Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Red Wings and it didn't go so well!

[Shady Machine]

If they don’t win one game against even the Rags, they don’t deserve to be there...

What is the point of this post? They beat the Rangers a week ago. Why are you so negative all the time lol

 

[Shady Machine]

I just don't see this team believing in themselves like that 2016 and 2017 squad.

This team is fractured and has faced adversity all season and has buckled far more than persevere. Then injuries started to give them a reason to mail it in, instead of rallying around it, which they have at times, they look defeated far too early in games and then in some games, they show that fight back that you know they are capable of. I see more of that from a lot of teams, but the Pens...

Oh boy, when they bail, they.****ing.bail.

I get it, we are missing our top pair right now and our 2nd C, the 101st greatest player. But we are not without the kind of jam that should make teams still back the **** up when the Pens are opposite to them. I don't know what they need, but they need to rally around something. Cullen isn't the guy to rally around for a 3rd time (which would be cool), but Murray lost his father, Sullivan lost his father...in that kind of adversity, you would think this team knew how precious it was that they get to spend this time together as a team. Cullen is going to retire, they're going to see long time friends part ways (Kuhn gone last year, etc).

This team lost its sack.

What are you even talking about? The Pens lost Letang and Dumo and proceeded to go on a tear. They lost a few due to late tying goals, everyone here freaked out, and then Murray/team defense proceeded to shut the door since then. I've seen plenty of overcoming adversity this year. That doesn't mean they will contend for a Cup, but I don't see the signs they won't other than health.

It's amazing to me how two groups of fans can watch the same thing and come to completely different conclusions.

 

[MrBrightside]

This forum never fails to make me laugh after a loss. You honestly we would have a better chance next year with Sid and Geno a year older and Jake not on his ELC any more? If there is anything the Pens have proven this season is that they can beat any contender (except the Sharks but it's very unlikely we get to play them in the playoffs, so who cares). They have a big problem beating bad teams, winning 3 on 3 OTs and shootouts but there wouldn't be any of those in the playoffs.

Yes, we do too much line-juggling but still create tons of chances. Blaming the coaching staff for proven goalscorers like 87, 72, 81 and 59 missing one glorious chance after another is asinine. Now, the PP is a different matter, it's barely creating anything and it's not exactly surprising that it can't score. At least we haven't allowed a SHG in a while.

I wish I could "like" this post more than once. Holy hell is the negativity on this place whenever they lose a game absolutely off the charts.

 

[Shady Machine]

I know it's not the popular vote...

But I almost rather not make it this year so Malkin and Letang can rest and heal, we get a higher pick, and JR is forced to really do a deep dive at our severely pathetic prospect pool on D and make some sweeping changes on D. If that means we do move Schultz, fine, but it better be a damn good trade.

At this point - Dumoulin, Letang, and Pettersson are the only 3 I don't move on D.

Because if we make it, Geno and Letang could get hurt even more forcing themselves to come back, making their summer shorter by recovering first and then back to training.

Not only is this not the popular vote, it's nonsensical. Letang and Malkin are injured every year. Wishing to miss the playoffs for them to get healthy is illogical since they will just get injured again next March.

 

[Icarium]

People still act like the NHL is some league where the top teams curb-stomp the bottom feeders as a matter of course and when the Pens lose to a team other than the top contenders, it must be because the coach is an idiot, the players are gutless, etc., the lines and the tactics are all wrong, not because you know, other teams can play well too. What's even funnier is that this indignation often comes from the same posters who assure us that the roster is bad, that we have no shot at the Cup but somehow losing to this red hot Wings team is a total failure of everyone from Sully to the zamboni drivers. All teams are flawed, even Tampa (albeit to a lesser extent). We got ourselves into a big hole in November, rebounded very well despite all the injuries but the Top 9 in the East this year happen to have a record-breaking pace, so our playoff spot is not yet secured. If we choke in the next two games - go for it, criticize all you want because it would be an epic collapse for the ages but this negativity when the team is winning far more often that it loses is simply laughable.

