Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread

[LowLefty]

Maybe he coddles his players a bit too much, but you see examples of what happens when he doesn't. Primadonna players like Trouba and Laine want out because they don't get what they want and they're asked to do things for the good of the team over their own personal benefit. You can find examples of that all over the league because players have more leverage than ever.

I agree with all of this -
Players hold all the cards - even though the team has some control over the contract, the player will work toward an end goal that allows them to do what they want.
The Jets need to be concerned about this more than others with our rep of being a less than desirable location (it is what it is).

IMO, if you have a player that is perceived to be not pulling their weight, you need to be careful how you deal with it - especially on a winning team and with a player that is providing solid numbers. Regardless of the other factors that contribute to why the team is winning or how the player is racking up numbers - the argument is tricky when you have less ground to stand on. Add to that the value of the contract and the production return - in Mark's case, this is even more lop sided.

There are two sides to every story - the Jets need to be careful how they handle top talent.
This will frustrate fans -

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I'd say that Maurice understands that the hammer should be the last resort and that players in this day and age respond much better to positive reinforcement and coaching.

It's exactly the methodology progressive companies use with their employees.

For all the talk about Maurice being a dinosaur I actually see a guy who tries to stay up to date and forward thinking.

Sorry, this doesnt fly. Name a progressive company that strives for higher performance via total inconsistency between communicating expectations and management action to associated outcomes.

If I am Scheif I am still wondering why my play earned the bench (albeit for a very short time - wasnt a real benching) for a shift that I have been called a team leader for countless times in the last 2 seasons.

 

[bustamente]

Coach benches star player, coach loses room, losses pile up, coach gets fired, not saying that is happening here but it's a story that has repeated many times in sports.

 

[surixon]

I agree with all of this -
Players hold all the cards - even though the team has some control over the contract, the player will work toward an end goal that allows them to do what they want.
The Jets need to be concerned about this more than others with our rep of being a less than desirable location (it is what it is).

IMO, if you have a player that is perceived to be not pulling their weight, you need to be careful how you deal with it - especially on a winning team and with a player that is providing solid numbers. Regardless of the other factors that contribute to why the team is winning or how the player is racking up numbers - the argument is tricky when you have less ground to stand on. Add to that the value of the contract and the production return - in Mark's case, this is even more lop sided.

There are two sides to every story - the Jets need to be careful how they handle top talent.
This will frustrate fans -

This is where the other room leaders need to pull Mark aside and have a conversation with him.

 

[JetsUK]

That’s what is frustrating. We have a ton of talent but we either don’t play a system to take advantage of it, or don’t press them hard enough to play with urgency or don’t play them where they deserve in the lineup or simply let them sit in the press box.

I honestly don’t know how Chevy is ok with any of these decisions.

What a waste of talent.

I am honestly unsure as to how much sway Chevy holds in these decisions. Chipman is all in on Maurice, org seems to be run as an owner/GM/HC team, with joint input in things like personnel, but perhaps not so much joint input on roster deployment, systems and incorporation of analytics into play style, since as we know it is PoMo who runs the bench and holds the keys to the car.

Chevy has made his mistakes for sure, but he seems like a smart guy who is open to new ideas and aware of trends in the game. Is he really onboard with the "little guy/big guy" defence pairing brainwave? Or the "no activating the D unless we're chasing the game" brand of reactive hockey?

In a way, it's the reactive systems I find the most baffling, with a team as talented as the Jets, who should be able to keep up with pretty much anyone in terms of sheer scoring talent and goaltending. We saw it with Vegas in 2018, and we've seen it ever since, though never as egregiously as last year, IMO. We should be using our speed and creativity to maximum effect off the rush, forechecking in waves, using a staggered D to cut off passes and rushes the other way and looking for quick retrieval and counters. Instead, we dump 'er in, send in a lone forechecker who ambles in and never gets or quickly loses possession, and spend forever screwing around in our own zone before doing it all over again. It's painful to watch and I imagine more painful to play. Is this Chevy's idea of good hockey?

