Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Red Wings and it didn't go so well!

[Shwag33]

I feel like people are just ignoring the realities with this team. This team lives and dies on Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Murray and Kessel. The rest of the team can win you a game here and there, but you're going to really struggle to win if any more than 1 of that group is struggling. It just makes everything worse when a lot of your depth players are struggling at the same time that your top guys are either struggling or hurt.

That's just what this team is, they're super streaky. They can either lose in 5 games in the 1st round, while not being able to score a goal, or they can make a cup run. If you want to debate reasons for that, be my guest, but that's just what the team is at this point. The fact that people are just scapegoating Kessel for the team's issues right now just tells me that people don't want to admit that fact.

This is true, but honestly how many teams can't you say that about in the last 3 years? Tampa this year maybe, but they lost to montreal last night, cup run is over for them I guess. Tampa fans wanted Jon cooper canned as well about 1.5 years ago.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is true, but honestly how many teams can't you say that about in the last 3 years? Tampa this year maybe, but they lost to montreal last night, cup run is over for them I guess. Tampa fans wanted Jon cooper canned as well about 1.5 years ago.

That is true, I should have made my point more clear. I was mostly comparing the Penguins now to the Penguins of 2014. The teams back in that time frame were more consistent (from what I remember) because the core guys were younger and better at that point. The core as a whole is worse now than it was then, so you're going to see the issues they masked then more often now.

They an inconsistent team this year and will likely continue to be because their core is just older and worse. They can't mask issues with the depth players like they used to be able to. Because of that, you'll have more stretches like their recent run or their run in November going forward. They're just in a lull right now, and it's impossible to tell whether they'll get out of it.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I feel like people are just ignoring the realities with this team. This team lives and dies on Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Murray and Kessel. The rest of the team can win you a game here and there, but you're going to really struggle to win if any more than 1 of that group is struggling. It just makes everything worse when a lot of your depth players are struggling at the same time that your top guys are either struggling or hurt.

That's just what this team is, they're super streaky. They can either lose in 5 games in the 1st round, while not being able to score a goal, or they can make a cup run. If you want to debate reasons for that, be my guest, but that's just what the team is at this point. The fact that people are just scapegoating Kessel for the team's issues right now just tells me that people don't want to admit that fact.

This post makes so much sense that I really don't believe I read it on HF Boards

 

[Shwag33]

That is true, I should have made my point more clear. I was mostly comparing the Penguins now to the Penguins of 2014. The teams back in that time frame were more consistent (from what I remember) because the core guys were younger and better at that point. The core as a whole is worse now than it was then, so you're going to see the issues they masked then more often now.

They an inconsistent team this year and will likely continue to be because their core is just older and worse. They can't mask issues with the depth players like they used to be able to. Because of that, you'll have more stretches like their recent run or their run in November going forward. They're just in a lull right now, and it's impossible to tell whether they'll get out of it.

Yeah agree, I mean if Malkin and Phil suck, while Crosby plays average for him; we're going to lose it's as simple as that. All this complaining about how sully can't do anything right and who is on the fourth line really isn't even worth talking about. We could maybe beat the isles/canes in that scenario, but we're not beating the top tier.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Lines are better, I'll take it. I'd still like to see Kessel with Crosby. I kind of see why it doesn't happen, Kessel is lazy. But there wasn't much space last night for some reason. More open game, I think they could do damage.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Lines are better, I'll take it. I'd still like to see Kessel with Crosby. I kind of see why it doesn't happen, Kessel is lazy. But there wasn't much space last night for some reason. More open game, I think they could do damage.

I've been pimping Kessel/Crosby since we acquired Phil. Ridiculous they've gotten so little 5v5 time together.

But we're in game 79 so now is not really the time to be asking the question "Can Phil/Sid play together?". McCann has proven he's a fit with Sid/Jake so we shouldn't deviate with what we absolutely know what works

Game 1 next season though should start with Phil and Sid...see where that takes us for 15 games

 

[Pancakes]

I feel like people are just ignoring the realities with this team. This team lives and dies on Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Murray and Kessel. The rest of the team can win you a game here and there, but you're going to really struggle to win if any more than 1 of that group is struggling. It just makes everything worse when a lot of your depth players are struggling at the same time that your top guys are either struggling or hurt.

