Confirmed with Link: COL trades Barrie(50% retained)/Kerfoot/2020 6th to TOR for Kadri/Rosen/2020 3rd

[Gatorbait19]

I mean I would say every successful team plays their players to their strengths and utilizes them in the most effective way possible. So Dubas acquiring Barrie really shows how much of a disconnect there is between him and Babcock because Dubas clearly sees something in Barrie that Babcock doesn’t see how or isn’t willing to.

TLDR; don’t acquire a player if you aren’t going to utilize him in a positive manner.

To me there’s a big difference between playing players properly/playing to their strengths, and crafting your team around the way a player plays. I think Babcock doesn’t play Barrie properly, but I also think that Bednar crafted our defense around Tyson and his strengths. For the majority of the 29 other teams, the result will be somewhere in the middle.

 

[flyfysher]

Serious questions for the board re: Tyson:

1. Is Tyson in the bottom 5% of all dmen in the league in terms of defensive ability?

2. If Tyson was a 25pt Dman (which is what he’s on pace for currently), is he an nhl caliber player?

I suspect the usual answers from the usual suspects on each side (myself included), but just curious about everyone’s thoughts.

1. No.

2. TB is not a 25 pt. D-man. He IS an NHL caliber player even if he is on pace for 25 pts. at present.

 

[The Abusement Park]

To me there’s a big difference between playing players properly/playing to their strengths, and crafting your team around the way a player plays. I think Babcock doesn’t play Barrie properly, but I also think that Bednar crafted our defense around Tyson and his strengths. For the majority of the 29 other teams, the result will be somewhere in the middle.

I mean the Leafs have the makeup of a team that can dominate puck possession and dominate everyone offensively, but have a coach that is more defensive in nature. And that’s where the clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock is.

I mean I don’t think it would be that difficult to utilize Barrie and Rielly effectively. You put Barrie on the top PP and use him in more offensive situations while Rielly is the EJ of that team where he plays the harder minutes. And if you don’t think you can use Rielly in those tough minutes and he needs prime offensive minutes to be truly effective than you shouldn’t go out and get Barrie.

 

[Pokecheque]

Even Ken goddamned Hitchcock would know how to properly deploy Tyson Barrie. He may not like it, but he would.

And Patrick Roy didn't appear to be thrilled with Barrie, but even he figured out what worked and what didn't pretty early on.

Honestly I have no idea what has entered Babcock's mind. It's almost like he's either daring the Leafs to fire him, or trying to get them to remove Dubas and replace him with Mark Hunter.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Even Ken goddamned Hitchcock would know how to properly deploy Tyson Barrie. He may not like it, but he would.

And Patrick Roy didn't appear to be thrilled with Barrie, but even he figured out what worked and what didn't pretty early on.

Honestly I have no idea what has entered Babcock's mind. It's almost like he's either daring the Leafs to fire him, or trying to get them to remove Dubas and replace him with Mark Hunter.

The dude only knows one way to coach. Part of it is on Dubas for bringing in the wrong player for his system, but Babcock has to adjust.

Like in the NFL, does Jim Harbaugh have Lamar Jackson dropping back In a traditional offence? No.

 

[Foppa2118]

Even Ken goddamned Hitchcock would know how to properly deploy Tyson Barrie. He may not like it, but he would.

And Patrick Roy didn't appear to be thrilled with Barrie, but even he figured out what worked and what didn't pretty early on.

Honestly I have no idea what has entered Babcock's mind. It's almost like he's either daring the Leafs to fire him, or trying to get them to remove Dubas and replace him with Mark Hunter.

He seems to have an eternal my way or the highway attitude about everything.

Different scenario obviously, but if he keeps unapologetically refusing to budge just out of principle, he's gonna find himself with the same pink colored slip Don Cherry got.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Echoes of Sandis Ozolinsh. There have always been players like Tyson Barrie, and there will only be more of them as the game gears itself more toward speed and offense. I don't think he's that hard of a player to figure out, or to build around. They just happen to have a coach who right now is going out of his way to go in a much different direction than his GM.

