Confirmed with Link: COL trades Barrie(50% retained)/Kerfoot/2020 6th to TOR for Kadri/Rosen/2020 3rd

[The Abusement Park]

You say this as though Karlsson could ever be a #1 without learning how to PK.

Same with Makar :/

 

[Pokecheque]

I like your Ferrari comparison: it's luxury and you gotta baby it, put high octane gas and bend over backwards to keep it running or its completely useless. We were feeding 64% o-zone start to our "1st pairing defenseman"

Who said he was ever a first-pairing defenseman? Only time I can recall that is when EJ went down with injury and he and Big Z anchored the defense...and succeeded. It's been pretty much agreed upon that he's an ideal #3. A guy you don't necessarily want to take on the opposition's best, but you can deploy in situations where his puckmoving skills benefit the team.

Oh, I should point out that noted two-way players Daniel and Henrik Sedin didn't establish themselves as stars until THEY were deployed almost exclusively in the attacking zone and got tons of power play time. Just because a player can't just be thrown into any ol' situation per the coach's whims doesn't mean he's not good. Babcock still coaches like he still has Pavel Datsyuk and Nicklas Lidstrom on his roster. THOSE guys you could use anywhere, any time. Alas...Tyson Barrie ain't quite that.

The fact that he just can't adjust to Babcock's meat and potato hockey says otherwise.

I don't buy that argument for a second. That's like saying it's Nathan MacKinnon's fault if Jared Bednar decides to start using him as a shutdown center tomorrow. His game is well-established, warts and all. Dubas addressed the need for a fast, dynamic, puckmoving RHD with the best guy available. And now Babcock is acting like he never wanted that guy to begin with. The failure to adapt isn't Barrie's it's the guy who still thinks it's 2002 and is too arrogant with his one Stanley Cup win and World Cup/Olympic golds (where he also misused players egregiously but it didn't matter since those rosters were insanely stacked) to listen to anyone.

 

[Gatorbait19]

I’m with @cgf in how I want my defense to work. If you have at least one good puck carrier per pairing it’s really easy to tilt the play in your favor and we saw that firsthand vs Calgary. Clearly that’s what Dubas thinks and I think adding another PMD wasn’t a bad idea, but as the GM he should know how the coach will set his team up and the way Barrie has been treated in TO isn’t great.

The thing is, I agree 100%. That’s exactly what I want too. I just believe that a guy like Girard is much more valuable than Tyson because of Tyson’s defensive issues.

 

[Pokecheque]

I’m not saying Babs isn’t misusing him, he is. But for Babs, I can understand wanting to give the best/most important offensive minutes to Rielly, who’s better than Barrie both offensively and defensively.

And he should be using Rielly more (except on the power play, but that's debatable). Rielly is a legit top pairing defender, Barrie should be a 2nd pairing guy. Thing is, Babs was so ridiculously stubborn about his power play units...he had quite possibly the most talented top power play unit in the frickin' league (Rielly/Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Kadri) and insisted last season they play for only one minute and come off....no matter what. Why? I don't know, he apparently felt the dire need to see Patrick Marleau go out there in the 2nd half of the man-advantage and fail to do anything of consequence. So Dubas goes out and gets another weapon to anchor a capable 2nd unit...but now Babs doesn't do that anymore (reportedly, I'm not 100% certain there). What a yutz.

In any event, it's not really the minutes usage that has me irritated, it's the fact that Babs insists that his defenders stay back and throw long-bomb passes instead of jumping into the play whenever possible, and we all know that's not one of Barrie's strengths. His passing is not elite. It's good...but Cale Makar and Sam Girard are already superior to him in that regard. Barrie's game is built around jumping into the play, carrying the puck through traffic and creating offense, and also getting the puck through traffic with shots from the point. Again, even Ken Hitchcock would know better than to do that, and Patrick Roy did as well. Babcock is his own worst enemy. To paraphase the film Titanic, he's got decades of experience working against him.

 

[The Abusement Park]

The thing is, I agree 100%. That’s exactly what I want too. I just believe that a guy like Girard is much more valuable than Tyson because of Tyson’s defensive issues.

But you can use them together in a very effective manner. So why wouldn’t you?

It’s not Girard or Barrie or Rielly or Barrie. It’s not hard to utilize multiple defenseman who are good with the puck.

 

[cgf]

Same with Makar :/

aka the reason why Timmins was always the better prospect

 

[cgf]

[snip]
To paraphase the film Titanic, he's got decades of experience working against him.

