Speculation: Coaching Thread (poll included)

Who should be the next coach?


  • Total voters
    164

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,575
1,249
Montreal, QC
Phil Kessel has 0 points in the actual playoffs.

OK, fine. Dismiss the qualifiers. Then instead of two early exits the last two years, we have one sweep followed by missing the playoffs. Semantics.

Again, we miss what he brought when he was here and he needs to be replaced A S A P. Not with him, with someone else.

I am really not sure why people hate on Kessel, or deny what he brought to the club (and what is clearly missing now).

Our two superstars cannot win another Cup without someone like Kessel helping them out on offense. They did it it in their early 20's, and failed to do so until he was brought in. And, it does not show in the official records but Kessel won a Conn Smythe for us...Sid being the de facto winner whenever writers have no idea who to choose (because there is no way in hell they will ever acknowledge Kessel in any sort of positive way).

This is the reality of our situation.
 
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Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,575
1,249
Montreal, QC
Rust had the same number of PP points as Kessel in 15 less games this season. If you look at relative GF/60 on the PP this season for the 54 RWs who played 100+ PP minutes, Rust was 3rd and Kessel was 50th. Better possession metrics too.

I'm not saying Rust is in fact the true heir to the PP throne, but those are pretty weird results if Rust is a non-factor and Kessel the key ingredient.

Do you honestly believe Rust can man the left half-boards and gain the same kind of respect from the PK units to open things up for the others on the PP? Do you think he can feather passes seamlessly through the box?

Come on people...what are we talking about here?
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,486
73,661
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Do you honestly believe Rust can man the left half-boards and gain the same kind of respect from the PK units to open things up for the others on the PP? Do you think he can feather passes seamlessly through the box?

Come on people...what are we talking about here?

Kessel hadn’t done this for a year + effectively.

I swear people don’t remember how awful our powerplay was in 18-19.
 
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Pittsburgh1776

Registered User
Aug 9, 2010
5,274
4,638
It isn't hating on Kessel to realize that he was absolutely awful in 2018-19, and he really wasn't good in 2017-18 either. Whatever good he brought those two years was outweighed by the bad, especially the last year...when not only was his on-ice play embarrassingly soft and uncommitted, but his off-ice drama was impacting one of our superstars and clearly disrupting our team.

Yes, he brought offense and a panache to our team in 2016 and 2017, which was definitely helpful. That's as far as it went and this has been the case on every team he's been on. But Guentzel brings plenty of that when healthy. We aren't going to be getting another winger like that without packaging some great assets and isn't that what we've been saying Rutherford has to stop doing?
 
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Peat

Registered User
Jun 14, 2016
29,292
25,206
Do you honestly believe Rust can man the left half-boards and gain the same kind of respect from the PK units to open things up for the others on the PP? Do you think he can feather passes seamlessly through the box?

Come on people...what are we talking about here?

I don't think Rust had Kessel's strengths but he clearly had a better PP year than him. If he's a non-factor and Kessel key, how and why?
 

Pittsburgh1776

Registered User
Aug 9, 2010
5,274
4,638
Rust doesn't help Sid and Geno in the post-season? Uh, that line was dominating the best competition in the regular season then Guentzel got hurt and they were never reunited. Rust has always played great with Malkin in the post-season, going back to 2016..
 

Pittsburgh1776

Registered User
Aug 9, 2010
5,274
4,638


Been a fan of Dave King for a long time, probably too old now but I thought he would have been a great assistant here for a long time.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
I don't think any of that changes my position that every problem that occurred this season that Kessel was meant to help with was one that already existed when we had Kessel. Him being the solution or the key ingredient that we struggle without doesn't hold up to that in my opinion. And that's what it comes down to. If he can't help with the problems, you get rid before he becomes one. Which, as the 34th highest producing RW for the 13th highest cap hit when he adds close to nothing other than production, may have already happened.

