Confirmed with Link: [COL/ARI] Avs Acquire G D.Kuemper($1m ret.) for D C.Timmins + 2022 COL 1st + 2024 COL 3rd(cond.)

[Balthazar]

 

[henchman21]

Kuemper has missed 50 games the past 2 seasons for injury. 58 over the past 3.

Grubauer has missed 26 games due to injury the past two seasons (2 games due to covid this year not included). No games missed due to injury in 20-21 nor 18-19.

 

[The Kingslayer]

IMO... for the price the Avs paid in the trade, pay a bit more and get Gibson. Yeah costs more in assets and cap, but he's locked in at a rate you can build around. If Kuemper is healthy next season, his cap will be right in between Grubi and Gibson anyway. It is a one year sort of situation. Plus, just get rid of Compher for the cap issues. The cap can be worked around and we've seen many times, no deal is unmovable.

If you just signed Grubi to the 6x6ish deal, the same 1st + Timmins could have been used to get DeBrusk to get the 'cheap' forward for a year.

This is what I wanted. I like Kuemper but if you are willing to pay that much just go a little further to get someone better with less question marks. Im fine with Kuemper but I would have rather they went in on Gibson or pay the same price for Elvis.

 

[Pokecheque]

Timmins isn’t a good skater and doesn’t do PK. Love his puck skills and passing instincts, but he was far from ideal as a 3rd pair guy on a team loaded with excellent puck moving D ahead of him.

Barron has passed him as a prospect and Helleson is a better fit for the bottom pair role. Sucks to trade so much but let’s be honest about Timmins poor fit on this Avs team.

I’d rather have the 1G.

That's an odd thing to ding Timmins on. The only reason Timmins didn't kill penalties is because Bednar chose not to use him there. Doesn't mean he can't do it. I'm fairly confident in saying he'd be more effective there than either Graves or Nemeth.

Barron has absolutely NOT passed him as a prospect yet. You don't pass anyone with 7 pro games unless your name is Cale Makar.

Timmins was a perfectly good fit for the team, my only concern about him is the potential for future long term injury. But then again the entire goddamned Avs blueline is one giant IR list waiting to happen, so...

 

[Pokecheque]

IMO... for the price the Avs paid in the trade, pay a bit more and get Gibson. Yeah costs more in assets and cap, but he's locked in at a rate you can build around. If Kuemper is healthy next season, his cap will be right in between Grubi and Gibson anyway. It is a one year sort of situation. Plus, just get rid of Compher for the cap issues. The cap can be worked around and we've seen many times, no deal is unmovable.

If you just signed Grubi to the 6x6ish deal, the same 1st + Timmins could have been used to get DeBrusk to get the 'cheap' forward for a year.

That assumes two very big things. One, that Gibson is available in the first place. If indeed they're in the mix for Eichel, the answer to that is most definitely NO. Also, Murray has been notorious for "rebuilding" and also holding onto veteran players he should instead flip.

The other thing assumed is that Gibson is still elite. Judging by his numbers this last season, that answer is also no. He's just as, if not more injury prone than Kuemper, and those injuries appear to be taking a toll.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Given the rumored price Edmonton is going to give up for Korpisalo makes me a lot happier about this deal tbh. Especially if Edmonton hadn't been dummies and came in last minute upping the price, a 1st for Kuemper 1 for 1 would have been a great trade IMO. Losing Timmins is what hurts but Edmonton forced our hand on that.


If it was between Korpi/Timmy for us as well like it is Edmonton I'm glad we paid a bit more to get Kuemper. I think behind our defense he could put up better numbers then Gruby.


I'd especially love to see Sakic get Kuemper extended for 2-3 years right now in the 5M range, that would make the trade great.

 

[Muffin]

That's an odd thing to ding Timmins on. The only reason Timmins didn't kill penalties is because Bednar chose not to use him there. Doesn't mean he can't do it. I'm fairly confident in saying he'd be more effective there than either Graves or Nemeth.

