Speculation: Coaching Thread (poll included)

[Gurglesons]

If the brass thought they could do it without a key element that made them so successful - their best PP producer over the last few years who opened up the ice for them to operate - they were clearly mistaken.

Hopefully these playoffs can teach them a lesson. Knowing how bullheaded they can be, I have serious doubts. They still think JJ's a good defenseman.

Powerplay has been a let down and a black mark in four consecutive playoff series. So I don’t really care what Phil does because we lost against Washington and the Isles and nearly lost against Philly because of awful decision making and SH chances specifically caused by him.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because he has a lot less to work with in Arizona, and we just got our asses handed to us by the 24th seed.

Philly has had the same thing happen to them the last two games. Freak season and I don’t think you pay 6.8 mil for players that need “a lot to work with” especially at 30+.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If Phil was as good as people wish he was, more than Minnesota would've wanted to trade for him before Arizona begrudgingly circled back and finally accepted a trade for the guy. And that's after Phil nixed the Minny deal, and made it known he'd only go to Arizona, so the Coyotes knew they wouldn't have to part with significant assets. So much is made of his shot, his playmaking ability, his PP ability and his contract that you'd think he'd have been crazy sought after.

 

[Pancakes]

You said in the Kahun trade thread that it was pushing the AHLers out of the lineup, which doesn't exactly sound like you didn't think forward depth wasn't an issue.

Which I accept is somewhat of a cheap shot but I don't see a better way of reminding people of just how broken down our forward corps was at the time heading to a post-season where we expected no Guentzel. There's a lot of 20-20 hindsight going around about Rutherford looking to add forward depth at the deadline.

Maybe I did. That part of the season feels like years ago so I don't remember exactly how I felt about it at the time.

Yeah, I think even myself who doesn’t really have a problem with the deal thinks it is awful in hindsight, but due to the injuries and what the team needed the move was decent enough.

True, and as Peat mentioned I'm being a bit revisionist about this apparently.

One thing I will say is Erod didn't get a chance to even play which I thought was a joke. He looked good in the (for lack of a better word) covid-training camp. Silly that he didn't get a chance to play, especially with how shitty the whole team looked.

 

[66-30-33]

If Phil was as good as people wish he was, more than Minnesota would've wanted to trade for him before Arizona begrudgingly circled back and finally accepted a trade for the guy. And that's after Phil nixed the Minny deal, and made it known he'd only go to Arizona, so the Coyotes knew they wouldn't have to part with significant assets. So much is made of his shot, his playmaking ability, his PP ability and his contract that you'd think he'd have been crazy sought after.

Hopefully POJ turns out good.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe I did. That part of the season feels like years ago so I don't remember exactly how I felt about it at the time.



True, and as Peat mentioned I'm being a bit revisionist about this apparently.

One thing I will say is Erod didn't get a chance to even play which I thought was a joke. He looked good in the (for lack of a better word) covid-training camp. Silly that he didn't get a chance to play, especially with how shitty the whole team looked.

Sure. But, once again. In hindsight I think most of us agree it was a terrible trade, at the time there was reasoning behind it and it made sense.

We had like 1 goal amongst our actual bottom six forwards in two months.

 

[Peat]

I wouldn't go that far. The 1st unit had the same amount of goals in the playoffs this year, and struggled to produce all regular season to boot.

Now if the Pens had made it a priority to replace Kessel's positives without his defensive drawbacks, I'd have been fine with it. But they didn't. They got another LH shot who fit their speed heavy/skill deprived mold, and now the team's so one-note that they cant generate much of anything.

They either dont know what the problem is or think they're clever enough to compensate for it on the cheap.

Pretty sure PP1 had more shots vs Montreal plus I don't recall a shot getting as close Crosby's against the crossbar against the Islanders, but whatever. Quibbling over the details doesn't change the particulars which is -

Having a PP that struggles in the post-season was an issue pre-Kessel trade; having a PP that struggles in the regular season was an issue pre-Kessel trade; and getting Geno to score in the playoffs was an issue pre-Kessel trade.

Maybe trading Kessel wasn't quite the silver bullet for Malkin we thought after the end of the regular season (although that's a bigger sample and Malkin's xG/60 was over twice as high when with Zucker this playoff as with Kessel the last two) but making that move didn't create a problem. The problems you are pointing to were already there. You say Kessel was a key element to success - I don't think that was true for at least a season before.