Not only is this not the popular vote, it's nonsensical. Letang and Malkin are injured every year. Wishing to miss the playoffs for them to get healthy is illogical since they will just get injured again next March.

Yes, we had a second round exit last year and yet Malkin has missed more games this year. And the kind of injuries they get don't seem to have anything to do with fatigue anyway. The Cup window is now and for maximum two more years, wishing for the Pens to miss the playoffs is just bizarre to me.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There's a good chance, regardless of who we face, that we're done in the first round anyway. Missing the playoffs probably doesn't dramatically change our draft position, and like Shady Machine said, rest doesn't really matter when the guys are getting hurt by crosschecks to the ribs or a boogered up neck/spine.

Assuming we make it, which I'm still entirely confident in, we're going to have a ton of guys playing well below standards and several key players injured or returning from injury. It's been the Sid, Jake and Murray show all season, but that'll be the case even more so this spring.

 

[EightyOne]

They messed up the timing to tank by performing as they have for the last eight weeks.

Lol

 

[Extra Texture]

While I think JR made some good moves the players we got aren't showing up enough for us. Basically IF Sid and/or Geno aren't carrying us we're pretty unremarkable. We're still a good team but not much more if our stars don't carry us on their backs. Two or less goals in seven of our last ten.

Well, of course if our stars dont show up we look worse, but I dont agree with the premise that JR's trades arent showing up. Last night, McCann was pretty invisible, fair enough, but Bjug's line (once again) dominated its TOI and manufactured about a billion chances. Howard was just the right combination of good and lucky when he had to be. You could say that about the Pens night in general, but L3 seemed to do what it always does: get sustained pressure, hold it in the zone, lose the puck and then win it back in the O-zone, and just generally be the right combination of pesky and rangy. And before last night they had 6 points in their last three games between them.

No doubt, Gudbranson has been pleasantly unnoticeable on the blueline. Has been without many major gaffes (the kind we were all assured would happen by the truck load every game). But after a touch and go start, the two Florida guys, especially Bjugstad, are good enough to drive a line. McCann, IMO, should be put back with Sid. And get ZAR back

 

[AverageJoeFan]

However it happens, we really need one more win. Just to make sure...

 

[MtlPenFan]

The Caps Nick Jensen is something JR would have done 3 years ago. The Caps learned their lesson playing the Pens in 2016, as did the Sharks.

The team's problems started with JR's Hunwick and Reaves signings. The Reaves move came from the very top, but the point stands that the GM immediately reversed his position on speed and transition after those two very traits won him back to back Cups in a hard cap era.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I wish I could "like" this post more than once. Holy hell is the negativity on this place whenever they lose a game absolutely off the charts.

They constantly remind me of a teammate I had that was a whiney quitter. He couldn’t take any adversity. We would go down a couple goals and he would be moping and mumbling dumb shit.

If we lost.... he was unbearable. I finally called him out for what he was and it got a little ugly, but I never got how someone’s brain functions like that.

Adversity is a huge part of sports... and most especially life. Just a huge pet peeve of mine when people act like that.

 

[Bnat66]

I see a lot of criticism when they have bad games. There are 82 games in a season and even though these are professional athletes, they are still human. We all have ups and downs. This team has been competitive year in and year out. Recent back to back cups, the Pens are always the team to beat so every team will use that benchmark to bring their best to beat them. Its impossible to keep the same exact team every year, so chemistry gets disrupted and there are new challenges.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Sullivan needs to stop playing Simon in the lineup, let alone playing him with Sid.

It’s ridiculous.

That's Sid's call. Laugh it off, but it's the truth.

 

[Beauner]

Sullivan needs to stop playing Simon in the lineup, let alone playing him with Sid.

It’s ridiculous.

Why? Who else are you going to insert right now? You want to call up Blandisi? Jimmy Hayes? I don't get people that hate on Simon.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The Caps Nick Jensen is something JR would have done 3 years ago. The Caps learned their lesson playing the Pens in 2016, as did the Sharks.

