Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus - Pens vs. Flyers... embarrassing

[drpepper]

Reading **** like that pisses me off. Even if you wanted Farnham's energy, you scratch ****ing Adams, not someone who can actually contribute at the NHL level.

Or you play

Farnham-Goc-Adams

and scratch Sill.

Other than saying it's a mid-January game and no one cares (which I doubt the coaching staff does), it's a completely indefensible decision.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Reading **** like that pisses me off. Even if you wanted Farnham's energy, you scratch ****ing Adams, not someone who can actually contribute at the NHL level.

Meh.

Reading between the lines they were saying that they knew that Philly were going to be dickheads, so brought up the best they could to deal with it.

I think that the interesting thing was that they knew that Philly was gonna Philly, it was not spur of the moment thing but an organizational meathead environment.

Maybe Farnham was not what was needed but was all that they had. I would not read more into it than that.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

No. Neal was what made the whole thing work, insofar as it worked. He's so dangerous from the high slot that not over-playing him gets you scored on. This opened up passing lanes and bought a half-second here and there for Kunitz when the puck was in the low slot or crease. I'd venture a guess the Pens didn't score many PP goals while Neal was suspended.


As far as Tocchet's ideas not working, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see any strategic problem; it's just execution. And I don't think the Pens are that far from executing everything right.

I tend to agree. The PP should never go in the tank for long periods like it has this year given the talent, but if someone can't see the difference between the PP this year and last I don't know what to say. It's more fluid, there are different configurations (*gasp*), and guys will switch spots to confuse the PK in the middle of it all (*double gasp*). It's like, a real power play. Last year they had the same five guys standing still in the same five spots all year practically. Oh, that is unless Sid and Geno were bickering over who gets to stand on the half wall. Funny how that's not an issue anymore with the new staff.

PS: Are we still doing the thing where we blame the bad PP solely on one assistant coach? This is the same as when nobody would blame Bylsma for the PP. Supposedly it was all Yeo. That's ridiculous. Johnston is the head coach and oversees things. He's also an offensive mind categorically. It's not just one guy working alone on this one aspect of the team.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I tend to agree. The PP should never go in the tank for long periods like it has this year given the talent, but if someone can't see the difference between the PP this year and last I don't know what to say. It's more fluid, there are different configurations (*gasp*), and guys will switch spots to confuse the PK in the middle of it all (*double gasp*). It's like, a real power play. Last year they had the same five guys standing still in the same five spots all year practically.

PS: Are we still doing the thing where we blame the bad PP solely on one assistant coach? This is the same as when nobody would blame Bylsma for the PP. Supposedly it was all Yeo. That's ridiculous. Johnston is the head coach and oversees things. He's also an offensive mind categorically. It's not just one guy working alone on this one aspect of the team.

I actually asked the question (twice) which was not answered. It seems to this admittedly untrained eye that the change in PP success came when other teams started challenging the puck carrier aggressively instead of hanging back, as we tend to do on the PK. The Pens seemingly have no answer for that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Meh.

Reading between the lines they were saying that they knew that Philly were going to be dickheads, so brought up the best they could to deal with it.

I think that the interesting thing was that they knew that Philly was gonna Philly, it was not spur of the moment thing but an organizational meathead environment.

Maybe Farnham was not what was needed but was all that they had. I would not read more into it than that.

But you didn't counter my point at all. My issue is with Adams playing over Goc, not Farnham playing over Goc. Adams doesn't bring energy. He's not a fighter. Him playing over Goc did absolutely nothing other than play an inferior player for no reason.

 

[ColePens]

Again, someone with more X's and O's knowledge than I have, who has played/coached the game, as I know we have here, maybe answer.

But it seems to me that while losing a player like Hornqvist hurt, the PP really went downhill when other team aggressively challenged the guy with the puck rather than sit back as we do on the PK. Am I seeing things?

Hornqvist helps but talent is overrated on the powerplay. Movement >>> talent. We have no movement. We focus on the half wall of the strong side and all 29 other teams have caught on. Sometimes our talent makes ridiculous plays, sometiems they don't.