 

[ecolad]

This is where the other room leaders need to pull Mark aside and have a conversation with him.

Agree totally. But just who is going to act as leader in a circumstance such as this , other than Wheeler? The traditional "leadership team of veterans" has shrunk to only Wheeler with the passage of time, and the only replacement on the team has arguably been Scheifele himself. Conversation with Scheifele is not gonna happen.. .

I think that this has been a major behind-the- scenes factor in some of the problems we`ve noted the past while concerning the pre-game state of readiness of the team - they come out flat far too often, and require lots of good fortune to elevate their play when they win. I do not blame Wheeler for this - it`s too big a responsibility for any one man by himself. But again, this is how Maurice operates - you may remember that he proudly proclaims that he personally never has to get the team ready for a game - in fact, he`s proud of the fact that he never even goes into " the Room" at all. He treats it as a sanctuary, managed by the leaders.

 

[Zippity]

Time to start playing the other goalie more

 

[LowLefty]

I am honestly unsure as to how much sway Chevy holds in these decisions. Chipman is all in on Maurice, org seems to be run as an owner/GM/HC team, with joint input in things like personnel, but perhaps not so much joint input on roster deployment, systems and incorporation of analytics into play style, since as we know it is PoMo who runs the bench and holds the keys to the car.

Chevy has made his mistakes for sure, but he seems like a smart guy who is open to new ideas and aware of trends in the game. Is he really onboard with the "little guy/big guy" defence pairing brainwave? Or the "no activating the D unless we're chasing the game" brand of reactive hockey?

In a way, it's the reactive systems I find the most baffling, with a team as talented as the Jets, who should be able to keep up with pretty much anyone in terms of sheer scoring talent and goaltending. We saw it with Vegas in 2018, and we've seen it ever since, though never as egregiously as last year, IMO. We should be using our speed and creativity to maximum effect off the rush, forechecking in waves, using a staggered D to cut off passes and rushes the other way and looking for quick retrieval and counters. Instead, we dump 'er in, send in a lone forechecker who ambles in and never gets or quickly loses possession, and spend forever screwing around in our own zone before doing it all over again. It's painful to watch and I imagine more painful to play. Is this Chevy's idea of good hockey?

I agree the team has talent but they have a gapping hole in that talent on the blue line.
Chevy made that clear going into and coming out of the deadline - he wanted to add support on the blue line and was unable to get it done for a number of reasons - the primary one being the assets where not available (or he wasn't willing to pay the price - who knows).

We discuss systems a lot on this board - we also talk about our issues with personnel.
Scoring talent and goaltending will take you so far - but if you can't defend, you spend too much time in your end.
Some will claim it's the "systems" we use - others will look at what we have to work with.

We spend too much time in our end - that's the base of the problem.
Our D are not "talented" - even when they have the puck, they are slow in making decisions and that includes JoMo and Pionk. Both would rather use a slow rush while everyone crawls into the neutral zone. Once that zone is completely congested, they hand it off to a forward who has nowhere to go. This is where the dump / chase starts and ends - and to add to that, this play usually happens after we have spent the first half of the shift trying to retrieve the puck - there's nothing left in the tank at that point.
We are unable to get things rolling in our zone with quick retrieval and outlet passes - while everyone is still able to drive the play the other way.

Expectations are that a system approach will fix this - if only it were that easy - most teams would be a contender by simply applying a system that works regardless of d depth / talent. I'll admit to some hyperbole in that statement - only trying to make a point.

IMO, it's wishful thinking but gives the fans something to work through as a solution. If you spend the night in your end and are unwilling to put in the work required to offset the imbalance on the roster, you will not generate much in the way of offence regardless of how offensively talented your players are. In fact, the more offensively talented your players are, the less chance you will have in convincing them to play hard enough to out weigh the D shortfall. You'd likely be more successful with average players who will play hard at both ends - we have a few of those.

Chevy knows this - he simply was unable to do anything about it.
I think he would also agree that it's painful to watch.