Sure it would have been nice to address other issues, but the idea he should have spared because he was priority 3 and we couldn't do priorities 1 or 2 isn't one I have zero truck with. And given the fact he couldn't solve our problems while holding a potential problem contract - and personality clashes - made him a priority. That's the bottom line for me.

The PP was productive when Kessel was here. Kessel's zone entries and presence on the left side of the ice opened things up and gave our skilled players room to operate. That was always the case outside of a 4 game sample size in the 2019 playoffs. Now it's not.

It gave up shorthanded goals in his last season here, but now we simply don't score. The PP saps our momentum regularly.

Kessel was playing injured for a good part of this season on a putrid offensive team. It seems like where we disagree is that you're content to leave huge current net negatives on our roster while getting rid of potential future problems that were still productive and useful. I don't think that's the way a team whose best contention window is the next couple years should operate.

Sheary got the majority of time with a clearly not physically right Sid and Kahun got his with unsustainably hot McCann or God Mode Geno. That's even enough not to quibble. Will Kahun do better in future? Who cares, it's only what they'd do here that's important, and what we saw was pretty similar results.

And Rodrigues wasn't the justification for moving Kahun. He was just a nice throw-in we would have needed over a deep playoff run. The justification was Sheary and if the flat cap hadn't unpredictably come in, he'd had ended up back here at similar money after similar results.

The injury and linemate argument applies doubly to Kessel's performance this season.

Kahun performed well no matter who he was playing with, and only spent about 1/5 of his TOI in the top 6. Sheary without Crosby didn't fare near so well.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
Phil Kessel just put up 38 points.

Why is he an 82 point winger here again?

Kessel scored 82 points his last season here. That's what we gave up.

His totals after going to the 3rd worst offense in the league while playing through an injured groin are not reflective of his performance or potential here.

You put Letang on the Coyotes, he's not sniffing 50 points.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
$3.5 million, considering that's exactly what Rust was on pace to do this year.

Interesting.

First because you think Rust would get 3.5 mil in FA, and second because I don't remember him helping our PP. We got worse.

Rust had the same number of PP points as Kessel in 15 less games this season. If you look at relative GF/60 on the PP this season for the 54 RWs who played 100+ PP minutes, Rust was 3rd and Kessel was 50th. Better possession metrics too.

I'm not saying Rust is in fact the true heir to the PP throne, but those are pretty weird results if Rust is a non-factor and Kessel the key ingredient.

Again, Rust was on the Penguins, and Kessel was on the Coyotes.

I'd have loved if Rust were the answer to our PP problems. People were trumpeting that possibility before the playoffs, like they did when Galchenyuk and Zucker were acquired. But it didn't happen.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,486
73,661
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Kessel scored 82 points his last season here. That's what we gave up.

His totals after going to the 3rd worst offense in the league while playing through an injured groin are not reflective of his performance or potential here.

You put Letang on the Coyotes, he's not sniffing 50 points.

Why is that? Malkin and Crosby were regularly injured this year and we didn’t have the “ lynchpin of our PP in Kessel” and he put up 44 pts and more powerplay goals than anyone in the league on defense but one player.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
Why is that? Malkin and Crosby were regularly injured this year and we didn’t have the “ lynchpin of our PP in Kessel” and he put up 44 pts and more powerplay goals than anyone in the league on defense but one player.

Crosby and Malkin are each better than any Coyote (whose best player only played 35 games this year), and Letang played with Crosby for 41 of his 61 games and Malkin for 55 of his 61 games.

That the Penguins are light years better offensively than the Coyotes really isn't worthy of debate.
 

Penguinfan66

Registered User
Sep 9, 2008
21
8
How is anybody looking at Kessel this year, who Coyotes fans all wanted gone all year once they realized he was washed, as some sort of missed opportunity or missing piece. He sucks now. He’s old. Move on.
I agree I'm sure there's plenty of ex-Pens I'd like to see in Pittsburgh in there prime of course. Sure they could use a Kessel like player but not him now. Just hoping some changes that will make a difference will happen. Like what Murray has done but hope they move on... Certainly dont want him signed and protected in expansion draft next summer
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,407
78,003
Redmond, WA
I find it funny people make a big shit out of losing Kessel, when Kessel regressed to Rust level offensively after leaving and Rust exploding into Kessel level offensively when he took Kessel's old spot.

