TSN: Cody Ceci + Hapur + Luchuk (and pick) for Zeitsev + Brown + Carcone PART TWO

[Pierre from Orleans]

Are you sure? People don't like face punchers on here, you could be ostracized for those opinions.

Chris Neil has been a fan favorite in this organization

 

[stempniaksen]

Are you sure? People don't like face punchers on here, you could be ostracized for those opinions.

Having an opinion isn't a bad thing. Completely ignoring all empirical evidence tossed your way to help fit some kind of pre-determined narrative absolutely is.

You trumpeted about the big bad Blue Jackets, and were then proven wrong when stats pointed out that Tampa was a much more physical team in the regular season.

You trumpet about the Big Bad Bruins, who were one of the least physical playoff teams (based on the regular season stats) who are also chalk full of the "smurfs" you tend to hate (but you constantly ignore that as well).

Liking big players is fine, discounting every player who is < 6'1 isn't. It makes people second guess everything you have to say, because in regards to this one aspect of a hockey player, you let your biases cloud better judgement.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Are you sure? People don't like face punchers on here, you could be ostracized for those opinions.

The persecution is so real. No one even wants to give Don Cherry for the Cups he didn't win.

 

[aragorn]

Chris Neil has been a fan favorite in this organization

By those who liked that kind of hockey but he was also on here, or don't you remember?

 

[BatherSeason]

By those who liked that kind of hockey but he was also on here, or don't you remember?

I think everyone loved Chris Neil and what he brought to the team when he was physically able to keep up with his peers. When he became older and too slow to keep up with the rest of the league, he took too many needless penalties and was a detriment to the team when he was on the ice.

 

[aragorn]

Having an opinion isn't a bad thing. Completely ignoring all empirical evidence tossed your way to help fit some kind of pre-determined narrative absolutely is.

You trumpeted about the big bad Blue Jackets, and were then proven wrong when stats pointed out that Tampa was a much more physical team in the regular season.

You trumpet about the Big Bad Bruins, who were one of the least physical playoff teams (based on the regular season stats) who are also chalk full of the "smurfs" you tend to hate (but you constantly ignore that as well).

Liking big players is fine, discounting every player who is < 6'1 isn't. It makes people second guess everything you have to say, because in regards to this one aspect of a hockey player, you let your biases cloud better judgement.

Didn't Columbus beat Tampa in the playoffs where it counts? Didn't the Bruins end up in the finals against St Louis? You like the players you do & I'll like the players I do. And I would like to see them build a much tougher team & I don't see that happening with the players they are acquiring.

The persecution is so real. No one even wants to give Don Cherry for the Cups he didn't win.

I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Didn't Columbus beat Tampa in the playoffs where it counts? Didn't the Bruins end up in the finals against St Louis? You like the players you do & I'll like the players I do. And I would like to see them build a much tougher team & I don't see that happening with the players they are acquiring.


I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

Columbus DID beat Tampa in the playoffs but I think you're missing the point. His point was that by all measrable stats Tampa was in fact a more physical team than Columbus.

 

[aragorn]

I think everyone loved Chris Neil and what he brought to the team when he was physically able to keep up with his peers. When he became older and too slow to keep up with the rest of the league, he took too many needless penalties and was a detriment to the team when he was on the ice.

Except when they needed a tough guy to neutralize Tanner Glass. Apparently GB had no one else on the team that could do that as Glass who isn't a very tough guy was dominating the Sens. And GB embarrassingly had to go back to the old man Neil to take care of something he never thought would happen in the NHL again.

 

[aragorn]

Columbus DID beat Tampa in the playoffs but I think you're missing the point. His point was that by all measrable stats Tampa was in fact a more physical team than Columbus.

I think your missing the point, Columbus beat Tampa in the playoffs when it's the most important time of the yr to win games, not the regular season.

 

[stempniaksen]

I think your missing the point, Columbus beat Tampa in the playoffs when it's the most important time of the yr to win games, not the regular season.

The less physical team beat the more physical team. You literally made up this whole "Big bad BJ's" angle, when that wasn't the reason they won. You are taking some made up notion and attributing it to Columbus' win.