 

[surixon]

Agree totally. But just who is going to act as leader in a circumstance such as this , other than Wheeler? The traditional "leadership team of veterans" has shrunk to only Wheeler with the passage of time, and the only replacement on the team has arguably been Scheifele himself. Conversation with Scheifele is not gonna happen.. .

I think that this has been a major behind-the- scenes factor in some of the problems we`ve noted the past while concerning the pre-game state of readiness of the team - they come out flat far too often, and require lots of good fortune to elevate their play when they win. I do not blame Wheeler for this - it`s too big a responsibility for any one man by himself. But again, this is how Maurice operates - you may remember that he proudly proclaims that he personally never has to get the team ready for a game - in fact, he`s proud of the fact that he never even goes into " the Room" at all. He treats it as a sanctuary, managed by the leaders.

Well you have Lowry, Copp and Morrissey who are now veteran leaders and now that Morrissey is back to close to his old self you have three mid to late 20's leaders that show up, play hard and are very attentive to detail. Surly they have enough clout in the room to pull Mark aside.

Or you could have the responsible vet Stastney have a one on one with him. I'm sure Mark respects him as a player.

 

[WolfHouse]

I agree the team has talent but they have a gapping hole in that talent on the blue line.
Chevy made that clear going into and coming out of the deadline - he wanted to add support on the blue line and was unable to get it done for a number of reasons - the primary one being the assets where not available (or he wasn't willing to pay the price - who knows).

We discuss systems a lot on this board - we also talk about our issues with personnel.
Scoring talent and goaltending will take you so far - but if you can't defend, you spend too much time in your end.
Some will claim it's the "systems" we use - others will look at what we have to work with.

We spend too much time in our end - that's the base of the problem.
Our D are not "talented" - even when they have the puck, they are slow in making decisions and that includes JoMo and Pionk. Both would rather use a slow rush while everyone crawls into the neutral zone. Once that zone is completely congested, they hand it off to a forward who has nowhere to go. This is where the dump / chase starts and ends - and to add to that, this play usually happens after we have spent the first half of the shift trying to retrieve the puck - there's nothing left in the tank at that point.
We are unable to get things rolling in our zone with quick retrieval and outlet passes - while everyone is still able to drive the play the other way.

Expectations are that a system approach will fix this - if only it were that easy - most teams would be a contender by simply applying a system that works regardless of d depth / talent. I'll admit to some hyperbole in that statement - only trying to make a point.

IMO, it's wishful thinking but gives the fans something to work through as a solution. If you spend the night in your end and are unwilling to put in the work required to offset the imbalance on the roster, you will not generate much in the way of offence regardless of how offensively talented your players are. In fact, the more offensively talented your players are, the less chance you will have in convincing them to play hard enough to out weigh the D shortfall. You'd likely be more successful with average players who will play hard at both ends - we have a few of those.

Chevy knows this - he simply was unable to do anything about it.
I think he would also agree that it's painful to watch.

Maurice runs a man coverage hybrid that is easy to counter - it’s the system... Keefe does not have a good defensive core so he will send all of his forwards back at times - it has transformed their below average D

our breakout speed is an issue - we get dangly and fancy in the neutral zone then chip and chase - Scheif is not committed to that game and only two of our top six bother backchecking - this is a systems buy in problem

 

[Jet]

Sorry, this doesnt fly. Name a progressive company that strives for higher performance via total inconsistency between communicating expectations and management action to associated outcomes.

If I am Scheif I am still wondering why my play earned the bench (albeit for a very short time - wasnt a real benching) for a shift that I have been called a team leader for countless times in the last 2 seasons.

The company I work for. We have a very consistent methodology in keeping attrition low and developing employees to perform at a level that is at least baseline to allow for the business' success.

We do have a hammer option and we use it where necessary, but it is far from the first, second, or third thing we do. Today's workforce will just quit if you are too iron handed with them (either just stop trying, or actually quit). It costs the company less to spend more time and resources on coaching and developing than it does to have a turnstile of employees. It also leads to far more effective employees because a more tenured workforce is more knowledgeable and has more skill.