Earlier in the season, they (especially Hornqvist) moved a lot. Then they became complacent, especially Sid/Geno, and stopped moving. It looks almost IDENTICAL to how DB ran the PP.

But you are right about pressure. Pens want to set up, sit there, and hold the puck. Pressure creates them to make bad passes and turn the puck over. That's the beauty of pressure. We used to do it in 2009. Pressure can be nullified by making short simple passes and getting pucks on net. It's also important if the first guy pressures and gets beat that they IMMEDIATELY go to the net. If you try to pass the puck off, it's just re-setting the guy who was beat.

 

[Winger for Hire]

But you didn't counter my point at all. My issue is with Adams playing over Goc, not Farnham playing over Goc. Adams doesn't bring energy. He's not a fighter. Him playing over Goc did absolutely nothing other than play an inferior player for no reason.

Maybe MJ was hoping Adams would get caught in the crossfire and get hurt?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

But you didn't counter my point at all. My issue is with Adams playing over Goc, not Farnham playing over Goc. Adams doesn't bring energy. He's not a fighter. Him playing over Goc did absolutely nothing other than play an inferior player for no reason.

yeah I got nothing.

As I said in an earlier thread, the Pens catering to Adams is a mystery to me as deep as why women go to the bathroom together. I not only have no clue as to the whys, but do not think that I want to know. The answer is likely scary.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I actually asked the question (twice) which was not answered. It seems to this admittedly untrained eye that the change in PP success came when other teams started challenging the puck carrier aggressively instead of hanging back, as we tend to do on the PK. The Pens seemingly have no answer for that.

For me I see two noticeable, possible reasons:

1) Everyone simply figured out what we were doing (much like you outline above) and Johnston/Tocchet can't come up with anything else. The timeline for the PP going gangbusters then flatlining seems to suggest it.

2) Hornqvist is more important than one may think. His injury was kinda sorta around the time they struggled I think, but I'd have to research that to know for sure.

 

[billybudd]

PS: Are we still doing the thing where we blame the bad PP solely on one assistant coach? This is the same as when nobody would blame Bylsma for the PP. Supposedly it was all Yeo. That's ridiculous. Johnston is the head coach and oversees things. He's also an offensive mind categorically. It's not just one guy working alone on this one aspect of the team.

Right. Even if, Tocchet was just a dope with a beer league concept of powerplay strategy who wormed his way into all three of his coaching jobs with nepotism, Johnston isn't.

I'm not real sure what was going on with zone entrances in December, but the rest of the current problems are mostly the results of bad habits, from what I can see.

2) Hornqvist is more important than one may think. His injury was kinda sorta around the time they struggled I think, but I'd have to research that to know for sure.

Hornqvist was the keystone for the whole thing up until we stopped getting man-advantages. I'm sure I can dig up posts from the first month of the season where I said that then.

 

[Coastal Kev]

You are making a strawman. Again.

I have yet to see anyone argue agt this team acquiring more physical players.

That doesn't mean you go outside of the rules and take retaliatory penalties, act like fools and become thugs like Philly.

Anyone talking about an eye for an eye on here is clueless and needs a mental evaluation.

One, never once said I want to be fools like Philly.

Two, if you believe in an eye for eye, you are either clueless or need a mental evaluation?? Really?? What a great argument. "if you disagree with me, you are clueless or crazy"! Amazing

Three, just because you think you know more about hockey doesn't make it so.

Four, go watch the Michel Therrien's epic PC where he calls the team out. Substitute Farnham for Talbot and you would think he was talking about the Pens after last nights game. I guess Therrien is clueless as well.

 

[drpepper]

No. Neal was what made the whole thing work, insofar as it worked. He's so dangerous from the high slot that not over-playing him gets you scored on. This opened up passing lanes and bought a half-second here and there for Kunitz when the puck was in the low slot or crease. I'd venture a guess the Pens didn't score many PP goals while Neal was suspended.


As far as Tocchet's ideas not working, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see any strategic problem; it's just execution. And I don't think the Pens are that far from executing everything right.

It's been 2 months with the two best players in the league. Not executing is an argument that is rapidly losing validity for me.