You're a great poster around here when you don't get caught up in the whole "BIG is better" debates. You often make great points about size and grit that no one can take seriously because of your built in biases. I actually like big players too, have for as long as I can remember, I just happen to like other attributes as well. You may not attribute that as being a personal bias of mine (even though it is) based on the fact I don't harp on it every second post.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I think your missing the point, Columbus beat Tampa in the playoffs when it's the most important time of the yr to win games, not the regular season.

So they played better hockey. There was no physical intimidation even though Columbus was rolling out bruisers like Duchene, Dzingel, Panarin, Atkinson and Bjorkstrand up front. Let's not forget the goonery they had on defense in 18 PIM guy Zack Werenski or the savage Seth Jones with his 28 PIMs. David Savard is lucky he hasn't been given a lifetime ban after leading their defense with 36 PIMs on the season.

Columbus won over Tampa because they played better team defense and their skilled players showed up. That series had nothting to with big, tough players. At all.

 

[MiscBrah]

If you look at it from the perspective of having the worst team in the league for the lowest possible salary, these moves actually make sense. EM rips the leafs D, proceeds to hire the leafs d-coach, then signs and trades for their worst defencemen. Seems like they want to guarantee they have the best chance at the #1OA pick next draft.

 

[aragorn]

So they played better hockey. There was no physical intimidation even though Columbus was rolling out bruisers like Duchene, Dzingel, Panarin, Atkinson and Bjorkstrand up front. Let's not forget the goonery they had on defense in 18 PIM guy Zack Werenski or the savage Seth Jones with his 28 PIMs. David Savard is lucky he hasn't been given a lifetime ban after leading their defense with 36 PIMs on the season.

Columbus won over Tampa because they played better team defense and their skilled players showed up. That series had nothting to with big, tough players. At all.

Really? What about what Anderson brought to the Jackets? What about Dubois, Foligno & Jenner, not to mention great goaltending when they needed it most? I would love to have Seth Jones & Savard on this defence over Hainsey & Jones over Zaitsev, the others I could care less about, I'm not a Duchene fan at all.

 

[stempniaksen]

Really? What about what Anderson brought to the Jackets? What about Dubois, Foligno & Jenner, not to mention great goaltending when they needed it most? I would love to have Seth Jones & Savard on this defence over Hainsey & Jones over Zaitsev, the others I could care less about, I'm not a Duchene fan at all.

It takes all types to build a team, that's literally the point.

 

[aragorn]

It takes all types to build a team, that's literally the point.

I've said that many times & IMO we have too many small soft players & need more tougher players with skill. Ott needs to find more young Wayne Simmons type of players who can contribute in many ways all over the ice.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Really? What about what Anderson brought to the Jackets? What about Dubois, Foligno & Jenner, not to mention great goaltending when they needed it most? I would love to have Seth Jones & Savard on this defence over Hainsey & Jones over Zaitsev, the others I could care less about, I'm not a Duchene fan at all.

Who wouldn't rather have Jones and Savard over Hainsey (who IS big and physical) and Zaitsev (who does hit quite a bit)? They are much better hockey players. No tougher, but better.

How about we look at Calgary who had Tkachuk, Neal, Giordano, Hamonic, Bennett, Hathaway, Prout, etc. on their team and still got trounced by the puny Nathan Mackinnon, a soft Finn, some Swedes and a defense that is rife with tiny players? DId the Flames toughness not show up for the playoffs?

 

[aragorn]

Who wouldn't rather have Jones and Savard over Hainsey (who IS big and physical) and Zaitsev (who does hit quite a bit)? They are much better hockey players. No tougher, but better.

How about we look at Calgary who had Tkachuk, Neal, Giordano, Hamonic, Bennett, Hathaway, Prout, etc. on their team and still got trounced by the puny Nathan Mackinnon, a soft Finn, some Swedes and a defense that is rife with tiny players? DId the Flames toughness not show up for the playoffs?

But had no goaltending. Teams absolutely need good goaltending in the playoffs to move on.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Except when they needed a tough guy to neutralize Tanner Glass. Apparently GB had no one else on the team that could do that as Glass who isn't a very tough guy was dominating the Sens. And GB embarrassingly had to go back to the old man Neil to take care of something he never thought would happen in the NHL again.

Where is Tanner Glass now? What is he doing for his team?

I think the importance of pure "face punchers" as you put it has diminished to the point where it has become a waste of a roster spot.