My god is that a perfect description of Babs

 

[klozge]

Serious questions for the board re: Tyson:

1. Is Tyson in the bottom 5% of all dmen in the league in terms of defensive ability?

2. If Tyson was a 25pt Dman (which is what he’s on pace for currently), is he an nhl caliber player?

I suspect the usual answers from the usual suspects on each side (myself included), but just curious about everyone’s thoughts.

1. Ability? No. He never was great defensively but he once was okay and I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be able to return to this former way of playing. He slowed down a bit but with a bit of adjustment it should still be possible. Performance? Possibly.
2. I won't answer that because Barrie isn't a 25 point dman. Even if there wasn't a Babcock the whole transition from Colorado, the team he got drafted by and he was the superstar dman on, to Toronto, the so called hockey mecca, just has to be difficult. Then add Babcock and you get what we're seeing now.

 

[MarkT]

Serious questions for the board re: Tyson:

1. Is Tyson in the bottom 5% of all dmen in the league in terms of defensive ability?

2. If Tyson was a 25pt Dman (which is what he’s on pace for currently), is he an nhl caliber player?

I suspect the usual answers from the usual suspects on each side (myself included), but just curious about everyone’s thoughts.

1. I don't think anyone here is qualified to answer this unless there are people here who literally watch significant numbers of games for every single team. I've never thought was good defensively, and he was frequently the worst on the Avs during his tenure.

2. Probably not, given even when he was producing more than double that I thought he often flirted with not being a net positive player for us. Barrie's defensive play is often so poor that he needs to be elite offensively to make up for it. Luckily for us, he often was.

Overall I think there's so justice in the fact that he's going to get less money that he expected. Defensemen who put up points (and aren't good defensively) are heavily overvalued in terms of what they actually contribute to the team. If salaries were fair, a great shut down guy with limited offensive skills would make just as much as guys like Barrie. The only defensemen who should be making huge money are the guys who can both shut down opposing forwards and put up points.

 

[S E P H]

Serious questions for the board re: Tyson:

1. Is Tyson in the bottom 5% of all dmen in the league in terms of defensive ability?

2. If Tyson was a 25pt Dman (which is what he’s on pace for currently), is he an nhl caliber player?

I suspect the usual answers from the usual suspects on each side (myself included), but just curious about everyone’s thoughts.

1. No, but I would say he's bottom 10% for sure.

2. Ehhhhh, yes he is. There are defenders getting less points than him and are in the NHL, so yes and as others have mentioned one season doesn't determine a lads career.

One bad season does not negate the fact that he's been one of the most consistent and productive defensemen in the league since 2013-14. I think something else will give before he runs completely aground this season though. Either he gets dealt or Babs will finally get the axe, but something will take place where he finds himself in a better position.

I would say that Barrie is probably the biggest pros vs cons defender in the league and the two biggest reasons why is because he is terrible defensively and he is as streaky as they come. As I said in the past when he was on our team, I can handle his defensive mistakes when he's productive out there and putting up points. When he isn't getting on the scoreboard, then his mistakes get amplified by a thousand percent and looks noticeably bad.

That's why I think Babcock has doubled down on him, he had a run where he wasn't scoring and when he's not scoring his mistakes get magnified. Seeing all those mistakes - which we can say is a regular part of his game due to how risky he likes to play - eventually lead him to lose ice time. He also isn't doing himself any favours when he plays as bad as he did against the Penguins over the weekend.

The other aspect is his streakiness as a player, where one week he looks like a tyre-fire ECHL cailbre and then follows that up with two weeks of Norris candidate plays. I wouldn't label this as a negative as he's always been a streaky player, it is in his DNA, and that's where I say that babcock is probably the worst single coach for him in the league. Babcock wants as consistent players as possible and how guys like Hyman find their way into the top 6 regardless if they have a noticeable lack of talent or not.

 

[Pokecheque]

I would say that Barrie is probably the biggest pros vs cons defender in the league and the two biggest reasons why is because he is terrible defensively and he is as streaky as they come. As I said in the past when he was on our team, I can handle his defensive mistakes when he's productive out there and putting up points. When he isn't getting on the scoreboard, then his mistakes get amplified by a thousand percent and looks noticeably bad.