This is right in the wheelhouse of my job function for this incredibly successful company, I'd consider myself an expert on this subject.

 

[Jet]

This is where the other room leaders need to pull Mark aside and have a conversation with him.

That is one of the most effective ways to change behavior. If your peers do the coaching, and do it right, it can have long lasting effects.

 

[ecolad]

Well you have Lowry, Copp and Morrissey who are now veteran leaders and now that Morrissey is back to close to his old self you have three mid to late 20's leaders that show up, play hard and are very attentive to detail. Surly they have enough clout in the room to pull Mark aside.

Or you could have the responsible vet Stastney have a one on one with him. I'm sure Mark respects him as a player.

As you note, any number of players have enough bonafides and hold enough respect from Mark that they could do the talk - but I don`t think that they will feel motivated to do so. They pride themselves on being a very close knit group of guys and have all committed to a culture/heirarchy of respect within this org. They will unquestionably see this as a matter to be addressed by the coach himself. Now if Maurice were to ask their help by initiating a player to player talk with Scheifele, I think they would willingly agree.

 

[LowLefty]

I didn't see Matthews or Mariner or Tavares doing a ton of backchecking in their zone - similar to our top line.
What I did see is their D men winning battles and moving the puck up ice to the above mentioned - quickly.

I agree with your last paragraph - our forwards do not work as hard as they need to.
Their issue is unrelated to our D issues - one group is unwilling to work and the other is unable to defend.
Put the two together and systems will never solve it.

 

[surixon]

The company I work for. We have a very consistent methodology in keeping attrition low and developing employees to perform at a level that is at least baseline to allow for the business' success.

We do have a hammer option and we use it where necessary, but it is far from the first, second, or third thing we do. Today's workforce will just quit if you are too iron handed with them (either just stop trying, or actually quit). It costs the company less to spend more time and resources on coaching and developing than it does to have a turnstile of employees. It also leads to far more effective employees because a more tenured workforce is more knowledgeable and has more skill.

This is right in the wheelhouse of my job function for this incredibly successful company, I'd consider myself an expert on this subject.

The key word in your response is coaching. I remain unconvinced that a lot of actual coaching and development is going on behind the scenes for this group. To me it seems Maurice has given too much free reign to the players and can no longer actively coach this group on best practices.

 

[Larabee]

I didn't see Matthews or Mariner or Tavares doing a ton of backchecking in their zone - similar to our top line.
What I did see is their D men winning battles and moving the puck up ice to the above mentioned - quickly.

I agree with your last paragraph - our forwards do not work as hard as they need to.
Their issue is unrelated to our D issues - one group is unwilling to work and the other is unable to defend.
Put the two together and systems will never solve it.

Exactly. Our D is not very active and can’t get the puck to the forwards fast enough. When you need your forwards to head man the puck to themselves, you can’t be successful.

 

[Jet]

The key word in your response is coaching. I remain unconvinced that a lot of actual coaching and development is going on behind the scenes for this group. To me it seems Maurice has given too much free reign to the players and can no longer actively coach this group on best practices.

That is a distinct possibility. Or, maybe their systems are setting players up to fail. It's so hard to say without any real insight into what's happening internally.

 

[surixon]

Exactly. Our D is not very active and can’t get the puck to the forwards fast enough. When you need your forwards to head man the puck to themselves, you can’t be successful.

How much of that is due our forwards being in poor position in our end. You can't move the puck quickly if the forwards aren't providing proper outlet support. Often times our dmen are forced to make long passes in our end because our forwards are hanging out by the blue line because they want to generate offense.

You know how you solve this, have a forward down low infront of the net to provide a quick outlet option for the dmen. Morrissey and Pionk Canova it quickly when they have the outlet. I find they take there time when not presented with a lot of good options and then have to wait for a lane to open up.

 

[WolfHouse]

I didn't see Matthews or Mariner or Tavares doing a ton of backchecking in their zone - similar to our top line.
What I did see is their D men winning battles and moving the puck up ice to the above mentioned - quickly.

