Speculation: Coaching Thread (poll included)

[Peat]

There was also a direct quote from a player suggesting that maybe he simply didn't like Kahun.

Couple that with the comment about players who were troubled about Sullivan's loyalty to players he'd won the Cup with before like Sheary, Murray, and Schultz, and it looks like Sullivan's playing favourites as much as it looked from the outside, to the team's detriment.

And then there was the story about Sullivan not saying boo to the golden child Jack Johnson while singling other players out for criticism.

None of this looks good at all. It looks like a complacent coach who'd rather play "his boys" than the best players, contrary to his standard line about "icing the team that gives us the best chance to win".

There's also a quote from a player supporting Sullivan's choices on the grounds of how well he had them playing, and Sullivan barely criticised anyone. I think there's a pretty big twist on the article you've got going there.

And he played who he thought were the best players. He followed his standard line. You just disagree with his views on who the best are, that's all.

Still wish we would've seen what we had in Kahun. I know he's not going to be this flashy, production machine or anything, but at the very least I saw a quality depth guy that we gave up on in order to bring back a familiar face in Sheary.

At best, Kahun could've been an effective player for Sid and Jake's vacancy at RW. Kahun could've been what this team wishes Simon was.

I dunno. That deal annoyed me when we made it. Much like Riikola and his inability to find a spot in the lineup, I always thought Kahun never really got a fair look. We were just too concerned with toeing the line and keeping the status quo re: Simon and Sheary.

They're really not that similar. People keep saying it and I don't see it. Kahun wants to hold onto the puck, he wants to go into the middle and deke and make plays. Simon goes wide, he looks to give it rather than hold it. He forechecks a lot more than Kahun, is a lot more active with the stick and body. Simon is the type of player Sid wants on his line (even if we wish he was better). Kahun isn't. He's probably a better all round hockey player than Simon, but he's not going to have more success with Crosby.

He also got a bunch of time with Malkin and played pretty consistently on attacking lines. Bar time with Sid, I don't know what more opportunity you wanted for him.

I wished he was on our third line going into this season. But he was very unlikely to ever be more than that here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There's also a quote from a player supporting Sullivan's choices on the grounds of how well he had them playing, and Sullivan barely criticised anyone. I think there's a pretty big twist on the article you've got going there.

And he played who he thought were the best players. He followed his standard line. You just disagree with his views on who the best are, that's all.



They're really not that similar. People keep saying it and I don't see it. Kahun wants to hold onto the puck, he wants to go into the middle and deke and make plays. Simon goes wide, he looks to give it rather than hold it. He forechecks a lot more than Kahun, is a lot more active with the stick and body. Simon is the type of player Sid wants on his line (even if we wish he was better). Kahun isn't. He's probably a better all round hockey player than Simon, but he's not going to have more success with Crosby.

He also got a bunch of time with Malkin and played pretty consistently on attacking lines. Bar time with Sid, I don't know what more opportunity you wanted for him.

I wished he was on our third line going into this season. But he was very unlikely to ever be more than that here.

I wanted more than the ~50 games he got. That's all. I'm not sure you're going to get the full picture when it comes to assessing a guy's value on the back of his first 50 games with a new club. If he never ended up better than a good 3rd liner, so be it. We could use one of those pretty bad right now.

 

[Peat]

I wanted more than the ~50 games he got. That's all. I'm not sure you're going to get the full picture when it comes to assessing a guy's value on the back of his first 50 games with a new club. If he never ended up better than a good 3rd liner, so be it. We could use one of those pretty bad right now.

Fair. It's not ideal for evaluating a player. I think he got a good go in the game he got here, but who knows what happens with more.

And yes, Kahun's playmaking on the third is looking sorely missed right now.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I’ve been preaching him being an NHL coach for a while and didn’t even notice he was on that list, changed my pick from GG to a guy I wouldn’t mind seeing as the Pens coach for a while, Todd Nelson.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I had just accepted Dominik Simon didn’t exist anymore, then you wankers started to argue about Kahun and Simon.

 

[66-30-33]

Sullivan for Cooper? first ever coach trade.

 

[EightyOne]

Sullivan for Cooper? first ever coach trade.

I think that has happened, back in the days when you could trade players for money, too.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think that has happened, back in the days when you could trade players for money, too.

Trading for cash is what literally saved the Penguins during the dying alive years.


As for Nelson, he’s the guy that was doing a ton of great work for the Stars before they hired a full time coach, he’s been great with a lot of teams, he’d be fantastic as a head coach.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I had just accepted Dominik Simon didn’t exist anymore, then you wankers started to argue about Kahun and Simon.