That's why I think Babcock has doubled down on him, he had a run where he wasn't scoring and when he's not scoring his mistakes get magnified. Seeing all those mistakes - which we can say is a regular part of his game due to how risky he likes to play - eventually lead him to lose ice time. He also isn't doing himself any favours when he plays as bad as he did against the Penguins over the weekend.

The other aspect is his streakiness as a player, where one week he looks like a tyre-fire ECHL cailbre and then follows that up with two weeks of Norris candidate plays. I wouldn't label this as a negative as he's always been a streaky player, it is in his DNA, and that's where I say that babcock is probably the worst single coach for him in the league. Babcock wants as consistent players as possible and how guys like Hyman find their way into the top 6 regardless if they have a noticeable lack of talent or not.

Babcock doesn't want consistent players, he wants "safe" players. Predictable players. Undynamic players. He is the most risk-averse coach in the league. He wants as low-event hockey as possible. Even if your narrative here is correct and he's frustrated with Barrie's ups and downs, the absolute worst thing to do is to hamstring him even further and punish him, wilting away what little confidence he may have had left. That's not all on Barrie in that case. That's bad coaching.

And quit with the histrionics. Poor as Barrie has been he has not been ECHL-caliber. We get it. You don't like him.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Watch this horrible season lead to Barrie coming back on a team friendly contract so he can play with his best buddy again...but as a forward.

Barrie-MacKinnon-Rantanen.

 

[Avs_19]

I feel like some people don't realize how bad Barrie plays. They just assume he's not producing because of Babcock's style but he's really, really bad.

I think most people do realize what's going on and it doesn't just have to be one thing. I said as much the other day when I called his lack of production unacceptable regardless of his usage. It's a combination of him playing poorly, coaching, and some bad luck mixed in. The situation is just getting worse so the best thing for him is probably to go elsewhere.

I could only imagine the orgasm Babcock would have if Dubas went and got him THE GENERAL.

Cue the Vince McMahon falling backwards GIF...

You know Babcock would run up and down the street celebrating if he could trade Barrie straight up for Roman Polak.

 

[S E P H]

Babcock doesn't want consistent players, he wants "safe" players. Predictable players. Undynamic players. He is the most risk-averse coach in the league. He wants as low-event hockey as possible. Even if your narrative here is correct and he's frustrated with Barrie's ups and downs, the absolute worst thing to do is to hamstring him even further and punish him, wilting away what little confidence he may have had left. That's not all on Barrie in that case. That's bad coaching.

And quit with the histrionics. Poor as Barrie has been he has not been ECHL-caliber. We get it. You don't like him.

Safe is probably the more accurate word, but I got my point across when I mentioned Hyman getting to play alongside with Matthews or even Auston's ice time. He's gotta be one of the most underplayed stars in the league quite easily. I agree that he wants low-event risk-averse coach, it could explain how his entire system is built on "positional interference". I mentioned in the Part II of this thread, which we should probably be using as we're on post #2312 (lol) of this trade that coaches that do this are limiting themselves and why Bednar is actually a good coach considering all things. He tends to allow players to play their games and people not named Zadorov rarely are found in the dog-house for a long time or even at all.

For the record, don't think I am trying to justify Babcock, I don't think he's a good coach nor do I think he is a good person either...just trying to understand what's going through Mike's head. Not that Mike Commodore is a good person thinking one bloke ruined his rest of career, but I think there is some truth in what he mentions about Mike. My main argument is that I think we're far beyond Babcock being solely the problem here. Do I think he destroyed Barrie's confidence as a player? Absolutely and that is big part why, but Barrie shouldn't go unscathed here and a reason why is because people on HFAvs overrated his ability. His defensive ability, his powerplay ability, and his passing ability as the main three.

There are no histrionics being played here, ECHL level is a hot-take and I admit to, but assuming my thoughts that I don't like him is asinine. Don't get me wrong there is a part of me that is glad he is gone and his weekly bi-polar episodes of looking amazing and looking terrible. However, he is still a very good offensive player stuck in a bad situation, I feel for him because nobody is doing him any favours including himself as a UFA looking to secure his future. Due to all the negative combinations we've discussed, he's playing his way out of a couple million and that is significant for him later on in life.