The team's problems started with JR's Hunwick and Reaves signings. The Reaves move came from the very top, but the point stands that the GM immediately reversed his position on speed and transition after those two very traits won him back to back Cups in a hard cap era.

When the entire league shifts their approach to copy your style, as you've won back to back Cups with it, you'd imagine that sets off all kinds of bells and whistles signaling that it's a damn good approach to building a team.

Just bewildering how we completely went away from that. I've wondered for a while if it has anything to do with Botterill's departure, which happened in the playoffs (May) of our second of back to backs. That immediate off-season is when the weird decisions began, and I can't help but wonder if it's connected.

Whether Botterill had more power/say than we knew, or whether or not he was constantly in JR's ear, talking him out of deals or shifting him toward others, who knows. But I'm fairly confident that things changed dramatically as soon as Botterill left.

 

[ncm7772]

Sullivan needs to stop playing Simon in the lineup, let alone playing him with Sid.

It’s ridiculous.

Why? Who else are you going to insert right now? You want to call up Blandisi? Jimmy Hayes? I don't get people that hate on Simon.

I'm not a fan of Simon, as I think he's essentially useless when no next to Crosby, but @Beauner is right. There's literally nobody else.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Caps Nick Jensen is something JR would have done 3 years ago. The Caps learned their lesson playing the Pens in 2016, as did the Sharks.

The team's problems started with JR's Hunwick and Reaves signings. The Reaves move came from the very top, but the point stands that the GM immediately reversed his position on speed and transition after those two very traits won him back to back Cups in a hard cap era.

I mean while I agree. Nick Jensen isn’t doing much here.

 

[Gurglesons]

When the entire league shifts their approach to copy your style, as you've won back to back Cups with it, you'd imagine that sets off all kinds of bells and whistles signaling that it's a damn good approach to building a team.

Just bewildering how we completely went away from that. I've wondered for a while if it has anything to do with Botterill's departure, which happened in the playoffs (May) of our second of back to backs. That immediate off-season is when the weird decisions began, and I can't help but wonder if it's connected.

Whether Botterill had more power/say than we knew, or whether or not he was constantly in JR's ear, talking him out of deals or shifting him toward others, who knows. But I'm fairly confident that things changed dramatically as soon as Botterill left.

JR adjusted the team to play a heavy forecheck because (and he is right) as our team gets older speed won’t be an advantage.

Also, Boston, San Jose, Calgary, are all not fast teams compared to some. If you try to build a team that is the current trend you usually end up on the outside looking in.

 

[Shwag33]

Bylsma would also have this team playing some pretty good hockey while missing half the line-up, Sully is clueless when he loses just Geno.

Still hate Disco though.

Yeah I mean, they just crushed march while missing key pieces.... I think just a lot of the posters on this board are clueless.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

JR adjusted the team to play a heavy forecheck because (and he is right) as our team gets older speed won’t be an advantage.

Also, Boston, San Jose, Calgary, are all not fast teams compared to some. If you try to build a team that is the current trend you usually end up on the outside looking in.

I'd consider Calgary a fast team. I wouldn't consider Boston a slow team whatsoever. I don't watch enough Sharks games to comment so I'll just go with you on that one. It sort of brings up an interesting question; What makes a fast team? The number of guys who can skate fast? We didn't exactly have a full lineup of speedsters a la NHL 94. We had a few, sprinkled throughout the lineup, but the more important thing is that we played fast. I wouldn't consider Sid or Geno blazing fast anymore, but they have a gear they can reach where they push the pace. We used to have this killer instinct, aggressive style where we were constantly on the counter attack. Things seem so much more stale and structured now. I don't know if that's a roster composition thing, or a coaching thing, or guys just not giving a shit as much anymore (which I suppose leads back to coaching).

I don't think we were a fast team because we had Hags, an engaged Kessel, and Rust. I think we were a fast team because of our style of play, which fell in line with having guys like Hags, Phil, and Rust. It also doesn't help that Schultz is struggling as much as Phil all season, maybe worse. That's a big missing piece in terms of being able to play fast, the transition game Schultz can bring. Especially with Letang battling his neck/spine thing. It doesn't matter much if we have speedy forwards, to be fair, when our transition game is on the stick of guys like Maatta, JJ, Gudbranson and Trotman.

