Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus - Pens vs. Flyers... embarrassing

[ColePens]

It is not just the PP, but other teams have aggressively challenged the Pens up and down the ice. Much more than earlier in the year, and much more than I see teams do in games other than ours.

It seems to be the book on how to counter MJ's system, and the Pens have not responded well at all. Yeah, we have been decimated with injuries and pure talent will beat that I suppose, but still it has to be system and a lack fo adjustments as well.

I think you are partially right but then again a lot of teams are just turning over to this new system because it's how you win NHL games.

I think that's more just how the NHL is turning. Chicago and LA do it. Rangers now do it. The Isles converted their system a couple years ago to do it. San Jose tries to do it. Columbus even tries to do it. Those are the few system that really stand out for having that pressure attack with pinching defense and forwards backtracking to the neutral to help out on defense.

It is tough to do. You better build your roster appropriate. I think part of it is to counter Pittsburgh but a lot of it is to just change the NHL landscape right now.

 

[Til the End of Time]

the core of this team is rotten and the fortunes of this organization wont change until they recognize and address it.

 

[shizno*]

the core of this team is rotten and the fortunes of this organization wont change until they recognize and address it.

We get it, you hate everything about the Penguins, let us go and move on already.

 

[billybudd]

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+32+33+34+45+46+63+67+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28

So here's the data on PP Goals for in 2014. Every player was on the ice for less goals/minute than Neal (other than Vitale, who probably had, like, six mintues). Which means that when he wasn't on the ice, the PP% probably dropped like a rock.

 

[MrBurghundy]

the core of this team is rotten and the fortunes of this organization wont change until they recognize and address it.

But with a horrible owner, how will they ever do that?

 

[Coastal Kev]

Because with those guys in the lineup our stars never had to worry about those things.

What's your answer then??? More PP goals???

FYI, I am not the only one who thought Sid's disappearance in the playoffs last year were a direct result of the physicality he took in both series. If we had a nasty group of forwards, they would be taking the physicality to those who target Sid and the rest of our skilled forwards. Imagine Staal getting run, shift after shift, think that changes his tune. I do. You disagree, bully for you. But that doesn't make me wrong.

And I don't care if the vast majority of this board disagrees with me, because time after time I have been proven right with unpopular opinions.

I was destroyed here for being critical of the Kunitz signing.

I was laughed at when I had the gall to question signing Scuderi.

I was told to leave these boards when I asked for Shero and DB to be fired after the Flyers series.

 

[MrBurghundy]

What's your answer then??? More PP goals???

FYI, I am not the only one who thought Sid's disappearance in the playoffs last year were a direct result of the physicality he took in both series. If we had a nasty group of forwards, they would be taking the physicality to those who target Sid and the rest of our skilled forwards. Imagine Staal getting run, shift after shift, think that changes his tune. I do. You disagree, bully for you. But that doesn't make me wrong.

And I don't care if the vast majority of this board disagrees with me, because time after time I have been proven right with unpopular opinions.

I was destroyed here for being critical of the Kunitz signing.

I was laughed at when I had the gall to question signing Scuderi.

I was told to leave these boards when I asked for Shero and DB to be fired after the Flyers series.

Way to really go out on a limb with some of those opinions. I bet NOBODY here agreed with them at all. Forgive me, you really are the great visionary of our time.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

True, some guys did battle last night:

Scuds, Downie, Farnham, Martin stood out on that front.

Guys who I saw no battle from include:
Spaling, Bennett, Sutter, Adams, Harrington, Accubello(won't bother looking up spelling since his play doesn't warrant it)

Spaling was in the middle of **** in front of the Philly net on a handful of occasions.
Adams had 5 hits and mucked it up after a whistle on 1 or two occasions. (Still hate him though)
Arcobello had 3 hits in 9 whole minutes as the smallest guy on the ice
Sutter is just never gonna be that guy.

I guess everyone needed at least a roughing penalty to pass your toughness test.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Way to really go out on a limb with some of those opinions. I bet NOBODY here agreed with them at all. Forgive me, you really are the great visionary of our time.

At the time, there were some here that agreed with me. But the majority of the board destroyed me for those opinions.

 

[Winger for Hire]

What's your answer then??? More PP goals???