 

[henchman21]

Barrie has always started slow and even when he's put up numbers, he's never looked good for 10-15 games to start a season. Always been him as a player. The last 60 games, he tends to play really well. I wouldn't say he's playing well at all right now and his play is certainly contributing to the situation. It is a bit of a perfect storm though... a coach that doesn't like risky players and won't play to a player's strengths, with a big media market, and a player that is typically a slow starter and plays a risky game. It is just a poor situation all around for all parties. You'd hope that Babcock would bend, but he's about the most stubborn coach there is and seems like he'd rather be canned than adapt to his team. If Toronto doesn't can Babcock and fairly soon, I don't think Barrie stands a chance at fully recovering. He won't end up with only 20-25 points sort fo bad, but 35 would be about where I'd see it land. He certainly won't re-sign there if Babcock is around. If Dubas can get Shanny on board with firing Babcock, and they get a more modern coach, I could still see Barrie having a great second half. Crossing 50 points is probably out of the cards, but showing he can succeed to finish the season probably would allow him to reclaim his currently lost value.

 

[Balthazar]

If Babcock is fired it's Sheldon Keefe's team. There's not even an interview process. They have been paying him NHL money to stay in the AHL and not accept any offer from any other team. They promised him the Leafs a while ago.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

If Babcock is fired it's Sheldon Keefe's team. There's not even an interview process. They have been paying him NHL money to stay in the AHL and not accept any offer from any other team. They promised him the Leafs a while ago.

Hopefully they stick with Babcock until after our game on Sat. A chance of coach before our game could give them a boost.

 

[Pokecheque]

If Babcock is fired it's Sheldon Keefe's team. There's not even an interview process. They have been paying him NHL money to stay in the AHL and not accept any offer from any other team. They promised him the Leafs a while ago.

And that's why they need to pull the trigger now. I'm sure it's in Shanahan's head that they'd give Babs one last shot and if he won, they'd keep him. If not, they'd move on and promote Keefe. But if you're already prepared to move on from Babcock, then you just need to f***ing do it. Not firing Babs in the offseason was a huge mistake.

What will be fascinating is where Babs will end up. I'm guessing it'll be Nashville because of course it'll be a goddamned Central rival...and in all honesty I could see that one working.

 

[Gatorbait19]

1. I don't think anyone here is qualified to answer this unless there are people here who literally watch significant numbers of games for every single team. I've never thought was good defensively, and he was frequently the worst on the Avs during his tenure.

2. Probably not, given even when he was producing more than double that I thought he often flirted with not being a net positive player for us. Barrie's defensive play is often so poor that he needs to be elite offensively to make up for it. Luckily for us, he often was.

Overall I think there's so justice in the fact that he's going to get less money that he expected. Defensemen who put up points (and aren't good defensively) are heavily overvalued in terms of what they actually contribute to the team. If salaries were fair, a great shut down guy with limited offensive skills would make just as much as guys like Barrie. The only defensemen who should be making huge money are the guys who can both shut down opposing forwards and put up points.

Agree with all the above. It’s tough to know exactly where Barrie falls when there’s so much movement (call ups etc) with 3rd pairings. I feel like the Barrie’s offensive production, however elite it is/can be, isn’t worth the defensive liability, especially as it relates to his contract. I would much rather have a guy that puts up 20-40 pts and can be relied upon in his own end, than a guy that you can only give offensive zone starts at PP time to.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

What did Commodore say?

 

[Gatorbait19]

Watch this horrible season lead to Barrie coming back on a team friendly contract so he can play with his best buddy again...but as a forward.

Barrie-MacKinnon-Rantanen.

It’s honestly getting close to the point where if Barrie doesn’t turn it around, he may have to consider signing a 1 yr deal, building his value back up, and trying for his big payday in the following offseason.

 

[Balthazar]

What did Commodore say?

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

If Barrie was a LHD, I’d probably want the Avs to pick him up as a rental. That’d be funny as hell, too.

 

[Pokecheque]

Funny that people keep bringing up Larry Murphy when talking about Makar's rookie year thus far. There's another guy the Leafies and their fans couldn't wait to get rid of, and after they did he promptly went to Detroit and won two Stanley Cups. I imagine if things continue to implode this badly with Barrie he'll move onto a different franchise and get his revenge somehow...hopefully not at the Avs' expense.

 

[Iceberg]

Funny that people keep bringing up Larry Murphy when talking about Makar's rookie year thus far. There's another guy the Leafies and their fans couldn't wait to get rid of, and after they did he promptly went to Detroit and won two Stanley Cups. I imagine if things continue to implode this badly with Barrie he'll move onto a different franchise and get his revenge somehow...hopefully not at the Avs' expense.

That will be Jake Gardiner winning the Stanley Cup, not Barrie.