I agree with your last paragraph - our forwards do not work as hard as they need to.
Their issue is unrelated to our D issues - one group is unwilling to work and the other is unable to defend.
Put the two together and systems will never solve it.

Toronto relies a lot more on jamming up the neutral zone - Matthews et al really hustle to get in position for Keefe's trap. Maurice seems to aim more at jumping lanes and allowing a zone entry as long as things are kept to the 'outside'... which doesn't really work.

 

[bumblebeeman]

That’s what is frustrating. We have a ton of talent but we either don’t play a system to take advantage of it, or don’t press them hard enough to play with urgency or don’t play them where they deserve in the lineup or simply let them sit in the press box.

I honestly don’t know how Chevy is ok with any of these decisions.

What a waste of talent.

Do you really think the Jets talent is better then their results? Right now they are 12th in the league, and to me at least their roster isn't deserving of much better, especially considering the defence. Florida and Minnesota's teams don't look that impressive on paper, so maybe it's their coaching that is elevating them. Jets are pretty even with Edmonton, Boston, Islanders in the standings, and I don't think their roster is any better then those teams, and I don't think it's the coaches fault the Jets aren't better then those teams.

 

[WolfHouse]

How much of that is due our forwards being in poor position in our end. You can't move the puck quickly if the forwards aren't providing proper outlet support. Often times our dmen are forced to make long passes in our end because our forwards are hanging out by the blue line because they want to generate offense.

You know how you solve this, have a forward down low infront of the net to provide a quick outlet option for the dmen. Morrissey and Pionk Canova it quickly when they have the outlet. I find they take there time when not presented with a lot of good options and then have to wait for a lane to open up.

Whatever team we play will simply play one forecheck, buy time and jam the neutral zone - we start going east west far too early - I expect more than a few playoff games seeing five guys lined up between centre and their blue line and Maurice with no answers for it.

 

[MarkWheeler]

All leads me to believe what I've thought all along this year....

Maurice has been given the rope... Seems like he's hanging himself with it. Very vet heavy lineup and the almost refusal to play the younger guys like Gus Ves Ville even Big Stan only got in cuz vet Beaulieu got hurt. Spending to the cap in a covid year... Chipper and Chevy obviously have some high expectations.

Based on what? If they did, wouldn’t we have had a new coach by now. Doesn’t really seem to me like they have much of a problem with consistent mediocracy.

 

[bustamente]

If they bring in a new coach I hope they don't saddle him with a bunch of vets that have had their day in the league and shouldn't be on a NHL roster and I hope that Heinola and Samberg are the real deal and that Perfetti is close to making the jump

 

[JetsUK]

That is a distinct possibility. Or, maybe their systems are setting players up to fail. It's so hard to say without any real insight into what's happening internally.

Agree -- hard to say, but might be either, of both.

Agree also with your take on management in a competitive field. Coaches can't Bowman or Keenan top players into compliance and expect success, or to keep their jobs, but they can work with the various tiers and groups within the team to design systems and tactics optimized for the players they have rather than the players they think or wish they had.

No reason, for example, for the 3rd or 4th line to look to score off the rush every time they have possession, since that's not a strength, but also no reason to look for your Forborts and Beaulieus to have to thread a pass to a forward 60 feet away or rim it off the boards and lose possession. Maybe it's just that our entire team sucks at playing within a structure that is actually tactically sound, but then we're really screwed and nothing short of a blockbuster trade for top-pairing D and more defensively-strong forwards will save us. I don't see that as the case.

The Jets have been playing shut-your-eyes-and-hope defence since 2018-19. Other teams with less than stellar D corps (and that's most teams) seem to play with more FW support, quick outlets and less flat-out confusion in their own zone than we've done for ages. Why?

 

[Eyeseeing]

I have thought that the last 2-3 seasons we have been stale.
Hellebuyck’s play has masked the deficiencies and kept Maurice here.
If the message doesn’t change I’m not sure we should expect anything different than what we have witnessed these past few seasons.
Would love to see a poll put up on whether or not we stay the course with him.
I know I would like to see a change.