Losing Kessel lost us nothing we hadn't already lost and gained us 6.8m worth of cap space. Win.

Hating the Kahun trade doesn't require hindsight.

Well not for you as you hate Sheary, but for a lot of people it did.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Phil was as good as people wish he was, more than Minnesota would've wanted to trade for him before Arizona begrudgingly circled back and finally accepted a trade for the guy. And that's after Phil nixed the Minny deal, and made it known he'd only go to Arizona, so the Coyotes knew they wouldn't have to part with significant assets. So much is made of his shot, his playmaking ability, his PP ability and his contract that you'd think he'd have been crazy sought after.

There's the small matter of a 23 team no-trade clause.

Not to mention, you could say exactly the same thing about Toronto's options when they dealt him to Pittsburgh, and that deal seems to have paid some dividends for us.

Philly has had the same thing happen to them the last two games. Freak season and I don’t think you pay 6.8 mil for players that need “a lot to work with” especially at 30+.

Philly's 1-1 against the Habs after two games and their 1st unit has already scored as many PP goals as ours did in 4 games. So...not really the same thing.

There aren't many 6.8 mil players not on ELCs that can carry a team's offense in 2020. And if they can, those would classified as incredible deals.

Powerplay has been a let down and a black mark in four consecutive playoff series. So I don’t really care what Phil does because we lost against Washington and the Isles and nearly lost against Philly because of awful decision making and SH goals specifically caused by him.

Kessel had 6 PP points in 12 playoff games in 2018, and the Pens lost to the eventual Cup champs with Malkin playing on a wonky leg. Doesn't look to shabby to me.

If you want to use big mistakes at critical times as a main criteria with which to judge a player, you show me Kessel's and I'll show Letang's, and we can discuss on which player it reflects more poorly.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's the small matter of a 23 team no-trade clause.

Not to mention, you could say exactly the same thing about Toronto's options when they dealt him to Pittsburgh, and that deal seems to have paid some dividends for us.



Philly's 1-1 against the Habs after two games and their 1st unit has already scored as many PP goals as ours did in 4 games. So...not really the same thing.

There aren't many 6.8 mil players not on ELCs that can carry a team's offense in 2020. And if they can, those would classified as incredible deals.



Kessel had 6 PP points in 12 playoff games in 2018, and the Pens lost to the eventual Cup champs with Malkin playing on a wonky leg. Doesn't look to shabby to me.

If you want to use big mistakes at critical times as a main criteria with which to judge a player, you show me Kessel's and I'll show Letang's, and we can discuss on which player it reflects more poorly.

We were 1-1 in the series heading into G3 too. My point is saying because Montreal knocked us out the Kessel trade was wrong is a stupid argument.

So we should have kept Kessel over Letang?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Pretty sure PP1 had more shots vs Montreal plus I don't recall a shot getting as close Crosby's against the crossbar against the Islanders, but whatever. Quibbling over the details doesn't change the particulars which is -

Having a PP that struggles in the post-season was an issue pre-Kessel trade; having a PP that struggles in the regular season was an issue pre-Kessel trade; and getting Geno to score in the playoffs was an issue pre-Kessel trade.

Maybe trading Kessel wasn't quite the silver bullet for Malkin we thought after the end of the regular season (although that's a bigger sample and Malkin's xG/60 was over twice as high when with Zucker this playoff as with Kessel the last two) but making that move didn't create a problem. The problems you are pointing to were already there. You say Kessel was a key element to success - I don't think that was true for at least a season before.

Losing Kessel lost us nothing we hadn't already lost and gained us 6.8m worth of cap space. Win.

The Pens had the 5th most potent PP in the league in '18-'19. Even considering the SH goals, the Pens were 12th in net PP goals in '18-'19 and 16th in '19-'20.

Further, this team has historically given much worse players much longer ropes than the one extended to Kessel. Whether it's geriatric Kunitz or present day JJ, these far lesser talents had years of poor play that they got to play through, but when a player who had 92 and 82 point seasons contributed to a porous PP for one regular season, he needs the boot?

Seems more like a personality clash to me. If he had been part of the get-along gang, that wouldn't have happened.

All of this is moot though, ultimately. Whatever anyone thinks of Kessel's shortcomings during his final year here, we need to replace some of the essential things he did on the PP. And until we do, we're going to keep struggling.

Well not for you as you hate Sheary, but for a lot of people it did.

