Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens start where they left off!! Right in the shitter.

[End of Line]

Game 1, not a lot of practice and no preseason games add in the new staff and players, Ill withhold judgment.

Where I’m at as well. I will say though, the McCann-Jankowski-Tanev line will be a pain in the ass for every other team in the division

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yup. Was stoked to get him. I've been so damn unimpressed

I dunno if I'd say unimpressed. He's paced... decently. But it's becoming more and more clear he isn't being deployed correctly.

He and Crosby had as many points in one shift together as this cattywampus line with Malkin has had in like 6 or 7 games or whatever.

Zucker's got 8 goals, 6 assists in 20 games as a Penguin. Not sure what your expectations were but I think most of us see him as a success story to this point. That's what...a 32 goal pace in a normal season? With no PP1 time?
We're comparing him with the likes of Perron's tenor here already? Seriously guys?

Maybe they should go back to what was working before and use him with Sid, rather than forcing him with Geno? All this because Sullivan has an established system where he has set pairs on all lines and is only willing to rotate the one who's not part of it. His pride gets in the way of so many potentially good decisions. He learned nothing from last year's successes.

I'm glad you agree with me.

The comparison with Perron extends only so far as "known very good player simply not fitting in... potentially."

And yes you are right that it has everything to do with these asinine "duos." It's like NHL coaches invent reason to be stupid and stubborn after so many years with the same team or something. Zucker and Crosby showed excellent chemistry and play a like-minded game. Guentzel and Malkin same thing. But that would make too much sense.

One game. Still very much up for assessment. But I didn't like the idea last play-in and I still don't like it now.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

.....uh, come again?

If we're talking physical ability and understanding of his position, then yes. I'll 100% stand by that. Angles are solid. Great puck mover. Legit glove. Very strong lateral pushes. Good at covering pucks quickly. Great rebound control. Handles contact very well. Doesn't swim around when he doesn't need to. Etc...

I like almost everything about his game. He's way more physically gifted than Murray. Totally different level of athlete.

His only roadblocks are focus/preparation. Unfortunately those were his bane yesterday. He has a history of not handling games that are snowballing and stopping the bleeding.

The only other guy I could think of with this talent level is Vokoun.

 

[TheGuiminator]

I’m confident this team can bounce back, unless Mike Sullivan is getting fired before it’s too late. I think he has overstayed his welcome at this point.

Don’t get me wrong, Sullivan has been good for this team and played a huge role getting the team back on track and winning back to back cups.

However, I’m not a fan of his coaching over the last few years : he constantly takes bad decisions, gets out-coached more often than not, makes weird line combos & defensive pairings, etc.

 

[SEALBound]

I don’t think it’s “commitment “ whatever that means or good parts needing to gel....because I think we see the same problems rearing their ugly heads over and over again..it’s part personnel and it’s part strategy:
1) we lose puck battles and position battles in front of the crease
2) individual players lose their man all the time in the D zone
3) we don’t know how to beat a trap and it seems our guys in the O zone have very little free space (opposing players on them tightly) to make plays, whereas opposing players are free regularly in our D zone
4) when we do have the puck, we treat it like a grenade and rarely hold on to make plays (which requires a willingness to be hit)
5) when we’re shooting, we’re often telegraphing that fact, I.e. the release isn’t quick enough and we’re not changing angles to get better lanes
6) we don’t shoot enough especially from the point, but that segues into another problem, which is we don’t consistently have bodies in front of the net to get dirty goals from the point shots
7) we don’t play together as five man units enough

these problems have been consistent enough over the last two years that you have to say the Pens are soff (somewhat personnel but more style of play,possibly commitment) and the coaching staff is an epic fail, whether because they don’t know how to solve these problems or because the team leaders are not listening to the message they’re trying to give.
Again, I’ll give them a few games but I see the storm clouds in the distance

This is actually not an unfair list of complaints. Nice work there Martin Luther.