FYI, I am not the only one who thought Sid's disappearance in the playoffs last year were a direct result of the physicality he took in both series. If we had a nasty group of forwards, they would be taking the physicality to those who target Sid and the rest of our skilled forwards. Imagine Staal getting run, shift after shift, think that changes his tune. I do. You disagree, bully for you. But that doesn't make me wrong.

And I don't care if the vast majority of this board disagrees with me, because time after time I have been proven right with unpopular opinions.

I was destroyed here for being critical of the Kunitz signing.

I was laughed at when I had the gall to question signing Scuderi.

I was told to leave these boards when I asked for Shero and DB to be fired after the Flyers series.

Granted I'm not a longtime contributor, but it doesn't seem like any of those were issues that you'd be in the low percentile with those opinions. And I refuse to believe there was a majority, even a vocal minority, touting the Scuds signing as a godsend.

You keep touting this way of playing and building a team... what players are there to fill these physical, NHL talent voids? Those kind of players aren't exactly a dime a dozen. Kane and Looch don't count as they're not coming here.

 

[Riptide]

Speaking of player managment is Malkin in MJ's doghouse for that Adams fight?

Average icetime since then (8 last games):
Crosby 19:56
Perron 18:48 (7 games only)
Sutter 18:18
Kunitz 17:58
Malkin 17:43

Fun fact: Malkin is third on team in +/- during that stretch (Spaling and Scuderi are ahead with +2) and just behind Goc with 51% on FO.

Fun fact 2: Adams averaged over 11 min a game in that span

2 questions for you. Where are you getting these stats, and how many PKs was Pittsburgh killing each game?

 

[Shwag33]

No. Neal was what made the whole thing work, insofar as it worked. He's so dangerous from the high slot that not over-playing him gets you scored on. This opened up passing lanes and bought a half-second here and there for Kunitz when the puck was in the low slot or crease. I'd venture a guess the Pens didn't score many PP goals while Neal was suspended.


As far as Tocchet's ideas not working, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see any strategic problem; it's just execution. And I don't think the Pens are that far from executing everything right.

What I see is ill timed shots that miss the net. Players on the same page. I swear we have more missed shots that clear the zone than anyone. If the opposing pointman is going to shoot, you should know before he actually does.... covering a potential clear on a missed shot.

No one looks like they know what others are going to do on the PP; especially the defense.

 

[Riptide]

Here is their average EV icetime in those 8 games:

Crosby 15.3 min
Perron 14.9 min
Malkin 14 min
Bennett 14 min
Kunitz 14 min
Sutter 12.3 min
Craig Adams 7.9

Doesn't look like he is being punished from that.

Sutter just gets the most PK minutes among forwards:

Sutter 3.1
Goc 2.8
Adams 2.7
Spaling 2.5

Add Sutter getting 2nd PP minutes, and there you have it.

Also, can Kunitz play there instead on the PP?

Thanks. I kinda assumed it would look like this. I did the same thing looked at the game against the Islanders(?) (when just looking at TOI).

 

[Coastal Kev]

Granted I'm not a longtime contributor, but it doesn't seem like any of those were issues that you'd be in the low percentile with those opinions. And I refuse to believe there was a majority, even a vocal minority, touting the Scuds signing as a godsend.

You keep touting this way of playing and building a team... what players are there to fill these physical, NHL talent voids? Those kind of players aren't exactly a dime a dozen. Kane and Looch don't count as they're not coming here.

Enjoy your reading and I accept your correction in advance.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1462799&highlight=scuderi

 

[billybudd]

What I see is ill timed shots that miss the net. Players on the same page. I swear we have more missed shots that clear the zone than anyone. If the opposing pointman is going to shoot, you should know before he actually does.... covering a potential clear on a missed shot.

No one looks like they know what others are going to do on the PP; especially the defense.

The wide shots. Yeah, that's a new problem, but it's fixable. Perron just needs to play wider when he thinks Geno's going to shoot (if Perron stays on the 1st PP when Hornqvist comes back). The "thinks Geno's going to shoot" might take some time to completely sort out.