I do hate Sheary. But I also understand the value of a more versatile, more productive player who's 3 years younger with cost certainty, and Rodrigues wasn't even our call-up when we had a healthy scratch in the playoffs so his "depth value" is pretty dubious. Judging from how he was used, Rodrigues was little more than window dressing so Crosby and Sullivan could have their lil buddy back.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We were 1-1 in the series heading into G3 too. My point is saying because Montreal knocked us out the Kessel trade was wrong is a stupid argument.

So we should have kept Kessel over Letang?

I think we should've kept both of them unless we could replace the good things they do.

Particularly with the costly trash we still have on the roster.

 

[Peat]

The Pens had the 5th most potent PP in the league in '18-'19. Even considering the SH goals, the Pens were 12th in net PP goals in '18-'19 and 16th in '19-'20.

Further, this team has historically given much worse players much longer ropes than the one extended to Kessel. Whether it's geriatric Kunitz or present day JJ, these far lesser talents had years of poor play that they got to play through, but when a player who had 92 and 82 point seasons contributed to a porous PP for one regular season, he needs the boot?

Seems more like a personality clash to me. If he had been part of the get-along gang, that wouldn't have happened.

All of this is moot though, ultimately. Whatever anyone thinks of Kessel's shortcomings during his final year here, we need to replace some of the essential things he did on the PP. And until we do, we're going to keep struggling.

Yeah, without the personality clash he's maybe still here. But there was one, and on the personality clash at least, he had a lot of rope. With hindsight (not completely hindsight though) probably too much.

There is also the fact that holding multiple big value ageing contracts just wasn't something this team could do if it wanted to avoid becoming the next Chicago and that we needed to move some of them (and maybe need to continue doing so). That bit goes overlooked a lot. If Kunitz had cost 6.8m, he'd never have lasted long enough to be a geriatric here at a guess.

I do hate Sheary. But I also understand the value of a more versatile, more productive player who's 3 years younger with cost certainty, and Rodrigues wasn't even our call-up when we had a healthy scratch in the playoffs so his "depth value" is pretty dubious. Judging from how he was used, Rodrigues was little more than window dressing so Crosby and Sullivan could have their lil buddy back.

Just thank your lucky stars for the flat cap then or he'd have been back Probably wouldn't have cost much more than Kahun's next contract either, and they're both about as versatile and they had the exact same p/60 here.

Rodrigues' value would have probably come more into it if we'd staggered into an April playoff. Definitely a step up from Angello in the depth queue and he'd have been 13th forward at least in April.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think we should've kept both of them unless we could replace the good things they do.

Particularly with the costly trash we still have on the roster.

Keeping flawed players who don’t outweigh their flaws when their paid above market value is how you end up in LA of CHI’s situation.

Letang hasn’t gotten their yet. Phil clearly was.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, without the personality clash he's maybe still here. But there was one, and on the personality clash at least, he had a lot of rope. With hindsight (not completely hindsight though) probably too much.

There is also the fact that holding multiple big value ageing contracts just wasn't something this team could do if it wanted to avoid becoming the next Chicago and that we needed to move some of them (and maybe need to continue doing so). That bit goes overlooked a lot. If Kunitz had cost 6.8m, he'd never have lasted long enough to be a geriatric here at a guess.

"Becoming the next Chicago" (somewhat ironic considering they've lasted longer than we did this year) is less about big value aging contracts and more about hanging onto players whose performance doesn't live up to their cap hit.

Kessel was our best PP performer coming off an 82 point season, yet we prioritized moving him over outright garbage like JJ who makes half as much but actively brings the team down across the board while contributing nothing of value. Kunitz' spot was chiseled in stone despite two 40 point seasons next to Crosby and only got turfed when he managed 29.

To me, that shows some twisted priorities. We need genuine skill a lot more than Sullivan thinks we do.

Just thank your lucky stars for the flat cap then or he'd have been back Probably wouldn't have cost much more than Kahun's next contract either, and they're both about as versatile and they had the exact same p/60 here.

Rodrigues' value would have probably come more into it if we'd staggered into an April playoff. Definitely a step up from Angello in the depth queue and he'd have been 13th forward at least in April.

While Sheary was gifted 1st line minutes and Kahun was moving all around the line-up. I'd be surprised if Sheary were the more productive player from here on out.

As for Rodrigues, being a step up from Angello isn't hard to do. I'd argue that if that's the sort of "depth value" he brought - where he can't beat out the likes of Sam Lafferty - then that's a bunk justification for moving Kahun,

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Keeping flawed players who don’t outweigh their flaws when their paid above market value is how you end up in LA of CHI’s situation.