 

[EightyOne]

Zucker's got 8 goals, 6 assists in 20 games as a Penguin. Not sure what your expectations were but I think most of us see him as a success story to this point. That's what...a 32 goal pace in a normal season? With no PP1 time?
We're comparing him with the likes of Perron's tenor here already? Seriously guys?

Maybe they should go back to what was working before and use him with Sid, rather than forcing him with Geno? All this because Sullivan has an established system where he has set pairs on all lines and is only willing to rotate the one who's not part of it. His pride gets in the way of so many potentially good decisions. He learned nothing from last year's successes.

He's driven so little and been riding sids coattails at best

 

[Empoleon8771]

If we're talking physical ability and understanding of his position, then yes. I'll 100% stand by that. Angles are solid. Great puck mover. Legit glove. Very strong lateral pushes. Good at covering pucks quickly. Great rebound control. Handles contact very well. Doesn't swim around when he doesn't need to. Etc...

I like almost everything about his game. He's way more physically gifted than Murray. Totally different level of athlete.

His only roadblocks are focus/preparation. Unfortunately those were his bane yesterday. He has a history of not handling games that are snowballing and stopping the bleeding.

The only other guy I could think of with this talent level is Vokoun.

Lol there is a 0% chance that Jarry is the most talented goalie the Penguins have ever had. That's just such a preposterous suggestion that I do not know how to respond to it. Just pure insanity.

There's not a legitimate argument for Jarry being more talented than Fleury. There's not a legitimate argument for Jarry being more talented than Barrasso. Jarry's a guy with 60 career NHL games and okay numbers overall, it is downright insanity to claim that he's more talented than either should be HOFers or future HOFers.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Lol there is a 0% chance that Jarry is the most talented goalie the Penguins have ever had. That's just such a preposterous suggestion that I do not know how to respond to it. Just pure insanity.

There's not a legitimate argument for Jarry being more talented than Fleury. There's not a legitimate argument for Jarry being more talented than Barrasso. Jarry's a guy with 60 career NHL games and okay numbers overall, it is downright insanity to claim that he's more talented than either should be HOFers or future HOFers.

This conversation has nothing to do with experience though. I'm talking about his god given ability as an athlete. He has tools Fleury doesn't.

I don't think it's insane at all. If you took an EA Sports /99 rating system for all applicable goaltending categories, he would have very high numbers. Agility, reflexes, positioning, strength, awareness etc... If it was rated by someone unbiased who really knew him as a goalie, it would be a glowing report.

That's all I'm talking about here. Once he solidifies himself as a starter and feels comfortable in that role, I expect big things from Jarry.

 

[EightyOne]

This is why they lost, positioning like this... For years now, no goalie is gonna do well facing this shit:

 

[The Old Master]

It doesn't matter how well the players you view as "solutions to fixing the team" play if the guys who you pay big bucks to perform don't perform.

Last night's loss was on guys like Jarry, Malkin, Rust and such more than any of the players JR acquired. Bitching about depth guys when your big guns are MIA just reeks of axe grinding.

we bitch about the things that are obvious to even the untrained, and half blind. because if we can see the error in that, we can only imagine the rest

 

[Empoleon8771]

This conversation has nothing to do with experience though. I'm talking about his god given ability as an athlete. He has tools Fleury doesn't.

I don't think it's insane at all. If you took an EA Sports /99 rating system for all applicable goaltending categories, he would have very high numbers. Agility, reflexes, positioning, strength, awareness etc... If it was rated by someone unbiased who really knew him as a goalie, it would be a glowing report.

That's all I'm talking about here. Once he solidifies himself as a starter and feels comfortable in that role, I expect big things from Jarry.

Fleury is and was one of the most athletic goalies of the last 30 years. His natural talents were so insane that he was a #1 draft pick in arguably the best draft of all time. Had Fleury not been rushed to the NHL and actually had a strong goalie coach to reign in his natural talents, he likely would have gone down as one of the best 5 goalies of this era.