Oz wasn’t a very good defender, but he was better defensively than Tyson.

I agree Barrie isn’t hard to figure out, but don’t necessarily agree that he’s easy to build around. Barrie needs a specific type of partner, and you need to make sure the other 5 guys are solid enough defensively to make up for his deficiencies. At least 4 of those 5 guys (if not all 5) need to be able to play PK. You really can’t afford to have anyone with a similar or redundant skill set as Barrie or play rookies/inexperienced guys on your back end.

 

[The Merchant]

Demoted to the bottom pair now with Holl taking his place next to Muzzin. Newport needs to get him out immediately.

Such bullshit. Dude deserves a huge payday and now that's in jeopardy all thanks to his coach being the living embodiment of "OK, Boomer"

 

[Gatorbait19]

I mean the Leafs have the makeup of a team that can dominate puck possession and dominate everyone offensively, but have a coach that is more defensive in nature. And that’s where the clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock is.

I mean I don’t think it would be that difficult to utilize Barrie and Rielly effectively. You put Barrie on the top PP and use him in more offensive situations while Rielly is the EJ of that team where he plays the harder minutes. And if you don’t think you can use Rielly in those tough minutes and he needs prime offensive minutes to be truly effective than you shouldn’t go out and get Barrie.

I think the last line sums it up - they should never have gotten Barrie. There was no need to force the Barrie/Kadri trade for the leafs. They were bad defensively last year and got a player that had no chance of fixing their issues.

 

[Balthazar]

On Tyson Barrie:

55% of his starts coming in the offensive zone, this is a significant drop over the past two seasons, where the 28-year-old started in the opposition zone 62.4% and 64.1%.

 

[Pokecheque]

Oz wasn’t a very good defender, but he was better defensively than Tyson.

I agree Barrie isn’t hard to figure out, but don’t necessarily agree that he’s easy to build around. Barrie needs a specific type of partner, and you need to make sure the other 5 guys are solid enough defensively to make up for his deficiencies. At least 4 of those 5 guys (if not all 5) need to be able to play PK. You really can’t afford to have anyone with a similar or redundant skill set as Barrie or play rookies/inexperienced guys on your back end.

I don't think that's true at all. Ozo played in an era where it was easier to defend, the game was much slower, you were allowed to clutch and grab to your heart's content, and the Avs had Adam Foote, Patrick Roy, and Stephane Yelle cleaning up after his defensive miscues. There was absolutely nothing about his defensive game that was noticeably better than Barrie.

The notion that Barrie needs a "specific partner" is grossly exaggerated (again, just MHO). He excelled when paired with EJ, and still put up seriously good numbers with two boat anchors in Nick Holden and Nate Guenin alongside him. He also did great with Patrik Nemeth. One could argue Barrie has never had a more talented defensive partner than Jake Muzzin, yet something's not working. I don't think the issue is Muzzin, nor do I think it's Barrie. I think it's the coach. As someone on Twitter pointed out, Barrie also didn't do well with dump-and-chase Sacco either. Neither did EJ. Guess what happened with both players once Roy showed up and the shackles came off?

The guy IMO in Colorado who kinda needed a specific partner was John-Michael Liles. And they got that guy in Ryan O'Byrne...go figure, he had his second-best points total that season. And then they dealt him away and kept O'Byrne for some weird reason.

But I digress. I don't think Barrie is a hard guy to build around. You're focusing way too much on his play away from the puck, when really, it's his play with the puck that makes things easier. Because he's able to push play in the right direction, you don't have to worry as much about play in the defensive zone. A guy like, well, Ryan O'Byrne is a guy you have to gameplan more seriously around, because whenever he's on the ice you know the puck is going to be in the defensive zone for extended periods.