That's just what this team is, they're super streaky. They can either lose in 5 games in the 1st round, while not being able to score a goal, or they can make a cup run. If you want to debate reasons for that, be my guest, but that's just what the team is at this point. The fact that people are just scapegoating Kessel for the team's issues right now just tells me that people don't want to admit that fact.

I'm probably Kessel's most ardent defender here and I've been steadfast in my belief that we will most likely lose any trade involving him.

But, I also think it's fair to criticize him and point out that his immense struggles since the turn of the calendar year have been difficult on this team. Like yes Crosby is struggling right now, but we could live with that if Kessel was playing like he's capable of. Instead, Kessel has been slumping badly enough that when Crosby and Malkin hit rough patches we're just so done unless Murray carries us.

I don't think anyone here would even care that Sid was slumping if Kessel was producing. But he's not, and so Sid's struggles are magnified and we look really bad when both of them are slumping.

 

[Gurglesons]

Thas why I said about least amount of damage, I love that line a lot but there is a legit concern of these guys scoring...all the chances they created, Horny scored one and I think Bjugs one...

In 132 minutes they’ve been on the ice for 5 GF and 2 GA. Why would we care if they are
not producing with those types of GA issues..

 

[molon labe]

Yeah agree, I mean if Malkin and Phil suck, while Crosby plays average for him; we're going to lose it's as simple as that. All this complaining about how sully can't do anything right and who is on the fourth line really isn't even worth talking about. We could maybe beat the isles/canes in that scenario, but we're not beating the top tier.

Sid and Guentzel nearly took down Washington last playoffs with the only extra help coming from Hornqvist.

If you add solid team D to a similar situation you don't need Phil/Geno on the same level. IF they can get there, you obviously like your chances better. We won tight playoff games when all of our players contributed - the difference was we had occasional 7-0 games in the process when EVERYONE contributed (rare).

I'm simply at the point of neutrality for the playoffs this season. The group has given us nothing to really expect. They're flaky, streaky, uninspired, and lack any sort of edge or swagger we've seen in years past. We're holding on to that glimmer that "maybe half of our players will get going" - and we've been doing so for over four months. There's two games left...and what's changed? MM turned around, Rust got better before getting worse, and we ditched three vanilla players. We're still waiting on the likes of Phil, Geno, Hornqvist, Rust, and Schultz to return to form. That's a pretty tall ask.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm probably Kessel's most ardent defender here and I've been steadfast in my belief that we will most likely lose any trade involving him.

But, I also think it's fair to criticize him and point out that his immense struggles since the turn of the calendar year have been difficult on this team. Like yes Crosby is struggling right now, but we could live with that if Kessel was playing like he's capable of. Instead, Kessel has been slumping badly enough that when Crosby and Malkin hit rough patches we're just so done unless Murray carries us.

I don't think anyone here would even care that Sid was slumping if Kessel was producing. But he's not, and so Sid's struggles are magnified and we look really bad when both of them are slumping.

Kessel has actually been decently productive recently, with 7 points in his last 9 games. Kessel hasn't been good enough dating back to the start of 2019, that is true, but just scapegoating Kessel as causing this team's problems is just ignoring how flawed this team is. Kessel could potentially be masking these problems if he was playing well (although I do openly question how much better he can actually be, he is on pace for 66 points in 2019 after all), but those problems would still exist.

The Penguins are just a team with an aging core and aging cores tend to be less consistent than younger cores. Outside of blowing up your core, there really isn't anything you can do about it outside of hoping they're on in the playoffs. I don't see a reason to complain about problems that are being exposed when the inconsistent team is in a lull, because those problems aren't going to be what causes the Penguins to lose in the playoffs. If the Penguins lose, it's going to be from the majority of the core being in a bad stretch.