 

[Mr Hat]

I've said that many times & IMO we have too many small soft players & need more tougher players with skill. Ott needs to find more young Wayne Simmons type of players who can contribute in many ways all over the ice.

Big skilled players are not a common commodity. If you keep taking chances with Wayne Simmonds style players you are going to end up with more busts or long term projects because they take the most time to know what you really have. Average sized skilled guys are easier to see linear development.

It's more common for a skilled player to get coached into being more physical and relentless on the puck. It's much harder to teach a big guy with average hands how to score goals. Look at Pajaarvi for example, didn't work out as a scorer but he's a capable grinder now.

 

[ottawah]

Probably going to be the unpopular post of the day here, but I'm going to bet that Ceci is way better in Toronto than he was here.

I've maintained that coaching and trying to fit him into a system he clearly has no affinity for were a significant roadblock on Ceci. I think Toronto will actually use him in a way that compliments the few things he does pretty well.

All this said, I'm not saying Ceci is going to be GREAT in Toronto. Let's not get crazy, the guy still has his obvious warts. All I'm saying is that based on how he was used here and how they will use him there, that he'll be better there than he was here with us over the past 2 years.

At first I also thought this was a great move for Ceci, he would be the likely #1 RHD on Toronto and be played more to his strengths rather than his weaknesses as they did in Ottawa. Then Toronto picked up Barrie and all those thoughts went out the window.

Regardless, this is still a better spot for Ceci. With Barrie and Reilly the top pairing, that will leave Ceci with Muzzin as the shutdown pairing. Muzzin is a heck of a lot more solid than anything Ceci has had to play with in this role, and with a stronger forward core (although that did take a hit losing Kadri), a lot of the excuses are gone. He is still likely to be miscast, but with a lot stronger team around him, there will be better help, less defensive zone starts, and likely a small reduction in minutes. Time for him either to show what he can do in the role, or turn into a NHL journeyman.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

But had no goaltending. Teams absolutely need good goaltending in the playoffs to move on.

Mike Smith was Calgary's best player in the playoffs last year. Giordano got absolutely wrecked by MacKinnon and company.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Except when they needed a tough guy to neutralize Tanner Glass. Apparently GB had no one else on the team that could do that as Glass who isn't a very tough guy was dominating the Sens. And GB embarrassingly had to go back to the old man Neil to take care of something he never thought would happen in the NHL again.

Wait a minute, wasn't Ben Harpur, the guy you have been vouching for supposed to handle Glass after he went after Turris? Wasn't he just standing there while Turris was getting roughed up?

 

[stempniaksen]

But had no goaltending. Teams absolutely need good goaltending in the playoffs to move on.

Smith was (surprisingly) the best Flame in the playoffs. This seems like another case where you've made up your mind ahead of time and are stretching the truth to fit into the narrative you've created.

You honestly could have pointed to Gaudreau and been right (and it would fit your small = bad narrative as well).

 

[aragorn]

Smith was (surprisingly) the best Flame in the playoffs. This seems like another case where you've made up your mind ahead of time and are stretching the truth to fit into the narrative you've created.

You honestly could have pointed to Gaudreau and been right (and it would fit your small = bad narrative as well).

I have been arguing this point for over a decade, I haven't just arrived at it. I don't like soft hockey, I prefer a tougher team & a tougher style of play & we don't get that with soft players.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I have been arguing this point for over a decade, I haven't just arrived at it. I don't like soft hockey, I prefer a tougher team & a tougher style of play & we don't get that with soft players.

Your arguments have no logic though. You keep making things up that didn't happen. Just on this page you fabricated so much BS, it's hard to take you seriously. You said Don Chdrry won a Cup in an appeal to authority logical fallacy. You said Columbus beat Tampa under a false premise. Tampa was the bigger, more physical team all season then Columbus went and had a 50% PP in a four game series. Then you said Calgary lost not because of goaltending which was also 100% false.

Then you're kicking and screaming about this non existant narrative that Ottawa drafts lots of small, soft skilled players when in the recent decades Ottawa has probably targeted big physical players more than almost any team in the league. Dorion has consistently been targeting less skilled players in favour of "character" ever since he took over and it's made this team into one of the worst in NHL history. We were one of the biggest teams in the NHL last season and we were by far and away the worst.