Barron has absolutely NOT passed him as a prospect yet. You don't pass anyone with 7 pro games unless your name is Cale Makar.

Timmins was a perfectly good fit for the team, my only concern about him is the potential for future long term injury. But then again the entire goddamned Avs blueline is one giant IR list waiting to happen, so...

Can’t say I watched any of his AHL games but based on his stats alone I think he’s very close to being NHL ready, he could make the team with a good camp.

Toews-Makar
Girard-Barron
Byram-EJ

Dream pairing with prefect LH-RH:

 

[McJedi]

That's an odd thing to ding Timmins on. The only reason Timmins didn't kill penalties is because Bednar chose not to use him there. Doesn't mean he can't do it. I'm fairly confident in saying he'd be more effective there than either Graves or Nemeth.

Barron has absolutely NOT passed him as a prospect yet. You don't pass anyone with 7 pro games unless your name is Cale Makar.

Timmins was a perfectly good fit for the team, my only concern about him is the potential for future long term injury. But then again the entire goddamned Avs blueline is one giant IR list waiting to happen, so...

You’d be confident saying that after Bednar played Makar and Girard at PK over Timmins?

better than Graves? What? PK was the one thing Graves did really well because he was big and a very willing shot blocker and had a very long, quick and active stick. And finally got mean in front of the net a year after he and Cole were such pu*** doing that in the Bubble. Graves couldn’t pass ish but his PK work was something the Avs are really gonna miss. I can’t name something Timmins did well and we can’t replicate, but every time he took a hit, my heart sank.

I don’t know where you’re coming up with that thesis but seems like thin air.

nemeth I’ll give you. That guys was absolute garbage. Sakic and Bednar made two massive mistakes trading for him and then playing him over Byram… or MacDonald. Big reason why the Avs season ended so early. Ian Cole’s play was an abomination in the Bubble. Nemeths was somehow worse at year later.

 

[Pokecheque]

You’d be confident saying that after Bednar played Makar and Girard at PK over Timmins?

better than Graves? What? PK was the one thing Graves did really well because he was big and a very willing shot blocker and had a very long, quick and active stick. And got mean in front of the net after he and Cole were such pu*** doing that in the Bubble. Graves couldn’t pass ish but his PK work was something the Avs are really gonna miss. I can’t name something Timmins did well and we can’t replicate, but every time he took a hit, my heart sank.

I don’t know where you’re coming up with that thesis but seems like thin air.

nemeth I’ll give you. That guys was absolute garbage. Sakic and Bednar made two massive mistakes trading for him and then playing him over Byram… or MacDonald. Big reason why the Avs season ended so early.

You're asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is whether or not YOU are so confident that Conor Timmins cannot kill penalties even though he's had a grand total of 34 games of regular season NHL experience the last two years. Is he some PK ace? I don't know, but you don't know either. It's just silly to say he can't kill penalties. We don't know yet, he hasn't really been tried there yet. Tyson Jost was never regularly used as a PK forward his first couple years in the league. So by that measure is he no good at killing penalties?

Just because Graves PK'd a lot doesn't mean he was really good at it. He wasn't good at blocking shots and he wasn't good at puck retrieval, nor was he good at clearing the puck consistently the few times he did clear the puck. Toews and Makar were far superior in that department. And I'll just keep saying this: Graves actually WAS really good at killing penalties before the coaches messed with him and turned him into a wannabe shot blocker.

 

[henchman21]

That assumes two very big things. One, that Gibson is available in the first place. If indeed they're in the mix for Eichel, the answer to that is most definitely NO. Also, Murray has been notorious for "rebuilding" and also holding onto veteran players he should instead flip.

The other thing assumed is that Gibson is still elite. Judging by his numbers this last season, that answer is also no. He's just as, if not more injury prone than Kuemper, and those injuries appear to be taking a toll.