Maybe I'm just way more lukewarm on the Penguins than others, but I don't have any expectations for them at this point. I just view them as an aging team that can easily win another cup if the stars align, but I'm not going to expect them to win in any given year. Seeing how they've won 3 cups already, I'm not too upset about that being their fate (if it is their fate going forward).

 

[SouthGeorge]

I've been pimping Kessel/Crosby since we acquired Phil. Ridiculous they've gotten so little 5v5 time together.

But we're in game 79 so now is not really the time to be asking the question "Can Phil/Sid play together?". McCann has proven he's a fit with Sid/Jake so we shouldn't deviate with what we absolutely know what works

Game 1 next season though should start with Phil and Sid...see where that takes us for 15 games

Except he deviated for a few weeks now. Kessel might not get a chance next year if he doesn't turn it around quick. Malkin/Kessel haven't done much for months now.

 

[Pancakes]

Kessel has actually been decently productive recently, with 7 points in his last 9 games. Kessel hasn't been good enough dating back to the start of 2019, that is true, but just scapegoating Kessel as causing this team's problems is just ignoring how flawed this team is. Kessel could potentially be masking these problems if he was playing well (although I do openly question how much better he can actually be, he is on pace for 66 points in 2019 after all), but those problems would still exist.

The Penguins are just a team with an aging core and aging cores tend to be less consistent than younger cores. Outside of blowing up your core, there really isn't anything you can do about it outside of hoping they're on in the playoffs. I don't see a reason to complain about problems that are being exposed when the inconsistent team is in a lull, because those problems aren't going to be what causes the Penguins to lose in the playoffs. If the Penguins lose, it's going to be from the majority of the core being in a bad stretch.

And that's why I think you're probably better off riding it out with Kessel rather than moving him. If you trade him now, then you end up with probably some younger pieces/picks/whatever. Which is great for the future, but the future is also going to still feature an older Crosby and Malkin.

In my opinion you contend now, and when Crosby/Malkin age out enough to hit a wall, that's when you go back into tank mode for the next generational star lol.

Nobody wants to hear it, but the truth is we're going to go through the same path Detroit and other teams did. Win Cups---> Get older---> still make playoffs but not be top contender because stars are older---->Stars get old enough you start missing playoffs---->Team crashes/tanks/reloads and begins cycle again.

It's possible to break that cycle a little bit by finding late round gems. We did do that with Murray and Guentzel. And San Jose has managed to do that even with Thornton and Marleau aging out of being stars. But it's very hard to do. Very hard.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And that's why I think you're probably better off riding it out with Kessel rather than moving him. If you trade him now, then you end up with probably some younger pieces/picks/whatever. Which is great for the future, but the future is also going to still feature an older Crosby and Malkin.

In my opinion you contend now, and when Crosby/Malkin age out enough to hit a wall, that's when you go back into tank mode for the next generational star lol.

I agree with the rest, but just wanted to focus on this. I think there is 1 debate that really matters when it comes to trading Kessel, do you think he's a part of the core? If you think he is a part of the core, I completely get this line of thought. If you think he's a complementary piece, like what Neal was back in the day, I think that's where the big justification comes from for moving him. If he's a part of the core, you keep him to gamble on him striking gold in the playoffs. If he's not, I don't think you gamble on that.

You can argue anything between the core being only Crosby and Malkin to the core being Crosby, Malkin, Murray, Letang, Guentzel, Kessel, Dumoulin and possibly Hornqvist. I think it depends on how you define "core".

 

[ncm7772]

As expected. Malkin will play tomorrow.

Also, lines are what everyone wanted? What shall we complain about now!

EVERYTHING!!!!!

 

[molon labe]

I agree with the rest, but just wanted to focus on this. I think there is 1 debate that really matters when it comes to trading Kessel, do you think he's a part of the core? If you think he is a part of the core, I completely get this line of thought. If you think he's a complementary piece, like what Neal was back in the day, I think that's where the big justification comes from for moving him. If he's a part of the core, you keep him to gamble on him striking gold in the playoffs. If he's not, I don't think you gamble on that.