Maybe Kessel is no better than Rust offensively at this point and his PPG production in Pittsburgh was more due to usage.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
I find it funny people make a big shit out of losing Kessel, when Kessel regressed to Rust level offensively after leaving and Rust exploding into Kessel level offensively when he took Kessel's old spot.

Maybe Kessel is no better than Rust offensively at this point and his PPG production in Pittsburgh was more due to usage.

Does any of this make our PP not an abortion? Because that's the issue.

The Pens powerplay cannot generate anything, the coach is on record as not understanding the problem, and a good portion of the fanbase is so hellbent on the idea that Kessel contributed nothing of value that they can't acknowledge the issue either.

How is anybody looking at Kessel this year, who Coyotes fans all wanted gone all year once they realized he was washed, as some sort of missed opportunity or missing piece. He sucks now. He’s old. Move on.

Even on a wonky groin, Kessel led the Coyotes in PP points. Even as a Coyote, Kessel scored as many PP points as any Penguin other than Malkin - and the Coyotes didn't give up any more SH goals than the Pens this year either.

Our powerplay sucks. Kessel's gone, but it needs to be acknowledged that what he brought is missed so that this team knows what to target moving forward.

If the team thinks a middle-tier LH shot scoring winger like Galchenyuk or Zucker or a try-hard speed merchant like Rust can help the 1st PP unit with zone entries and work the left boards well enough to open up the ice for our star centers, they've been wrong and they'll continue to be wrong until the league beats it into their heads.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
Was JR's fault Sullivan was coach?
JR’s fault is that he didn’t recognize the powerplay wasn’t good enough, as it was argued to me, oh we were top 10..blah blah blah, but in reality, with that personnel, we should have seen this powerplay as a top 3, no excuses. The usage of players, also something JR should have taken more notice of, but like many here, he was also blinded by the 2 cup wins and gave him a ton of rope.

Now he’s reeled it in, fired the assistants, and fired a warning shot across Sully’s face. You have Sid, Geno, Zucker, Letang, Jake, and Horny and you can’t out score f***ing Byron, Danault, Domi, Kotkianiemi and Petry? Yeah that ain’t on JR, some of it is, but most of it is on Sully and his staff.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
I find it funny people make a big shit out of losing Kessel, when Kessel regressed to Rust level offensively after leaving and Rust exploding into Kessel level offensively when he took Kessel's old spot.

Maybe Kessel is no better than Rust offensively at this point and his PPG production in Pittsburgh was more due to usage.
No, that’s over simplifying it. The issue with Kessel was that he wanted to play in the top 6, Sully only ever identified it as Malkin’s wing or bust. They didn’t really have a proper 3C which is on JR, but the usage of Kessel only and purely only on Malkin’s line is on Sully and then the deterioration of the relationship with Malkin, Sully, and Kessel was just icing on the turd cake.

I think Phil being a big name on the Coyotes made it easier for players to target him to shut him down, he’s also still playing like he’s hurt. Have you seen any of the Coyotes games? Mock him all you want, but the Kessel I am seeing isn’t a healthy one even with the time off he had. His biggest issue is he wants to always play, even at his own expense when he should be resting, it’s like the only way he will now is if he has a serious injury.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
Sully always did that, it was you work with one or no one and I never understood that, the usual whiners will come out from under the turd soaked rocks when I mention the name, but Daniel Sprong was forced to work with Sid, but showed more chemistry with Malkin, forget that it’s Sprong I am talking about, what if we have Poulin up and he looks fantastic with Sid but they force him with Malkin, while Sully is coach, then he writes that prospect off as not ready.

Chemistry as we all know is hugely important, but it’s only exclusive to people Sullivan likes and only those he likes. Which is f***ing bullshit.
 

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