Rough stuff.

 

[StaalForOne]

Didn't read through all 8 pages, but I did want to say that I liked how they tried a new PP look. Kessel on the right side, and up top a little bit. I'm not saying I like the look, but trying something new at least shows they know the PP is an issue and are trying new things.

 

[Andy99]

I see a lot of criticism when they have bad games. There are 82 games in a season and even though these are professional athletes, they are still human. We all have ups and downs. This team has been competitive year in and year out. Recent back to back cups, the Pens are always the team to beat so every team will use that benchmark to bring their best to beat them. Its impossible to keep the same exact team every year, so chemistry gets disrupted and there are new challenges.

This is very valid point during most of the season, and it's fine for them to play bad or give halfhearted effort for many many games. It's not valid when there are three games left in the season and you have a chance to clinch a PO berth and haven't yet, and you don't know if you'll get help from other teams. If you have a bad game 7 of your PO series, you'll be going home. Then, playing "bad" just means you aren't good enough. And frankly, when you can't get it done when you need to, that's exactly what a "bad" game means. It's upsetting for fans to believe their team isn't good enough to win anything, but at some point, that's exactly what having a "bad" game means..

 

[Andy99]

I'd consider Calgary a fast team. I wouldn't consider Boston a slow team whatsoever. I don't watch enough Sharks games to comment so I'll just go with you on that one. It sort of brings up an interesting question; What makes a fast team? The number of guys who can skate fast? We didn't exactly have a full lineup of speedsters a la NHL 94. We had a few, sprinkled throughout the lineup, but the more important thing is that we played fast. I wouldn't consider Sid or Geno blazing fast anymore, but they have a gear they can reach where they push the pace. We used to have this killer instinct, aggressive style where we were constantly on the counter attack. Things seem so much more stale and structured now. I don't know if that's a roster composition thing, or a coaching thing, or guys just not giving a **** as much anymore (which I suppose leads back to coaching).

I don't think we were a fast team because we had Hags, an engaged Kessel, and Rust. I think we were a fast team because of our style of play, which fell in line with having guys like Hags, Phil, and Rust. It also doesn't help that Schultz is struggling as much as Phil all season, maybe worse. That's a big missing piece in terms of being able to play fast, the transition game Schultz can bring. Especially with Letang battling his neck/spine thing. It doesn't matter much if we have speedy forwards, to be fair, when our transition game is on the stick of guys like Maatta, JJ, Gudbranson and Trotman.

Rough stuff.

Washington and Boston have all injected youth and speed since 2016 and it's only helped them. Of course, those players have to have skill too...but they have at least comparable speed to the Pens as far as even playing fast, and the Pens have no advantage over those teams in any facet...that's not say JR's effort to get more size and grit hasn't been helpful either, but we just don't stand out...

 

[Icarium]

Washington and Boston have all injected youth and speed since 2016 and it's only helped them. Of course, those players have to have skill too...but they have at least comparable speed to the Pens as far as even playing fast, and the Pens have no advantage over those teams in any facet...

Amazing how we managed to beat them five times this season then.

And frankly, when you can't get it done when you need to, that's exactly what a "bad" game means. It's upsetting for fans to believe their team isn't good enough to win anything, but at some point, that's exactly what having a "bad" game means..

Cup winners have plenty of bad games too. Boston just lost to this same Wings team, so did Vegas and San Jose, I guess they ain't good either.

 

[Gurglesons]

Washington and Boston have all injected youth and speed since 2016 and it's only helped them. Of course, those players have to have skill too...but they have at least comparable speed to the Pens as far as even playing fast, and the Pens have no advantage over those teams in any facet...that's not say JR's effort to get more size and grit hasn't been helpful either, but we just don't stand out...

Weird how we have winning records against both teams this season with no advantage..