instead of digging in on your assumption that he was carried by a good player that he barely played with, you could adjust your stance to align with the facts. They simply did not play with one another enough to make the claim that Duchene carried White, and the underlying numbers suggest that their time together wasn't particularly positive when stone wasn't involved, with White seeing better ES xGF/60, SCF/60 and HDCF/60 away from Duchene even when you also exclude any time with Stone while away from Duchene.

Slow down ... I didn’t say he played 170 min ... I said he played ~170 min ... based on the description you gave me. Second of all I claim he was carried by MS/MD.... what are you saying ? He didn’t benefit from MS/MD ? I never implied a percentage of time and it is irrelevant if he played the same amount of time with Gibbons..... you guys are soooooo eager to defend him. Don’t forget I like the prospect I just don’t feel he is being handled well. I’m fine if you love him and value his skill set. I just disagree with you which is fine. You might be right ... he might be great/elite.

 

[Sweatred]

Read the post again. I WAS NOT referencing to anybody in particular, I was wondering if it was possible that some people never heard of it after following the NHL for years. I repeat : if the hat fits, wear it but you are not the only person criticizing Colin White right now

By the way, you can do it as much as you want, I don't really care, he's not even a player I like particularly. But I'm a defender of justice and common sense though and in your case, it's not criticism, it's pure obsession, everyone knows it now. You dug that hole alone. I have seen other people telling you to stop but you kept digging

And no I DID NOT say that 27 pts was "acceptable", it's 20 pts away from his 47 pts pace last year but if he could improve it a bit before the end of the season, then yes it could become acceptable. Not sure why you stick to that little point but avoid the argument. Did you just do that on purpose (intellectual dishonesty) or it's just going over your head?

Anyway, there is at least 15 players in the organization I would take before Colin White. If you think I'm the fanboy type, then you understand things even less than I thought

This board gets so ridiculous sometimes that I even had to defend Colin Greening, who was probably the player I liked the least back then. It also started with the fact that he was overpaid at 2.65 per. Damn that small town mind mentality can be annoying.

Seriously, you did it again ... you said you didn’t say his season could be acceptable than you quoted where you said it could be acceptable.

I’d be careful with making comprehension accusations. Just move along.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Seriously, you did it again ... you said you didn’t say his season could be acceptable than you quoted where you said it could be acceptable.

I’d be careful with making comprehension accusations. Just move along.

Lmao you're unreal dude.

If White scores 80 points in the remaining games this season, would that be an acceptable season? If you answered yes, you just revealed that no, you absolutely did not understand their post. If you answered no, well, that also reveals something.

 

[Sweatred]

Lmao you're unreal dude.

If White scores 80 points in the remaining games this season, would that be an acceptable season? If you answered yes, you just revealed that no, you absolutely did not understand their post. If you answered no, well, that also reveals something.

You don’t offer much. Your question isn’t phrased well and you’ve assumed a binary answer.

There have been some very good discussions about why White’s contract is manageable.... you seem to have chosen the path of passive insult.

Again, I am okay if you like the player. I do too. I just don’t like his development or roll in the org. You don’t need to agree with that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Count me in for an off the island vote

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

You don’t offer much. There have been some very good discussions about why White’s contract is manageable.... you seem to have chosen the path of passive insult.

Again, I am okay if you like the player. I do too. I just don’t like his development or roll in the org.

Dude... you aren't addressing anyones arguments in good faith. The poster you responded to said White could still salvage his season. You then blatantly twisted their phrasing to mean something clearly different; either that, or you blatantly misunderstood it. All while calling out their reading comprehension. Now who is the one avoiding discussion in favour of passive insults, again?

You are either intellectually dishonest, or just incapable of understanding what people are very clearly trying to get across in their arguments. Nothing passive here.