You can argue anything between the core being only Crosby and Malkin to the core being Crosby, Malkin, Murray, Letang, Guentzel, Kessel, Dumoulin and possibly Hornqvist. I think it depends on how you define "core".

I think folks use core and untouchable as synonymous when they shouldn't. Core players don't typically get moved, but I think they should be considered when necessary.

I like what you're pointing out; it should be prefaced when people discuss the notion of 'our aging core' or 'our core group of guys' etc.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My stance on the Kessel situation is that you cannot possibly hope to remain competitive once "The Decline" starts if you have four or five guys around the age when "The Decline" tends to begin--making close to $40 million a year. With Sid, Geno and Letang, you've got three guys who are lifers. With Hornqvist and Kessel, you have important pieces that aren't part of the true core, in my opinion. I'd like to see JR be proactive in trying to keep us competitive into said decline. That means cutting ties with Phil and Horny before they drop off a cliff and become unmovable, I believe. Give Sid and Geno guys with fresh legs, and a desperate hunger to win. We've got several pieces with Jake, McCann and Rust, but we still need one or two more up front moving forward. As far as this situation goes, I'd much rather we move Phil a season too early and have him do well somewhere else while we reap the benefits of a younger supporting cast as opposed to being stuck with Kessel after it's apparent he's well into "The Decline", meaning you've got close to $7 million tied up in an aging winger that relies on his skating to create production, struggles with allowing his frustration to dictate his performance on the ice, and seems unable or unwilling to play with anyone but Geno.

 

[KIRK]

My stance on the Kessel situation is that you cannot possibly hope to remain competitive once "The Decline" starts if you have four or five guys around the age when "The Decline" tends to begin--making close to $40 million a year. With Sid, Geno and Letang, you've got three guys who are lifers. With Hornqvist and Kessel, you have important pieces that aren't part of the true core, in my opinion. I'd like to see JR be proactive in trying to keep us competitive into said decline. That means cutting ties with Phil and Horny before they drop off a cliff and become unmovable, I believe. Give Sid and Geno guys with fresh legs, and a desperate hunger to win. We've got several pieces with Jake, McCann and Rust, but we still need one or two more up front moving forward. As far as this situation goes, I'd much rather we move Phil a season too early and have him do well somewhere else while we reap the benefits of a younger supporting cast as opposed to being stuck with Kessel after it's apparent he's well into "The Decline", meaning you've got close to $7 million tied up in an aging winger that relies on his skating to create production, struggles with allowing his frustration to dictate his performance on the ice, and seems unable or unwilling to play with anyone but Geno.

And he wasn't exactly an active partner at 5 on 5 even with Geno this year.

End of the day, Phil's level of engagement in the playoffs-- not just the points or how far the Pens go but specifically whether Phil plays like it's the playoffs instead of a beer league game-- most likely will dictate where he plays next year.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

And he wasn't exactly an active partner at 5 on 5 even with Geno this year.

End of the day, Phil's level of engagement in the playoffs-- not just the points or how far the Pens go but specifically whether Phil plays like it's the playoffs instead of a beer league game-- most likely will dictate where he plays next year.

I have an inkling he's not going to be here regardless of his playoff performance. Certainly an all-world performance lessens the likelihood he's moved, but I think JR's probably been entertaining the idea of moving on for some time. I don't see anything like a dominant performance up Phil's sleeve this spring though; he's just playing with absolutely zero confidence. He's hesitating with regard to every facet of the game, and he's seemingly totally against shooting unless there are simply zero other options. This season's struggles probably haven't helped Phil's case of sticking around though.

And just because I know someone will bring it up, I'm not satisfied with Hornqvist's play this season either. I just think he brings more to the table than Phil outside of things that show up on the scoresheet, and makes a good chunk less, so he's not a top priority this summer. He can also play up and down the lineup, though I'm really happy with him on that third line with Bjugs.