Plus Neal missed 23 games last year, not just the five he was suspended for.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Hornqvist helps but talent is overrated on the powerplay. Movement >>> talent. We have no movement. We focus on the half wall of the strong side and all 29 other teams have caught on. Sometimes our talent makes ridiculous plays, sometiems they don't.

Earlier in the season, they (especially Hornqvist) moved a lot. Then they became complacent, especially Sid/Geno, and stopped moving. It looks almost IDENTICAL to how DB ran the PP.

But you are right about pressure. Pens want to set up, sit there, and hold the puck. Pressure creates them to make bad passes and turn the puck over. That's the beauty of pressure. We used to do it in 2009. Pressure can be nullified by making short simple passes and getting pucks on net. It's also important if the first guy pressures and gets beat that they IMMEDIATELY go to the net. If you try to pass the puck off, it's just re-setting the guy who was beat.

It is not just the PP, but other teams have aggressively challenged the Pens up and down the ice. Much more than earlier in the year, and much more than I see teams do in games other than ours.

It seems to be the book on how to counter MJ's system, and the Pens have not responded well at all. Yeah, we have been decimated with injuries and pure talent will beat that I suppose, but still it has to be system and a lack fo adjustments as well.

 

[Shady Machine]

Just to put aside my anti-ref rant for a moment and to comment on some of what is going on on the ice:

1. The Pens of late have been a bunch of individuals, not a team, and it is hard to criticize a 'system' because most of the time they do not seem to have one. No look passes to no one, keystone cops scrambling up and down the ice. That includes the PP. They seem like a bunch of talented individuals (well some of them anyways) caring more about showing off than playing in any system.

2. It seems to me, one who never played and does not know the X's and O's like many here, but just watching that other teams have 'countered' MJ's system for the past couple of months, including and especially on the PP, by doing the basketball equivalent of a full court press. They constantly attack the guy with the puck and do not let an inch of ice go without challenging the player up and down the ice. On the PP they constantly attack the guy with the puck causing turn overs. Once they started doing that the PP started sucking and we started sucking. It seems that MJ has no answer for the counter. Maybe healthy talented players is the answer. I don't know, but it seems to be as much the playbook on MJ's Pens as clogging the passing lanes and taking the stretch pass away was on Disco's Pens.

I agree on number 2. They pressured the puck carrier all over the ice and we just stood still. We needed movement to break up their chasing. Another challenge last night on the PP was having Martin instead of Letang. Philly just let Martin have the puck at the point with an open shot. They played tight on all his passing lanes but wanted him to shoot muffins at the net. Even though Letang isn't accurate, they would have respected his shot more. Of course, that could have been fixed by more movement in and out of the box.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Then why the **** did Adams play, Johnston? Can't scratch the precious.

My theoretical physics is not a strong suit, but perhaps Adams convinced Johnston about harvesting the energy of a black hole?

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131203-could-black-holes-provide-energy

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

One, never once said I want to be fools like Philly.

Two, if you believe in an eye for eye, you are either clueless or need a mental evaluation?? Really?? What a great argument. "if you disagree with me, you are clueless or crazy"! Amazing

Three, just because you think you know more about hockey doesn't make it so.

Four, go watch the Michel Therrien's epic PC where he calls the team out. Substitute Farnham for Talbot and you would think he was talking about the Pens after last nights game. I guess Therrien is clueless as well.

Excpt you wouldn't because they didn't play soft last night.

 

[NastyNick]

I've been saying it for years.. they need to break up the powerplays into 2 units.

Malkin and Crosby are just too different to build a powerplay around. You tend to see them get too tenative at times.. making passes that just aren't 100% there. Alot of it has to do with Malkin's free-style and the fact that he needs to be the man for the PP to be successful with him. Crosby and Letang don't really know what hes going to do.. and the unit lacks cohesion because of it.

Besides that.. the second PP unit is so bad its almost like we give away half the PP time. At the very least this would make that full 2 minutes interesting.

I'd go with something like this

Hornqvist - Crosby - Perron
Letang - Martin
^^ let this unit develop structure and some set deflections

Bennett - Malkin - Kunitz
Poliout/Despres - Ehrhoff
^^ feed Malkin for one-timers

 

[cassius]

Penguins played passive physically the whole night - reminded me of the CBJ series. It was plain to see who was "wearing the pants".