That's a "don't know the guy yet" thing. You'll notice this wasn't a problem when Sid was in the left circle, though Sid was no shooting threat from there, like Perron is.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Enjoy your reading and I accept your correction in advance.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1462799&highlight=scuderi

Not enough conviction there to make me backtrack on my thoughts. It seems like out of the positive comments, about 3/4 of them said it was a good signing only if the signing was followed by a thinning of the defensive heard (trading one or both of Nisky/Brooks).

And a lot of the straight up positive reactions to the signing are a lot of posters that don't carry a lot of weight (not that I carry any more weight), or that I've even seen before.

Still, you've yet to answer my call for either a) all the teams that are loaded with grit and toughness and b) the players you'd want brought in to build the team in your image.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

They really need to simplify things on the pp. This team has issues with trying to be too cute and it is made worse with the extra space. Other teams are pressuring hard on the side boards and taking away the middle of the ice. The only way the Pens respond to this is by going to the point. I see other teams make it harder to pressure the side boards by using the man on the goal line. If the side boards get pressured I wish they would do one of two things.

1.) Put the puck on net low, even if the shot is from a poor angle. They are committing a pk'er out high to take away the sideboards, by shuffling the puck on net you create a rebound and you have an advantage in man power to capitalize on the rebound.

2.) Failing that, pass to the player on the goal line and have them attack the net. I see lots of teams do this. Particularly the Flyers do it a lot with Simmonds. It is smart. It is impossible to control the rebound from so close and the defenseman on that side is forced to commit to the player on the goaline which leaves the guy in the slot and the guy on the side boards free to crash for the rebound. As it is the player on the goaline on the Pens powerplay never attacks the net.

By doing those 2 simple things they would make it harder for teams to pressure the side boards and their pk is extended farther towards the goal line which could open up those cross-ice passes.

The other thing is the times when they give Sid lots of space on the side boards. He spends time looking for a pass that will never be available. Sometimes he forces a pass and turns it over. Sid needs to realize that they are taking away the pass and daring him to skate into the circle and let one rip. Sid needs to start obliging them. You can see the difference in how teams play Sid and Geno on the side boards. They pressure Geno because they don't want him to get a free shot. They back off Sid because they know he won't take the free shot and they wait for him to overthink things and make a stupid pass.

Those are the things I'd like to see on the pp.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Not enough conviction there to make me backtrack on my thoughts. It seems like out of the positive comments, about 3/4 of them said it was a good signing only if the signing was followed by a thinning of the defensive heard (trading one or both of Nisky/Brooks).

And a lot of the straight up positive reactions to the signing are a lot of posters that don't carry a lot of weight (not that I carry any more weight), or that I've even seen before.

Still, you've yet to answer my call for either a) all the teams that are loaded with grit and toughness and b) the players you'd want brought in to build the team in your image.

How many teams have 3 huge targets on their team?

It is known league wide to go after our big 3 and make them pay a huge physical toll as a formula for beating the Pens.

The question is what is the best way to counter this strategy.

My suggestion is to load up with physicality to surround our stars.

What is your strategy?

 

[The Old Master]

let the big three sit on the bench and play adams.

 

[Asuna]

They really need to simplify things on the pp. This team has issues with trying to be too cute and it is made worse with the extra space. Other teams are pressuring hard on the side boards and taking away the middle of the ice. The only way the Pens respond to this is by going to the point. I see other teams make it harder to pressure the side boards by using the man on the goal line. If the side boards get pressured I wish they would do one of two things.

1.) Put the puck on net low, even if the shot is from a poor angle. They are committing a pk'er out high to take away the sideboards, by shuffling the puck on net you create a rebound and you have an advantage in man power to capitalize on the rebound.

2.) Failing that, pass to the player on the goal line and have them attack the net. I see lots of teams do this. Particularly the Flyers do it a lot with Simmonds. It is smart. It is impossible to control the rebound from so close and the defenseman on that side is forced to commit to the player on the goaline which leaves the guy in the slot and the guy on the side boards free to crash for the rebound. As it is the player on the goaline on the Pens powerplay never attacks the net.

By doing those 2 simple things they would make it harder for teams to pressure the side boards and their pk is extended farther towards the goal line which could open up those cross-ice passes.