 

[Sweatred]

Dude... you aren't addressing anyones arguments in good faith. The poster you responded to said White could still salvage his season. You then blatantly twisted their phrasing to mean something clearly different; either that, or you blatantly misunderstood it. All while calling out their reading comprehension. Now who is the one avoiding discussion in favour of passive insults, again?

You are either intellectually dishonest, or just incapable of understanding what people are very clearly trying to get across in their arguments. Nothing passive here.

Why don’t you quote the proper conversation you feel I have “twisted”.

If you mean the 27 pts thing as an OK season??? I just disagree that that would represent a good season. It isn’t worth arguing in my mind, he has had a terrible season regardless if he gets 20 or 30 pts.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Why don’t you quote the proper conversation you feel I have “twisted”.

If you mean the 27 pts thing as an OK season??? I just disagree that that would represent a good season. It isn’t worth arguing in my mind, he has had a terrible season regardless if he gets 20 or 30 pts.

Lol oh my god. I thought it was intellectual dishonesty. Now, I'm not so sure.

And no I DID NOT say that 27 pts was "acceptable", it's 20 pts away from his 47 pts pace last year but if he could improve it a bit before the end of the season, then yes it could become acceptable.

 

[Sweatred]

Lol oh my god. I thought it was intellectual dishonesty. Now, I'm not so sure.

Please... I’m not splitting hairs between someone’s version of acceptable vs becoming acceptable having improved “a bit”.

Again, asked and answered... there is no evaluation in my mind that has CW’s season become acceptable if he improves a bit.

 

[Micklebot]

Slow down ... I didn’t say he played 170 min ... I said he played ~170 min ... based on the description you gave me. Second of all I claim he was carried by MS/MD.... what are you saying ? He didn’t benefit from MS/MD ? I never implied a percentage of time and it is irrelevant if he played the same amount of time with Gibbons..... you guys are soooooo eager to defend him. Don’t forget I like the prospect I just don’t feel he is being handled well. I’m fine if you love him and value his skill set. I just disagree with you which is fine. You might be right ... he might be great/elite.

I'm not even defending him, what I did was clarify that Duchene wasn't the one carrying him. I then provided evidence to support that fact. You seem to keep wanting to say he was carried by Duchene, I'm not sure why that is, it doesn't take away from your claim that he was carried by linemates (Stone in this case) to admit that he didn't actually play much with Duchene, and the time he did had little to no effect on his production or play. He produced at a similar rate with Duclair after the trades too. There just isn't any evidence that Duchene specifically was carrying White, in fact, there is evidence to suggest their time together was not effective.

I mean, if this is a hill you want to die on, have at it, but imo it weakens the credibility of your position, while acknowledging it was just Stone doesn't impact the validity of your overall argument. I agree that Stone had a big impact on his season, the overall production and the underlying numbers both align. Duchene though, I'm left unconvinced. If feels very much like you just took the correlation of two departed stars with his diminished production and assumed a causation.

 

[Sweatred]

I'm not even defending him, what I did was clarify that Duchene wasn't the one carrying him. I then provided evidence to support that fact. You seem to keep wanting to say he was carried by Duchene, I'm not sure why that is, it doesn't take away from your claim that he was carried by linemates (Stone in this case) to admit that he didn't actually play much with Duchene, and the time he did had little to no effect on his production or play. He produced at a similar rate with Duclair after the trades too. There just isn't any evidence that Duchene specifically was carrying White, in fact, there is evidence to suggest their time together was not effective.

I mean, if this is a hill you want to die on, have at it, but imo it weakens the credibility of your position, while acknowledging it was just Stone doesn't impact the validity of your overall argument. I agree that Stone had a big impact on his season, the overall production and the underlying numbers both align. Duchene though, I'm left unconvinced. If feels very much like you just took the correlation of two departed stars with his diminished production and assumed a causation.

Please - I don’t care if you think MD had zero impact on CW’s season. I think CW benefited from all skill around him including MD/MS but also RD etc. He also benefited from TC and BT but they are here this year.

if you want to find a stat that says CW never had a point with MD on the ice I will edit my post and apologize.