Assumption #1... Gibson has been available for 18 months and is still available. Expensive, but available.

If you break deeper into the numbers, Gibson looks a lot better than just pure SV% and GAA. He hasn't had elite numbers, but dig in.

Injuries are legit on Gibson, more legit of a worry than Grubauer actually... but still a different level than Kuemper. I've tried to display this in different ways, but I don't think people really understand exactly how bad Kuemper's injuries have been. The guy has been out for 50 games in the past 2 seasons due to injury. 58 in 3. Gibson, in his whole NHL career has missed 68 games. You take out the big groin injury that started his career in 2014. Since Jan 1 2015, he has missed 47 games. Grubauer has missed 27 games in his NHL career. Kuemper in the last two seasons has missed more than Gibson since 2015. Kuemper this season missed 22 games, 5 away from Grubauer's NHL career.

 

[McJedi]

You're asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is whether or not YOU are so confident that Conor Timmins cannot kill penalties even though he's had a grand total of 34 games of regular season NHL experience the last two years. Is he some PK ace? I don't know, but you don't know either. It's just silly to say he can't kill penalties. We don't know yet, he hasn't really been tried there yet. Tyson Jost was never regularly used as a PK forward his first couple years in the league. So by that measure is he no good at killing penalties?

Just because Graves PK'd a lot doesn't mean he was really good at it. He wasn't good at blocking shots and he wasn't good at puck retrieval, nor was he good at clearing the puck consistently the few times he did clear the puck. Toews and Makar were far superior in that department. And I'll just keep saying this: Graves actually WAS really good at killing penalties before the coaches messed with him and turned him into a wannabe shot blocker.

Graves was mediocre with the puck on his stick including icing it. Dude was a reckless shot blocker and bless his heart for putting his face in danger several times. PK was excellent this season and Graves was our top PK guy by ice time and role. Avs still haven’t replaced that and EJ?.. yikes. I hope he can stay healthy but yikes.

Bednar absolutely overplayed Girard and Makar this year. Really hurt the team as Girard looked beat to snot by the time playoffs rolled around. Yet he refused to play Timmins on PK. Jost did get some PK time in prior seasons but Bednar has this stupid thing for “vets” so lesser players like Nieto got Pk time and performed meh in that roll. Plug a better player like Jost in and Pk improved a lot.

Bednar has some real blind spots and old school tendencies as a coach. Like tapping guys like Nemeth on the shoulder regardless of his poor and reckless play or not.

Maybe Timmins will be good at it. He’s got far superior puck skills to Graves. But he doesn’t have much bite to his game and we’re all terrified of his next concussion.

 

[dahrougem2]

You’d be confident saying that after Bednar played Makar and Girard at PK over Timmins?

better than Graves? What? PK was the one thing Graves did really well because he was big and a very willing shot blocker and had a very long, quick and active stick. And finally got mean in front of the net a year after he and Cole were such pu*** doing that in the Bubble. Graves couldn’t pass ish but his PK work was something the Avs are really gonna miss. I can’t name something Timmins did well and we can’t replicate, but every time he took a hit, my heart sank.

I don’t know where you’re coming up with that thesis but seems like thin air.

nemeth I’ll give you. That guys was absolute garbage. Sakic and Bednar made two massive mistakes trading for him and then playing him over Byram… or MacDonald. Big reason why the Avs season ended so early. Ian Cole’s play was an abomination in the Bubble. Nemeths was somehow worse at year later.

I couldn't disagree with you more on Ryan Graves. Yes, he's a willing shot blocker but his stick was not active and not good, his puck retrieval and board battles were abysmal and he was baby soft in front of the net.

Nothing about Ryan Graves says "good penalty killer."

Bednar used him there because Erik Johnson was hurt, Ian Cole was traded, Samuel Girard is small and Cale Makar shouldn't be killing penalties.