The other thing is the times when they give Sid lots of space on the side boards. He spends time looking for a pass that will never be available. Sometimes he forces a pass and turns it over. Sid needs to realize that they are taking away the pass and daring him to skate into the circle and let one rip. Sid needs to start obliging them. You can see the difference in how teams play Sid and Geno on the side boards. They pressure Geno because they don't want him to get a free shot. They back off Sid because they know he won't take the free shot and they wait for him to overthink things and make a stupid pass.

Those are the things I'd like to see on the pp.

Good post. Another thing I'd like to see more often, which I saw last night and I was pretty happy is the deflection from the slot play....I've seen that from the Flyers against the Pens way too many times.

 

[Shady Machine]

Enjoy your reading and I accept your correction in advance.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1462799&highlight=scuderi

The majority of people in favor of it were happy on the condition that Nisky and/or Orpik was traded. Also, I have read the first 6 pages of the thread and didn't see your vocal hatred of the signing. Please show me your wisdom.

 

[Shwag33]

The wide shots. Yeah, that's a new problem, but it's fixable. Perron just needs to play wider when he thinks Geno's going to shoot (if Perron stays on the 1st PP when Hornqvist comes back). The "thinks Geno's going to shoot" might take some time to completely sort out.

That's a "don't know the guy yet" thing. You'll notice this wasn't a problem when Sid was in the left circle, though Sid was no shooting threat from there, like Perron is.

Yeah good point, but I feel the entire PP is disjointed. No one knows what the other players are going to do. A lot of that I'm sure has to do with injuries.


I'm not a johnston basher and want to give him some time, but I wish he'd leave malkin/crosby out longer. The PP is dead without them. No one can even carry the puck in the zone.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The majority of people in favor of it were happy on the condition that Nisky and/or Orpik was traded. Also, I have read the first 6 pages of the thread and didn't see your vocal hatred of the signing. Please show me your wisdom.

Around Page 11 I got into the mix with this zinger:



Quote:


Originally Posted by Stad View Post

How do some Pens fans not like this signing?

He's old and getting older. Kunitz, Dupuis , Adams and Scuds, you thing you are winning a cup with these guys getting crusty? And they are all signed for multiple years!

 

[billybudd]

Yeah good point, but I feel the entire PP is disjointed. No one knows what the other players are going to do. A lot of that I'm sure has to do with injuries.


I'm not a johnston basher and want to give him some time, but I wish he'd leave malkin/crosby out longer. The PP is dead without them. No one can even carry the puck in the zone.

Not crazy about the "2 rush" thing, but it seems to be a new fad that's not unique to Johnston. Caps PP doesn't exist unless OV's on the ice, but Trotz/Rierden are pulling him off the ice after 2 rushes, just like we are.

 

[Winger for Hire]

How many teams have 3 huge targets on their team?

Chicago (Kane, Towes, Hosa, Keith), Washington (Ovie, Backstrom, Carlson, Green-ish), Rangers (Nash, St. Louis, Stephen) , Kings (Kopitar, Doughty, Gabby, Carter), Minnesota (Parise, Suter, Pominville, Koviou), Ducks (Perry, Getzlaf, Kessler), Toronto (JVR, Kessel, Phanuef), Detriot (Zetterburg, Datsuyk, Kronwall, Nyqvist), St Louis (Oshie, Tarasenko, Shattenkirk, Pieterangelo, Backes), Colorado (Duchene, Landy, RoR)... I can go on as almost every team has players who have targets on their backs.

It is known league wide to go after our big 3 and make them pay a huge physical toll as a formula for beating the Pens.

That's pretty much a formula for any team

The question is what is the best way to counter this strategy.

To do what the Pens did last night. Don't tuck your tails and run, but don't needlessly go toe to toe with them and match them PIM for PIM.

My suggestion is to load up with physicality to surround our stars.

What is your strategy?

To keep the course of what JR is doing. This team wasn't a 1 offseason fix. Shero left nothing in terms of good affordable talent to fill any forward position. The AHL was bare in terms of impact or checking talent. Now the Pens have 2 more Top 6 forwards than last season, tweeners who can move up and down the lineup, guys who belong in the NHL and the draft yielded guys who have future roles (not NCAA longshots and UDFA prayers).

It's going to take at least 1 more offseason to properly right the ship.

Still waiting to hear your soultion, besides getting tough with useless tough guys and
guys who won't ever be on the same ice as other team's scoring lines.