 

[Pokecheque]

On Tyson Barrie:

55% of his starts coming in the offensive zone, this is a significant drop over the past two seasons, where the 28-year-old started in the opposition zone 62.4% and 64.1%.

 

[AvsFan29]

On Tyson Barrie:

55% of his starts coming in the offensive zone, this is a significant drop over the past two seasons, where the 28-year-old started in the opposition zone 62.4% and 64.1%.

That 8-9% difference shouldn’t result in a 60%+ drop in production. He’s not playing with their big guns, and not playing PP1. He used to pass between Mackinnon and Rantanen, and now he’s barely getting any time with top players.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I think the last line sums it up - they should never have gotten Barrie. There was no need to force the Barrie/Kadri trade for the leafs. They were bad defensively last year and got a player that had no chance of fixing their issues.

I’m with @cgf in how I want my defense to work. If you have at least one good puck carrier per pairing it’s really easy to tilt the play in your favor and we saw that firsthand vs Calgary. Clearly that’s what Dubas thinks and I think adding another PMD wasn’t a bad idea, but as the GM he should know how the coach will set his team up and the way Barrie has been treated in TO isn’t great.

 

[Balthazar]

That 8-9% difference shouldn’t result in a 60%+ drop in production. He’s not playing with their big guns, and not playing PP1. He used to pass between Mackinnon and Rantanen, and now he’s barely getting any time with top players.

He's basically getting Girard's PP time.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I think there’s a lot of reasons the Leafs are struggling this year, but do you think they are missing Kadri more than they thought they would?

 

[cgf]

I don't think that's true at all. Ozo played in an era where it was easier to defend, the game was much slower, you were allowed to clutch and grab to your heart's content, and the Avs had Adam Foote, Patrick Roy, and Stephane Yelle cleaning up after his defensive miscues. There was absolutely nothing about his defensive game that was noticeably better than Barrie.

The notion that Barrie needs a "specific partner" is grossly exaggerated (again, just MHO). He excelled when paired with EJ, and still put up seriously good numbers with two boat anchors in Nick Holden and Nate Guenin alongside him. He also did great with Patrik Nemeth. One could argue Barrie has never had a more talented defensive partner than Jake Muzzin, yet something's not working. I don't think the issue is Muzzin, nor do I think it's Barrie. I think it's the coach. As someone on Twitter pointed out, Barrie also didn't do well with dump-and-chase Sacco either. Neither did EJ. Guess what happened with both players once Roy showed up and the shackles came off?

The guy IMO in Colorado who kinda needed a specific partner was John-Michael Liles. And they got that guy in Ryan O'Byrne...go figure, he had his second-best points total that season. And then they dealt him away and kept O'Byrne for some weird reason.

But I digress. I don't think Barrie is a hard guy to build around. You're focusing way too much on his play away from the puck, when really, it's his play with the puck that makes things easier. Because he's able to push play in the right direction, you don't have to worry as much about play in the defensive zone. A guy like, well, Ryan O'Byrne is a guy you have to gameplan more seriously around, because whenever he's on the ice you know the puck is going to be in the defensive zone for extended periods.

So what you're saying is that if Toronto just brought the General in to partner with Tyson, he could point them towards success?...

Makes sense that Tyson is struggling without someone giving his play a sense of direction...

 

[Pokecheque]

So what you're saying is that if Toronto just brought the General in to partner with Tyson, he could point them towards success?...

Makes sense that Tyson is struggling without someone giving his play some direction...

I could only imagine the orgasm Babcock would have if Dubas went and got him THE GENERAL.

Cue the Vince McMahon falling backwards GIF...

 

[Nostradumbass]

I think there’s a lot of reasons the Leafs are struggling this year, but do you think they are missing Kadri more than they thought they would?

Yes, Kadri was the only player capable of going head-to-head against opposing top lines and coming out ahead. Oilers dreaded him matching up against McDavid.