No physical retaliation whatsoever - no willingness to go to bat for your teammmates. This team is charmin soft. If this play continues, get ready for another first round exit and a long off-season.

Lets face it: this team is built for the regular season, not the post-season. And what's disconcerting is that we are getting streamrolled even in the regular season.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Excpt you wouldn't because they didn't play soft last night.

True, some guys did battle last night:

Scuds, Downie, Farnham, Martin stood out on that front.

Guys who I saw no battle from include:
Spaling, Bennett, Sutter, Adams, Harrington, Accubello(won't bother looking up spelling since his play doesn't warrant it)

 

[Shady Machine]

For me I see two noticeable, possible reasons:

1) Everyone simply figured out what we were doing (much like you outline above) and Johnston/Tocchet can't come up with anything else. The timeline for the PP going gangbusters then flatlining seems to suggest it.

2) Hornqvist is more important than one may think. His injury was kinda sorta around the time they struggled I think, but I'd have to research that to know for sure.

Part of 1.) was the Pens randomly stopped getting PP's. Then it struggled so we tried to change. Malkin was on the left point to start the year when we were scoring at a ridiculous pace.

2.) Hornqvist is absolutely crucial to the success of this PP. The PP is set up to fire bombs with traffic in front. Kunitz is okay as a net front here and there, but Hornqvist didn't allow the goalie to ever see the puck. There are other issues on the PP, like standing still and other teams pressuring more, but getting Hornqvist back and shooting through traffic will fix a lot of the issues.

 

[billybudd]

It's been 2 months with the two best players in the league. Not executing is an argument that is rapidly losing validity for me.

It's been underachieving for large parts of 9 years with "the two best players in the league." Even when Gonchar was here, people had knives out for the PP coach. That's 3 different head coaches and 3 different assistants working at it. Maybe 1 or 2 of these guys are idiots, but certainly not all six.

Figuring out how to make a powerplay revolve around 2 left handed shots, 1 of which only scores from close range, is not easy. Perhaps not even possible. This is why Gonchar, Neal and Hornqvist were all the most-important players on it at one point or another, when it was working.

Plus Neal missed 23 games last year, not just the five he was suspended for.

What was the powerplay % in those 23 games? I'm guessing it was not good.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Penguins played passive physically the whole night - reminded me of the CBJ series.

No physical retaliation whatsoever - no willingness to go to bat for your teammmates. This team is charmin soft. If this play continues, get ready for another first round exit and a long off-season.

1. 31 credited hits (by an away arena scorekeeper no less), some quite big
2. Downie slashing and fighting Schenn
3. Didn't back down from fighting
4. Sill crosscheck to a guys head.

Yeah they sure ***** themselves and hid in the corner.

 

[Winger for Hire]

True, some guys did battle last night:

Scuds, Downie, Farnham, Martin stood out on that front.

Guys who I saw no battle from include:
Spaling, Bennett, Sutter, Adams, Harrington, Accubello(won't bother looking up spelling since his play doesn't warrant it)

Jesus, you just want the whole ******* roster throwing fists and banging bodies?

I still don't see how any of this matters in rearguards to last night's game or any of the games in the current losing skid. In none of those games did the Pens lose because they were out-toughed, physically dominated or anything of the sorts.

 

[MrBurghundy]

My point being is when you add character guys like BGL, Roberts, Ruutu, Asham, Rupp and Engo. It does help your skilled guys take care of their business so that they don't have to fight their own battles.

Because with those guys in the lineup our stars never had to worry about those things.

 

[AgentM]

I actually asked the question (twice) which was not answered. It seems to this admittedly untrained eye that the change in PP success came when other teams started challenging the puck carrier aggressively instead of hanging back, as we tend to do on the PK. The Pens seemingly have no answer for that.

I remember teams starting to pressure us and the PP dropping like a rock too. It's always worked against us because our players just stand still so they are easy to pressure. I don't understand the lack of movement on the PP, at this point doesn't it have to be the players fault? I mean I can't believe every coach since Mike Yeo has told them to do the same thing.