 

[dahrougem2]

Assumption #1... Gibson has been available for 18 months and is still available. Expensive, but available.

If you break deeper into the numbers, Gibson looks a lot better than just pure SV% and GAA. He hasn't had elite numbers, but dig in.

Injuries are legit on Gibson, more legit of a worry than Grubauer actually... but still a different level than Kuemper. I've tried to display this in different ways, but I don't think people really understand exactly how bad Kuemper's injuries have been. The guy has been out for 50 games in the past 2 seasons due to injury. 58 in 3. Gibson, in his whole NHL career has missed 68 games. You take out the big groin injury that started his career in 2014. Since Jan 1 2015, he has missed 47 games. Grubauer has missed 27 games in his NHL career. Kuemper in the last two seasons has missed more than Gibson since 2015. Kuemper this season missed 22 games, 5 away from Grubauer's NHL career.

It's the biggest concern for sure. The best thing the Avs can hope for is Francouz to be 100% ready and to give them a 47/35 sort of split, and make damn sure Kuemper doesn't touch a single back-to-back.

 

[McJedi]

I couldn't disagree with you more on Ryan Graves. Yes, he's a willing shot blocker but his stick was not active and not good, his puck retrieval and board battles were abysmal and he was baby soft in front of the net.

Nothing about Ryan Graves says "good penalty killer."

Bednar used him there because Erik Johnson was hurt, Ian Cole was traded, Samuel Girard is small and Cale Makar shouldn't be killing penalties.

Bull. Graves was routinely deflecting passes. He was great at it. Also obstructing passing lanes. Avs PK was top 10 and he was the key ingredient (along with Grubs). There are just several irrational bozo fans that got on him for everything he did. a strange whiny obsession. Haters need a whipping boy. N

dude was limited as to his ability with the puck on his stick. His offensive IQ is low. But he could kill a penalty far better than Cole or Girard. We’ll kiss him. Have to again overpay Toews. Byram better step up. He’s so good I think he can.

Graves was worth every penny of his $3.15mm AAv and why the Avs got the equivalent of two 2nds for trading him sans retention.

 

[dahrougem2]

Bull. Graves was routinely deflecting passes. He was great at it. Also obstructing passing lanes. Avs PK was top 10 and he was the key ingredient (along with Grubs). There are just several irrational bozo fans that got on him for everything he did. a strange whiny obsession.

dude was limited as to his ability with the puck on his stick. His offensive IQ is low. But he could kill a penalty far better than Cole or Girard. We’ll kiss him. Have to again overpay Toews. Byram better step up. He’s so good I think he can.

Graves was worth every penny of his $3.15mm AAv and why the Avs got the equivalent of two 2nds for trading him sans retention.

No, he wasn't a key reason for it. Grubauer was the key reason for it, because he patched up all the holes on our leaky PK.

Ryan Graves is many things, a good penalty killer he is not.

 

[McJedi]

No, he wasn't a key reason for it. Grubauer was the key reason for it, because he patched up all the holes on our leaky PK.

Ryan Graves is many things, a good penalty killer he is not.

Grubs had a pretty easy job. Avs were amazing at shot suppression and limiting high danger chances. I like grubs, he’s so consistent, but any goalie damn well better have good stats behind a team defense that was so good. Graves was part of that. A pretty big part. A good penalty killer, willing shot blocker with active long stick. He is. He very much is.

grubs is in for a rougher ride next season. Oh boy.

 

[Avsfan1921]

So here's a question, if you HAD to choose one of these trades, which do you take?

1st, Timmins for Kuemper
1st, Barron for Kuemper
1st, Newhook for Gibson
1st, Byram for Gibson
Assuming the same 15% or whatever was retained on all deals?