Again, what you're saying right now is downright insanity. There's no other pay to put it. To seriously argue that Tristan Jarry, a guy who literally hasn't even proven he's a #1 goalie yet, is the most talented goalie the organization has ever had is downright nonsense. It's a moronic thing to say.

 

[SEALBound]

I'm glad you agree with me.

The comparison with Perron extends only so far as "known very good player simply not fitting in... potentially."

And yes you are right that it has everything to do with these asinine "duos." It's like NHL coaches invent reason to be stupid and stubborn after so many years with the same team or something. Zucker and Crosby showed excellent chemistry and play a like-minded game. Guentzel and Malkin same thing. But that would make too much sense.

One game. Still very much up for assessment. But I didn't like the idea last play-in and I still don't like it now.

You're really going to have to explain further because I'm not picking up what you're throwing down. First, how do you believe Zucker is not "fitting in"? Dude has 14pts in 20GP while showing chemistry and performance with both Sid and Geno. I'm not quite sure what he's done to show he's not fitting in.

Perron was normally a 40-50pt player, then he came to the Penguins and began producing at a 35-ish pt pace and you could see a lack of chemistry with both Sid and Geno. We also wanted to get more speed into the system at the cost of a slightly higher skill set.

Zucker displays the speed and skill we desired...basically a Perron+Hagelin player. He's shown chemistry with Sid and Geno both. He's produced and provided good analytics while doing it.

I don't get the comparison? Are you suggesting we trade Zucker like we did Perron? And if so...dear lord, for who? Who provides more of what we need than Zucker?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Fleury is and was one of the most athletic goalies of the last 30 years. His natural talents were so insane that he was a #1 draft pick in arguably the best draft of all time.

Again, what you're saying right now is downright insanity. There's no other pay to put it. To seriously argue that Tristan Jarry, a guy who literally hasn't even proven he's a #1 goalie yet, is the most talented goalie the organization has ever had is downright nonsense. It's a moronic thing to say.

You're not even responding to what I wrote about ratings and attributes, and just repeating yourself. Talking about experience again.

Fleury had massive athleticism yes, but he also had detractors that Jarry doesn't. He was overactive and lost his positioning a lot. A lot of swimming around. He didn't have the puck handling. He didn't have Jarry's rebound control. He used to get caught trying to play the puck when he shouldn't. Had a problem staying in the net.

Sure, Fleury was a great goalie for us. I don't think he's as well-rounded as Jarry though, especially when Jarry polishes his game.

Whether Jarry can effectively use his talent from this point on is up to him.

 

[EightyOne]

Naw there are no upgrades via trade

They need a team focus. There's enough skilled personnel to not be embarrassing on ice

 

[heysmilinstrange]

You're not even responding to what I wrote about ratings and attributes, and just repeating yourself. Talking about experience again.

Fleury had massive athleticism yes, but he also had detractors that Jarry doesn't. He was overactive and lost his positioning a lot. A lot of swimming around. He didn't have the puck handling. He didn't have Jarry's rebound control. He used to get caught trying to play the puck when he shouldn't. Had a problem staying in the net.

Sure, Fleury was a great goalie for us. I don't think he's as well-rounded as Jarry though, especially when Jarry polishes his game.

Whether Jarry can effectively use his talent from this point on is up to him.

But puckhandling and rebound control aren’t natural abilities. Jarry is better than Fleury at those things because he had many years in the minor league where he could refine those abilities.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This is why they lost, positioning like this... For years now, no goalie is gonna do well facing this shit:

View attachment 384192 View attachment 384193

So you're gonna screenshot everything and torch a guy for a bad day?

Everything seemed to be fine when Jarry was rolling into the All-Star game with a .935 though. Don't remember people ripping his positional flaws then.

 

[Andy99]

bingo...if the organization does not recognize this quickly, pass all the bs feel good rhetoric the results will be the same,

Sid and G have always preserved themselves at times and never go hard in the same game...as they get older that’s become more the norm. Unfortunately it’s really people like Rust and Jake who have to play hard 60 minutes and the ones who’ll determine that aspect of any game..that’s the point of surrounding them with speed I thought...