 

[Xspyrit]

Dude... you aren't addressing anyones arguments in good faith. The poster you responded to said White could still salvage his season. You then blatantly twisted their phrasing to mean something clearly different; either that, or you blatantly misunderstood it. All while calling out their reading comprehension. Now who is the one avoiding discussion in favour of passive insults, again?

You are either intellectually dishonest, or just incapable of understanding what people are very clearly trying to get across in their arguments. Nothing passive here.

Well, hard to add after that

Seriously, you did it again ... you said you didn’t say his season could be acceptable than you quoted where you said it could be acceptable.

I’d be careful with making comprehension accusations. Just move along.

What SEOD said. Seriously you are good at dumbfounding people. Like him I'm not really sure of what is going on in your head right now, probably too much White space

Yes, mic drop.

 

[Xspyrit]

Why don’t you quote the proper conversation you feel I have “twisted”.

If you mean the 27 pts thing as an OK season??? I just disagree that that would represent a good season. It isn’t worth arguing in my mind, he has had a terrible season regardless if he gets 20 or 30 pts.

This is the paragraph where you took the "27 pts is acceptable" :

Colin White is sure not having a great season but he is still on pace (per 82 GP) for 27 points (which he might improve before the end of the season) despite all the established stars/vets gone (add other excuses/reasons if you want) since he started on the team in 2017-18 (Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Hoffman, Brassard, Phaneuf, etc). OF COURSE, producing numbers in the current context really won't be easy for young players, the team traded a whole first line and one of the best offensive D-man of this generation... Connor Brown and JG Pageau (excellent players but not clear top-6 forwards) are the most used forwards... Seriously, what do we expect?

How many people out of 100 000 would understand 27 pts is acceptable? Probably not many, congrats you're different

 

[Micklebot]

Please - I don’t care if you think MD had zero impact on CW’s season. I think CW benefited from all skill around him including MD/MS but also RD etc. He also benefited from TC and BT but they are here this year.

if you want to find a stat that says CW never had a point with MD on the ice I will edit my post and apologize.

What I'm looking for is any credible evidence that he was carried by Duchene. So far, I've seen none. I've done all the digging, and you've deflected. You made the claim, why aren't you backing it up? There must be something for you to be so sure that not only did it help, but he was carried by Duchene.

All strengths
6pts with Duchen on the ice in 172 mins, 2.09/60
35 w/o Duchene in 978 mins, 2.14/60

ES
4 pts with Duchene in 109 mins, 2.2/60
31 pts w/o Duchene in 874 min, 2.13/60

PP
2 pts with Duchene in 62 mins 1.94/60
6 pts w/o Duchene in 88 mins 4.09/60

None of this suggests he was carried by Duchene.

 

[Sweatred]

What I'm looking for is any credible evidence that he was carried by Duchene. So far, I've seen none. I've done all the digging, and you've deflected. You made the claim, why aren't you backing it up? There must be something for you to be so sure that not only did it help, but he was carried by Duchene.

All strengths
6pts with Duchen on the ice in 172 mins, 2.09/60
35 w/o Duchene in 978 mins, 2.14/60

ES
4 pts with Duchene in 109 mins, 2.2/60
31 pts w/o Duchene in 874 min, 2.13/60

PP
2 pts with Duchene in 62 mins 1.94/60
6 pts w/o Duchene in 88 mins 4.09/60

None of this suggests he was carried by Duchene.

Hey - I’ve made the claim since day 1 that he is over rated. I stand by my player eval. I don’t need a simple metric to prove my opinion.

You are looking soooo hard to discredit my eval. I will gladly stand by my statement than Colin White benefited froM MS/MD last year. I also think every single player on the team offensively benefited by both players.