Letang hasn’t gotten their yet. Phil clearly was.

What do you think a winger who would score 82 points with us and boost our PP would cost in FA?

 

[EightyOne]

What do you think a winger who would score 82 points with us and boost our PP would cost in FA?

9-12mil? Cause no FA ever wants to be here. 6-9mil true market value, though

 

[Empoleon8771]

What do you think a winger who would score 82 points with us and boost our PP would cost in FA?

$3.5 million, considering that's exactly what Rust was on pace to do this year.

 

[EightyOne]

$3.5 million, considering that's exactly what Rust was on pace to do this year.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I can't believe we have people pining for Kessel. We've truly come full circle.

 

[Peat]

"Becoming the next Chicago" (somewhat ironic considering they've lasted longer than we did this year) is less about big value aging contracts and more about hanging onto players whose performance doesn't live up to their cap hit.

Kessel was our best PP performer coming off an 82 point season, yet we prioritized moving him over outright garbage like JJ who makes half as much but actively brings the team down across the board while contributing nothing of value. Kunitz' spot was chiseled in stone despite two 40 point seasons next to Crosby and only got turfed when he managed 29.

To me, that shows some twisted priorities. We need a genuine skill a lot more than Sullivan thinks we do.

I don't think any of that changes my position that every problem that occurred this season that Kessel was meant to help with was one that already existed when we had Kessel. Him being the solution or the key ingredient that we struggle without doesn't hold up to that in my opinion. And that's what it comes down to. If he can't help with the problems, you get rid before he becomes one. Which, as the 34th highest producing RW for the 13th highest cap hit when he adds close to nothing other than production, may have already happened.

Sure it would have been nice to address other issues, but the idea he should have spared because he was priority 3 and we couldn't do priorities 1 or 2 isn't one I have zero truck with. And given the fact he couldn't solve our problems while holding a potential problem contract - and personality clashes - made him a priority. That's the bottom line for me.

While Sheary was gifted 1st line minutes and Kahun was moving all around the line-up. I'd be surprised if Sheary were the more productive player from here on out.

As for Rodrigues, being a step up from Angello isn't hard to do. I'd argue that if that's the sort of "depth value" he brought - where he can't beat out the likes of Sam Lafferty - then that's a bunk justification for moving Kahun,

Sheary got the majority of time with a clearly not physically right Sid and Kahun got his with unsustainably hot McCann or God Mode Geno. That's even enough not to quibble. Will Kahun do better in future? Who cares, it's only what they'd do here that's important, and what we saw was pretty similar results.

And Rodrigues wasn't the justification for moving Kahun. He was just a nice throw-in we would have needed over a deep playoff run. The justification was Sheary and if the flat cap hadn't unpredictably come in, he'd had ended up back here at similar money after similar results.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Rust should be kept because he produces under Sullivan for a low cost. But he does not help Crosby and Malkin in the playoffs like a Phil Kessel did, and he certainly is a non-factor on the PP.

Keep Rust, but we need another winger/forward who can help create more offense in all game situations (but especially on the power play).

This winger becomes even more critical to acquire if we're keeping Letang on the first PP unit.

 

[Gurglesons]

What do you think a winger who would score 82 points with us and boost our PP would cost in FA?

Phil Kessel just put up 38 points.

Why is he an 82 point winger here again?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Phil Kessel just put up 38 points.

Why is he an 82 point winger here again?

He is also doing what Phil always does in the postseason: show up and produce.

This really isn't about Phil, it's about finding his replacement (which we failed miserably to do this year).

 

[Gurglesons]

He is also doing what Phil always does in the postseason: show up and produce.

This really isn't about Phil, it's about finding his replacement (which we failed miserably to do this year).

Phil Kessel has 0 points in the actual playoffs.

We replaced Kessel with Bryan Rust and Malkin had his best year in like 5 and Rust was the 5th best PPG RW in the game and 10th in PPP from a RW.

 

[Peat]

Rust had the same number of PP points as Kessel in 15 less games this season. If you look at relative GF/60 on the PP this season for the 54 RWs who played 100+ PP minutes, Rust was 3rd and Kessel was 50th. Better possession metrics too.

I'm not saying Rust is in fact the true heir to the PP throne, but those are pretty weird results if Rust is a non-factor and Kessel the key ingredient.