 

[henchman21]

Grubi didn't face a ton of big time chances, but he was downright elite at stopping the high danger stuff. Especially on the PK. He was .917 on HDSV%. Zero goalies that played 20 games last year were over .867 there. The difference in Grubi's numbers year over year were more about how well he played on the PK compared to previous years. 5v5, ES were roughly the same, but he had a major jump in PK effectiveness that caused the rest of his numbers to jump. Now he didn't face many high danger shots or chances, but when they were there, he made the save a lot.

 

[henchman21]

So here's a question, if you HAD to choose one of these trades, which do you take?

1st, Timmins for Kuemper
1st, Barron for Kuemper
1st, Newhook for Gibson
1st, Byram for Gibson
Assuming the same 15% or whatever was retained on all deals?

1st Newhook for Gibson

 

[The Abusement Park]

So here's a question, if you HAD to choose one of these trades, which do you take?

1st, Timmins for Kuemper
1st, Barron for Kuemper
1st, Newhook for Gibson
1st, Byram for Gibson
Assuming the same 15% or whatever was retained on all deals?

1st and Newhook quite easily. 2nd in line would be 1st and Byram for Gibson.

 

[Avsfan1921]

1st Newhook for Gibson

Interesting. Personally I would likely lean that way as well as I don't view Newhook as more than a 2nd line winger in his prime and I like the security of term that Gibson offers.

I will say though that talentwise, I don't mind the trade we made for Kuemper as I'm not very high on Timmins either. The sole concern I have is Kuempers health. If he plays well and needs a contract, there will be money to slightly overpay if needed, unlike this year with Grubaur.

 

[Avsfan1921]

1st and Newhook quite easily. 2nd in line would be 1st and Byram for Gibson.

For me, that is the last trade I'd make as I value Byram quite a bit more than any prospect we have and view him as our only true blue chipper. I believe he will outperform anything Timmins has done quite handily from Game 1 next season. I just don't view the talent level between the goalies to be enough of a gap to consider moving Byram. The risk of Byram being vastly superior to Timmins outweighs the injury concerns for me to consider this trade over the others.

 

[henchman21]

Interesting. Personally I would likely lean that way as well as I don't view Newhook as more than a 2nd line winger in his prime and I like the security of term that Gibson offers.

I will say though that talentwise, I don't mind the trade we made for Kuemper as I'm not very high on Timmins either. The sole concern I have is Kuempers health. If he plays well and needs a contract, there will be money to slightly overpay if needed, unlike this year with Grubaur.

There is money now to have afforded Grubauer at 5.9. With Jost signed at 2, LOC, Barron, and Newhook in the NHL. That gives the Avs ~4m in room with 12F 7D 2G. Take Grubi's extra 2.4 and the Avs still have 1.6 for a forward. Bite the bullet and move Compher, more room. Avs could have afforded Grubi as his contract. They just chose not to.

 

[Avsfan1921]

There is money now to have afforded Grubauer at 5.9. With Jost signed at 2, LOC, Barron, and Newhook in the NHL. That gives the Avs ~4m in room with 12F 7D 2G. Take Grubi's extra 2.4 and the Avs still have 1.6 for a forward. Bite the bullet and move Compher, more room. Avs could have afforded Grubi as his contract. They just chose not to.

Technically yes there was room, but it would have damaged the room for depth even more. I'm in the camp that would have made that signing but I fully understand managements hesitation to do so.

Failing to move Compher has been the biggest blunder of the offseason to date in my eyes but there is still hope that it will get done.

 

[henchman21]

Technically yes there was room, but it would have damaged the room for depth even more. I'm in the camp that would have made that signing but I fully understand managements hesitation to do so.

Failing to move Compher has been the biggest blunder of the offseason to date in my eyes but there is still hope that it will get done.

Avs aren't really using that money, and there are ways to manage and correct this. This will be a continual issue for the team and failure to pay UFAs that leave will result in a heavier reliance on drafting and trades. The Avs are not organizationally deep enough to continue to go into the trade well. They are also not a good enough drafting team to supplement depth consistently.