Who do you think should be the starting ‘tender?

 

[Peat]

Sullivan for Cooper? first ever coach trade.

I don't think Cooper's all that and the prospect of going through a team with Tampa's talent with peak Sully scares the shit out of me. I guess it'd be one way to find out if he's a really good coach or just a right time right place guy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There's also a quote from a player supporting Sullivan's choices on the grounds of how well he had them playing, and Sullivan barely criticised anyone. I think there's a pretty big twist on the article you've got going there.

There's a reason people don't write articles when hockey players tow the party line, Peat. That's the overwhelming default in a sport where very few deviate. That as many players spoke out for the article as they did - especially for the notoriously tight-lipped Penguins - is significant because it's so rare.

And the fact that Sullivan would call out anyone on that team and spare Jack Johnson criticism is galling.

And he played who he thought were the best players. He followed his standard line. You just disagree with his views on who the best are, that's all.

And so do some of his players, enough to be quoted questioning his motives to a national publication.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Who do you think should be the starting ‘tender?

JS Aubin.

 

[Peat]

There's a reason people don't write articles when hockey players tow the party line, Peat. That's the overwhelming default in a sport where very few deviate. That as many players spoke out for the article as they did - especially for the notoriously tight-lipped Penguins - is significant because it's so rare.

And the fact that Sullivan would call out anyone on that team and spare Jack Johnson criticism is galling.



And so do some of his players, enough to be quoted questioning his motives to a national publication.

You don't know whether the quote was about liking Kahun as a player or as a person. You don't know how many players spoke in criticism of him either, or who. Maybe the guy really troubled by loyalty to Schultz was Ruhwedel. And I don't care whether it's galling, it's a twist to make it seem like JJ was specifically not criticised when that was his general approach.

I'm not saying there's nothing there - there clearly is something - but you're twisting this as negative as possible. And I say this less because I think you're going to reconsider your position and more because I don't want anyone to think this is an account of *everything* that's in the article about this. Fair enough if that's what jumped out at you as the most important stuff but there's a bunch of other stuff around it too.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You don't know whether the quote was about liking Kahun as a player or as a person. You don't know how many players spoke in criticism of him either, or who. Maybe the guy really troubled by loyalty to Schultz was Ruhwedel. And I don't care whether it's galling, it's a twist to make it seem like JJ was specifically not criticised when that was his general approach.

The last thing I want to do is misrepresent the article, so I'll include what your referring to:

Added another veteran Penguins player, after the playoffs: “We had too much change all year — so much change with guys injured and trades. We get healthy a little bit and change more. Why?”

Adding Zucker, that player said, was the only move the Penguins needed. He also questioned sending Dominik Kahun, a versatile forward acquired in the Maatta trade last summer, to Buffalo for Rodrigues and Sheary.

“Kahun was a good player for us,” the player said. “Maybe the coach doesn’t like him? I’m not sure.”

That feeling about Kahun was not a rare one around here. However you want to interpret the coach "liking" a player, Sullivan has a habit of "liking" or "disliking" certain players all out of proportion with their actual on-ice performance. That's a problem.

Some players were troubled by Sullivan’s loyalty to players who won with him before, specifically Sheary, Murray and Justin Schultz.

That's 3 players at 3 different positions, mentioned by more than one player, so it's not just one disgruntled bubble guy who didn't see playing time barking about the player Sullivan preferred.

As for JJ, I don't care if not criticizing is Sullivan's general approach. JJ was a goddamn train wreck, by far the worst on the team. If you're chewing out any other player and exempting him, that's a clear indication that you're not running a team based on merit. Then we hear the coaching staff was pleased with his performance, and JR is crowing about JJ being picked on while hanging impending UFA Schultz out to dry?

Nah. Pens front office, GTFO.

I'm not saying there's nothing there - there clearly is something - but you're twisting this as negative as possible. And I say this less because I think you're going to reconsider your position and more because I don't want anyone to think this is an account of *everything* that's in the article about this. Fair enough if that's what jumped out at you as the most important stuff but there's a bunch of other stuff around it too.

I came into the article willing to support Sullivan coming back next season, and I was saying as much about a page back. Enough bothered me in this article to change my mind. The rot starts at the top, and by the sounds of things its going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[pistolpete11]

One coaching decision I haven't seen a lot of people talk about was putting the Marleau-McCann-Hornqvist line together in the first place. Marleau is too old, McCann played so poorly he should be scratched before JMFJ/Schultz, and we better trade Hornqvost before it's too late. Yeah, maybe, or maybe that is a terrible mix for a line because none of them can hold onto the puck and make a play. Marleau is clearly at or near the end of his career, but he still was on a 30EV point pace this season. McCann was having a solid year pre-deadline. Hornqvist was on a 27G 50P pace. So was it really the players? Or their usage?