 

[RSPens]

Its nice to see that Geno is likely back for Thursday. It would allow Sully to try a couple different combinations leading into the playoffs, hopefully finding something that works. Unfortunately, it looks like the lines will be back to what works temporarily...and we need to hope that temporarily working is enough for a cup run. I would give this a shot, but we know its not happening.

Jake - Sid - Bleuger (yes Bleugs has cooled off, but the young legs and drive could be enough to get Sid going again)
Simon - Geno - Rust (I don't think this has been tried before? Who knows it could be great)
McCann - Bjugs - Kessel (I just think this is the best way to get Kessel engaged)
AJ - Cullen - Horny (Sure it puts Horny on the 4th, but I would also occasionally double shift Crosby with this line and give Horny a few shifts with lines 1 and 2)

Oh well, it will never happen.

 

[KIRK]

I have an inkling he's not going to be here regardless of his playoff performance. Certainly an all-world performance lessens the likelihood he's moved, but I think JR's probably been entertaining the idea of moving on for some time. I don't see anything like a dominant performance up Phil's sleeve this spring though; he's just playing with absolutely zero confidence. He's hesitating with regard to every facet of the game, and he's seemingly totally against shooting unless there are simply zero other options. This season's struggles probably haven't helped Phil's case of sticking around though.

And just because I know someone will bring it up, I'm not satisfied with Hornqvist's play this season either. I just think he brings more to the table than Phil outside of things that show up on the scoresheet, and makes a good chunk less, so he's not a top priority this summer. He can also play up and down the lineup, though I'm really happy with him on that third line with Bjugs.

Well, I'd certainly LOVE for them to use a legit great performance (and again that's beyond the points) from Phil to sell high, but I suspect they'd use it as a rationale to keep him.'

 

[KIRK]

Its nice to see that Geno is likely back for Thursday. It would allow Sully to try a couple different combinations leading into the playoffs, hopefully finding something that works. Unfortunately, it looks like the lines will be back to what works temporarily...and we need to hope that temporarily working is enough for a cup run. I would give this a shot, but we know its not happening.

Jake - Sid - Bleuger (yes Bleugs has cooled off, but the young legs and drive could be enough to get Sid going again)
Simon - Geno - Rust (I don't think this has been tried before? Who knows it could be great)
McCann - Bjugs - Kessel (I just think this is the best way to get Kessel engaged)
AJ - Cullen - Horny (Sure it puts Horny on the 4th, but I would also occasionally double shift Crosby with this line and give Horny a few shifts with lines 1 and 2)

Oh well, it will never happen.

Not a fan of Simon with Geno. Just not.

It looks like McCann-Sid-Jake, Rust-Geno-Phil, Simon-Bjugs-Horny, Blugs-Cullen-Wilson gets first crack. Can't say it's not the smart play.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Well, I'd certainly LOVE for them to use a legit great performance (and again that's beyond the points) from Phil to sell high, but I suspect they'd use it as a rationale to keep him.'

Agreed on both points. Sadly, again, I don't see Phil flipping that switch though. Not with our blueline a mess, resulting in a poor transition game, and Geno's ribs probably still all boogered up. Though now's as good a time as any for Phil to show he's still capable of taking over a game, and prove us all wrong.

 

[Angrrus]

I really hope Geno comes back Thursday, this isn't funny anymore. We still control our destiny, but the margin for error is slim.

Yes! We need more turnovers, lazy backchecks, blown PP opportunities and wasted scoring chances! Bring on the Geno!

PS And I don’t give a F if somebody thinks I bring up too many negative points.

I’m mad at Pens, and I don’t want to calm down, and I don’t care what you think!

 

[Angrrus]

Sloppy, sloppier, sloppiest.

They won’t be able to “flip the switch” and start blowing at full steam once playoffs start.

They won’t.

They won’t.

Don’t hold your breath.

 

[BladeRunner66]

Yes! We need more turnovers, lazy backchecks, blown PP opportunities and wasted scoring chances! Bring on the Geno!

PS And I don’t give a F if somebody thinks I bring up too many negative points.

I’m mad at Pens, and I don’t want to calm down, and I don’t care what you think!

lol not you again, i mean... welcome!