Do you think CW’s season would have been better if MD wasn’t on the Sens? I don’t . But hey I am fine if you disagree... I’m aware that many people think CW is way more effective than I do.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

How quickly "carried by" morphs to "benefited from"

 

[Sweatred]

How quickly "carried by" morphs to "benefited from"

That’s lame. This is why I skip over your posts because they offer nothing beyond “your dumb” type comments. This is for you.

You are looking soooo hard to discredit my eval. I will gladly stand by my statement than Colin White was carried by MS/MD last year. I also think every single player on the team offensively benefited by both players.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

That’s lame. This is why I skip over your posts because they offer nothing beyond “your dumb” type comments. This is for you.

You are looking soooo hard to discredit my eval. I will gladly stand by my statement than Colin White was carried by MS/MD last year. I also think every single player on the team offensively benefited by both players.

I'm really not looking hard. It's very easily apparent. I apologize that there are people here trying to keep you honest - I realize that it makes what you're doing far less fun.

Again - no one argued that White did not benefit from both players. The argument is that White was not carried by Duchene. Hence "how quickly 'carried by' morphs into 'benefits from".

 

[Sweatred]

I'm really not looking hard. It's very easily apparent. I apologize that there are people here trying to keep you honest - I realize that it makes what you're doing far less fun.

Again - no one argued that White did not benefit from both players. The argument is that White was not carried by Duchene. Hence "how quickly 'carried by' morphs into 'benefits from".

Please - I am begging you to stop. I have said White was carried by MS/MD probably 20+ times. I even edited my grammar for you by reusing “carried”. Agree or disagree, I don’t care.

I am aware that there are about 10 posters that just want to bash my white posts. It’s the same progression of insults every time .
1) your are an idiot/wrong (sunmer)
2) excuse for play ex injury/position (fall)
3) your insane (after 1-2)

Beyond that I have appreciated and learned from many of the insights into different perspectives of the White contract that for the most part soften the risk.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Hey - I’ve made the claim since day 1 that he is over rated. I stand by my player eval. I don’t need a simple metric to prove my opinion.

You are looking soooo hard to discredit my eval. I will gladly stand by my statement than Colin White benefited froM MS/MD last year. I also think every single player on the team offensively benefited by both players.

Do you think CW’s season would have been better if MD wasn’t on the Sens? I don’t . But hey I am fine if you disagree... I’m aware that many people think CW is way more effective than I do.

You think he's overrated. Its a valid opinion. Do you have to post ad nauseam about it at every opportunity? Seriously. You claim not to dislike him .. yet you run him into the ground every chance you get. And find a post of mine that says he is anything but a tweener... and that might be high but the jury is still out , at least for me on that. Also find a post of mine that defends the money he is getting. He's having a bad season.. can he improve .. I think so. If White can improve his shot/release and he can get physically stronger.. those two things alone will improve his effectiveness. I believe the contract initially was more about trying to get other players to buy into the Sens (like Chabot) and maybe later Tkachuk. Sens put him in a tough spot over his head and it no doubt crushed him a bit .. Its up to him to get better . Let's see if he does. If he does not play up to his contract so be it.. we do not have to hear about it from you every day.

 

[Sweatred]

You have no idea if that's true. All it takes is one team to like the player and think he's been dealt a bad hand.

If there were teams who would have given him his contract last off-season (my stance is that there were) ~40 games of uneven play isn't enough to change their opinion on the player. It obviously would have affected his value, but "not moveable" just seems like such hyperbole.

Yesterday I started this by bring up the Colin White conversation from the morning show. It turned into 2 pages of 1) you’re and idiot 2) position changes 3) you’re insane ...

Seriously, there is a group of 10 or so players that can’t debate or ignore the post. It is a legit post about his contract from members of the media posted in the Colin White contract thread.

I’d be happy to debate Simmers points or evidence to refute him. Just keep the lame, passive insults out of it.

There have been a few intelligent posts supporting White’s play without having to throw insults. They have provided unique perspective about the risk and contract that expands perceptive.

I like the player - if we gave Brann $26 million tomorrow I would say that is a mistake too.