 

[EightyOne]

So you're gonna screenshot everything and torch a guy for a bad day?

Everything seemed to be fine when Jarry was rolling into the All-Star game with a .935 though. Don't remember people ripping his positional flaws then.

Lol wait what

I'm blaming the SKATERS who can't figure out how to play defensively

Jarry was either screened by his teammates collapsing like morons or left out to dry all night by himself as they were so out to lunch

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Lol wait what

I'm blaming the SKATERS who can't figure out how to play defensively

Jarry was either screened by his teammates collapsing like morons or left out to dry all night by himself as they were so out to lunch

K mb.

 

[EightyOne]

K mb.

I think only Empo is trying to tip over the Jarry bandwagon

 

[DesertPenguin]

This board is nigh unreadable after a loss until the next morning, when cooler and probably more sober heads prevail.

In the GDT we were all saying that the Pens were the better team through 2 periods. More zone time, more shots. Just need to overcome some goals on screened shots with nice tips that Jarry couldn't do anything about. Then the wheels fell off in the third and the narrative completely changes.

The Pens have new assistants, a bunch of new players, Guentzel is still getting all the way back and Kap is out. We have yet to witness the fully operational battle station. If they are bad 10 games in, I'll worry. For now, I'll take solace in the bottom 6 and especially the 3rd line looking legit, when there were fears Jankowski would be an empty sweater. Matheson looked good on offense and we knew the D side was going to be a work in progress so whatever. Jarry will be better with better structure in front if him, which will come with time and coaching. Ceci can be replaced internally right now. The top 6, once Kapanen gets in there, has all it needs on paper to really go. In the mean time everyone just chill.

 

[Gurglesons]

So you're gonna screenshot everything and torch a guy for a bad day?

Everything seemed to be fine when Jarry was rolling into the All-Star game with a .935 though. Don't remember people ripping his positional flaws then.

Then he proceeded to have just as bad a SV as Murray following it.

Jarry was the biggest question mark heading into this season. His first game wasn’t impressive. Hopefully it changes, but it’s funny to see the same fan base going out of their way to defend a career AHLer who had a few hot months after we ran Murray out of town. Not to say Murray was the solution here anymore, but the fact is we are very questionable at net.

Luckily so is every other team in our division outside of Boston.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Even though he took a penalty doing so, I liked that Matheson went after whoever was giving it to Geno.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Then he proceeded to have just as bad a SV as Murray following it.

Jarry was the biggest question mark heading into this season. His first game wasn’t impressive. Hopefully it changes, but it’s funny to see the same fan base going out of their way to defend a career AHLer who had a few hot months after we ran Murray out of town. Not to say Murray was the solution here anymore, but the fact is we are very questionable at net.

Luckily so is every other team in our division outside of Boston.

Yeah, it's kind of funny seeing some of the mental gymnastics from some to defend Jarry's performance considering the fact if that was Murray in nets letting in those goals, this entire PGT would be lambasting Murray for being *the biggest reason* the Pens lost last night.

The fact this PGT is about all the other issues, with Jarry's poor play kind of just being added as a secondary "and Jarry needs to be better, too" shows just how much of a whipping boy Murray became and got blamed literally every time he let in a couple of goals in a loss.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, it's kind of funny seeing some of the mental gymnastics from some to defend Jarry's performance considering the fact if that was Murray in nets letting in those goals, this entire PGT would be lambasting Murray for being *the biggest reason* the Pens lost last night.

The fact this PGT is about all the other issues, with Jarry's poor play kind of just being added as a secondary "and Jarry needs to be better, too" shows just how much of a whipping boy Murray became and got blamed literally every time he let in a couple of goals in a loss.

Jarry was good in the 1st and aside from the late minute goal solid in the 2nd. The 3rd I put on him though especially the two consecutive goals.