 

[Balthazar]

I don't think Barrie is a hard guy to build around.

The fact that he just can't adjust to Babcock's meat and potato hockey says otherwise.

I like your Ferrari comparison: it's luxury and you gotta baby it, put high octane gas and bend over backwards to keep it running or its completely useless. We were feeding 64% o-zone start to our "1st pairing defenseman"

 

[cgf]

I mean the Leafs have the makeup of a team that can dominate puck possession and dominate everyone offensively, but have a coach that is more defensive in nature. And that’s where the clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock is.

I mean I don’t think it would be that difficult to utilize Barrie and Rielly effectively. You put Barrie on the top PP and use him in more offensive situations while Rielly is the EJ of that team where he plays the harder minutes. And if you don’t think you can use Rielly in those tough minutes and he needs prime offensive minutes to be truly effective than you shouldn’t go out and get Barrie.

This, so much this. Dubas built one military and Babs is running another (to borrow a phrase from my favorite ever TED talk). That roster should be playing in the opposing zone, dominating the puck and putting teams on their heels with their skill, but not according to babs...

 

[The Abusement Park]

The fact that he just can't adjust to Babcock's meat and potato hockey says otherwise.

I like your Ferrari comparison: it's luxury and you gotta baby it, put high octane gas and bend over backwards to keep it running or its completely useless. We were feeding 64% o-zone start to our "1st pairing defenseman"

Because he’s very good offensively.

Not a big surprise.

 

[cgf]

I could only imagine the orgasm Babcock would have if Dubas went and got him THE GENERAL.

Cue the Vince McMahon falling backwards GIF...

He really would be the perfect Babcock player. Handles the puck like a grenade and couldn't skate into the offensive zone even if he wanted to, it's like Babs got to make-a-player in real life...

 

[Gatorbait19]

I don't think that's true at all. Ozo played in an era where it was easier to defend, the game was much slower, you were allowed to clutch and grab to your heart's content, and the Avs had Adam Foote, Patrick Roy, and Stephane Yelle cleaning up after his defensive miscues. There was absolutely nothing about his defensive game that was noticeably better than Barrie.

The notion that Barrie needs a "specific partner" is grossly exaggerated (again, just MHO). He excelled when paired with EJ, and still put up seriously good numbers with two boat anchors in Nick Holden and Nate Guenin alongside him. He also did great with Patrik Nemeth. One could argue Barrie has never had a more talented defensive partner than Jake Muzzin, yet something's not working. I don't think the issue is Muzzin, nor do I think it's Barrie. I think it's the coach. As someone on Twitter pointed out, Barrie also didn't do well with dump-and-chase Sacco either. Neither did EJ. Guess what happened with both players once Roy showed up and the shackles came off?

The guy IMO in Colorado who kinda needed a specific partner was John-Michael Liles. And they got that guy in Ryan O'Byrne...go figure, he had his second-best points total that season. And then they dealt him away and kept O'Byrne for some weird reason.

But I digress. I don't think Barrie is a hard guy to build around. You're focusing way too much on his play away from the puck, when really, it's his play with the puck that makes things easier. Because he's able to push play in the right direction, you don't have to worry as much about play in the defensive zone. A guy like, well, Ryan O'Byrne is a guy you have to gameplan more seriously around, because whenever he's on the ice you know the puck is going to be in the defensive zone for extended periods.

It’s tough to compare across generations, but I do think Oz was better defensively (not good just better than tyson) and had a big size advantage on Tyson, which counts for something.

Maybe the specific partner aspect wasn’t the best way to phrase it, but he needs to be paired with the right guy (although yes everyone does).

I’m not saying Babs isn’t misusing him, he is. But for Babs, I can understand wanting to give the best/most important offensive minutes to Rielly, who’s better than Barrie both offensively and defensively.

 

[cgf]

Because he’s very good offensively.

Not a big surprise.

You say this as though Karlsson could ever be a #1 without learning how to PK.