I do put part of that blame at the feet of JR for trading Kahun who could hang onto the puck, but Sully didn't like Kahun either, so who knows how he would have used him.

 

[EightyOne]

Who do you think should be the starting ‘tender?

They're pretty good at defending empty net lately

 

[stardog]

I'm leaving this board until the season I think, or something big happens. Too many fans are acting like immature, whining little new born babes and are drowning out good discussion. Too many to ignore. Yeah, Sullivan is a bozo. Yeah, Rutherford should "shut the f*** up old man". Jesus Christ. This team might have the stupidest fan base in the NHL, or at least the most undeserving.

Mr.Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle.

This Sullivan stuff I would say is about time the masses realize it. Obviously the players play and the teams ultimate success or failure relies on the on ice product, primarily the stars.
But when your own coach becomes an obstacle the players have to overcome then he shouldn't be coaching. That's a given.
Sullivan became such either through lineup decisions or through players who were removed from the team because Sullivan simply didn't like them. His recent extension (which I was totally against at the time for these very reasons in this thread and others) is saving his job.
Although the guy is so stubborn that I seriously doubt it will serve as a wakeup call prompting any change

 

[stardog]

One coaching decision I haven't seen a lot of people talk about was putting the Marleau-McCann-Hornqvist line together in the first place. Marleau is too old, McCann played so poorly he should be scratched before JMFJ/Schultz, and we better trade Hornqvost before it's too late. Yeah, maybe, or maybe that is a terrible mix for a line because none of them can hold onto the puck and make a play. Marleau is clearly at or near the end of his career, but he still was on a 30EV point pace this season. McCann was having a solid year pre-deadline. Hornqvist was on a 27G 50P pace. So was it really the players? Or their usage?

I do put part of that blame at the feet of JR for trading Kahun who could hang onto the puck, but Sully didn't like Kahun either, so who knows how he would have used him.

Wait... you think McCann played worse than Johnson? And you do realize that McCann was scratched...the results not being a positive gain

 

[pistolpete11]

Wait... you think McCann played worse than Johnson? And you do realize that McCann was scratched...the results not being a positive gain

I think you missed the point of my post.

 

[The Old Master]

Mr.Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle.

This Sullivan stuff I would say is about time the masses realize it. Obviously the players play and the teams ultimate success or failure relies on the on ice product, primarily the stars.
But when your own coach becomes an obstacle the players have to overcome then he shouldn't be coaching. That's a given.
Sullivan became such either through lineup decisions or through players who were removed from the team because Sullivan simply didn't like them. His recent extension (which I was totally against at the time for these very reasons in this thread and others) is saving his job.
Although the guy is so stubborn that I seriously doubt it will serve as a wakeup call prompting any change

i missed you

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Mr.Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle.

This Sullivan stuff I would say is about time the masses realize it. Obviously the players play and the teams ultimate success or failure relies on the on ice product, primarily the stars.
But when your own coach becomes an obstacle the players have to overcome then he shouldn't be coaching. That's a given.
Sullivan became such either through lineup decisions or through players who were removed from the team because Sullivan simply didn't like them. His recent extension (which I was totally against at the time for these very reasons in this thread and others) is saving his job.
Although the guy is so stubborn that I seriously doubt it will serve as a wakeup call prompting any change

Nice story. The point is that calling a two-time Cup winning coach a bozo is pathetic, as is saying Rutherford is an old man who should shut the f*** up. Both speak to astonishing immaturity and should be openly mocked.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

JS Aubin.

Craig Hillier should be ready by now.

 

[Richard]

Seeing Kessel bust his ass and create scoring chance after scoring chance.... and on the other end Cole blocking shots and making sharp, crisp outlet passes......

way to go JR.

Oh wait Galy is gonna score 40 with Malkin
!!!!!!

 

[Gurglesons]

Seeing Kessel bust his ass and create scoring chance after scoring chance.... and on the other end Cole blocking shots and making sharp, crisp outlet passes......

way to go JR.

Oh wait Galy is gonna score 40 with Malkin
!!!!!!

The trade was never about Galchenyuk.

Just like the Kahun trade was never about Kahun.

I don’t get why people are so stubborn to ignore this.

 

[Richard]

The trade was never about Galchenyuk.

Just like the Kahun trade was never about Kahun.

I don’t get why people are so stubborn to ignore this.

Pray, do tell, what WAS it about then?

To keep Malkin happy? He obviously is not. To win a playoff series? Obviously we did not. To keep sullivan happy? Why?