Coaching Thread (II)

[Channelcat]

I think that’s an unfair thing to speculate about. Just like it would be unfair to suggest that if Button and Ferraro were to make negative comments about the job Maurice has done, that you would be among the first to suggest that they were misinformed and didn’t appropriately account for the difficult circumstances the team was playing under.

My opinion on Maurice has always remained unchanged. I know that Ferraro and Button are very respected on here,........but not by me. You will never hear me quote them, regardless. Plus bear in mind Pomo is close buds with the TSN guys

 

[Howard Chuck]

One of three things imo.

• Maurice isn’t a good coach.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster isn’t as good as we think.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster is pretty good, we just need a new voice/shakeup.

I tend towards 3.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Murate had a great article about our ‘stars’ having to step up. He’s absolutely correct, but how do you get those ‘stars’ to step up? Imo, you hold them accountable. You bench them or you limit their ice time or some sort of punishment for not performing to their ability and talent.

this is my main concern with Maurice. His unwillingness to hold certain players accountable when everyone else sees it.

It’s not that Scheifele is a bad player, far from it, but he’s got more in him. A good coach will get that out of him (and everyone else). At the end of the day its about winning not making friends.

 

[Mbraunm]

Murate had a great article about our ‘stars’ having to step up. He’s absolutely correct, but how do you get those ‘stars’ to step up? Imo, you hold them accountable. You bench them or you limit their ice time or some sort of punishment for not performing to their ability and talent.

this is my main concern with Maurice. His unwillingness to hold certain players accountable when everyone else sees it.

It’s not that Scheifele is a bad player, far from it, but he’s got more in him. A good coach will get that out of him (and everyone else). At the end of the day its about winning not making friends.

I completely agree. However, that has never been Maurice’s style of leadership. He has always thrown younger kids under the bus while remaining completely silent, or often praising his key vets despite what is embarrassingly obvious to most casual observers.
It supports his staying power, and, in the case of the Jets, it has worked. Keep your power base strong with a few key vets to keep a reign on the team. Holding Scheifele or Wheeler accountable is counter-intuitive to his entire leadership strategy.

 

[DashingDane]

One of three things imo.

• Maurice isn’t a good coach.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster isn’t as good as we think.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster is pretty good, we just need a new voice/shakeup.

I tend towards 3.

I think I'm somewhere in between 2 and 3.

- I think Paul is an above average coach and am under no illusion a new coach doesn't come with a new set of complaints/problems (probably a lot of the same).

- I think we definitely overrate how good the team is (specifically the forwards).

- A new voice/shake up is definitely needed in my opinion just to make the majority of the team feel less secure in their roles. As humans we tend to get complacent when we feel very comfortable over a longish stretch. I'm sure everyone has had a job here and can reflect on their efforts when they first started/got a new manager vs 5 years later when you feel like you know everything about the job/task.

 

[surixon]

The biggest issue that I see it is that of his main leaders in the room really only Morrissey and Copp are fully engaged and bought into the system on the ice. The two main leaders in Scheifele and Wheeler who both play the most are not fully engaged in playing the way the coach wants and don't get held accountable for it. In fairness to Wheeler he is aging out of being an elite player but is deployed like one anyhow.

The biggest thing that needs to happen is to get Scheifele back playing a strong two-way game. It doesn't seem like Maurice is capable of it so hopefully management/teammates or his outside coaching help can get through to him.

You get the dominant two-way center back then everything else becomes easier.

In all honesty some of the young players need to be brought into Moe's inner circle if you would. Players like Laine who are now superior players to Wheeler and who are actually playing the way Moe wants and busting their asses coming back every shift should be placed in higher standing and slowly transition the keys to the Morrissey's, Laine's, Copp's of the world to set the tone in the room and on the ice. If he does that he maintains a solid base and it allows him to hold the other players accountable.

 

[Ducky10]

The biggest issue that I see it is that of his main leaders in the room really only Morrissey and Copp are fully engaged and bought into the system on the ice. The two main leaders in Scheifele and Wheeler who both play the most are not fully engaged in playing the way the coach wants and don't get held accountable for it. In fairness to Wheeler he is aging out of being an elite player but is deployed like one anyhow.

The biggest thing that needs to happen is to get Scheifele back playing a strong two-way game. It doesn't seem like Maurice is capable of it so hopefully management/teammates or his outside coaching help can get through to him.

You get the dominant two-way center back then everything else becomes easier.

In all honesty some of the young players need to be brought into Moe's inner circle if you would. Players like Laine who are now superior players to Wheeler and who are actually playing the way Moe wants and busting their asses coming back every shift should be placed in higher standing and slowly transition the keys to the Morrissey's, Laine's, Copp's of the world to set the tone in the room and on the ice. If he does that he maintains a solid base and it allows him to hold the other players accountable.

In reality that means getting rid of Wheeler and Scheif. The dynamics of the room just don’t work that way, definitely not without alienating Wheeler and Chef. What you’re suggesting amounts to stripping the letters from those two, no way that’s productive and I doubt a new coach would go there either.

A lot of assumptions are made about holding the leadership accountable because the younger players are bothered by it not happening. We have no idea whether that is the case. I don’t get the feeling team unity is the issue with this squad.

 

[ps241]

In reality that means getting rid of Wheeler and Scheif. The dynamics of the room just don’t work that way, definitely not without alienating Wheeler and Chef. What you’re suggesting amounts to stripping the letters from those two, no way that’s productive and I doubt a new coach would go there either.

A lot of assumptions are made about holding the leadership accountable because the younger players are bothered by it not happening. We have no idea whether that is the case. I don’t get the feeling team unity is the issue with this squad.

We clearly had a rough season last year but the group seems tight this year from the outside looking in.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

I find it funny that some will attack Maurice for perceiving him to favor Scheif, by never holding him accountable for his poor defensive play at times.

Then they will call Maurice out when Scheif appears to not be warm and fuzzy with him, insinuating that they are not getting along, that there is a riff between them.

So just maybe Maurice is calling Scheif out, behind closed doors, and Scheif is not responding well to it.

 

[Jets 31]

I find it funny that some will attack Maurice for perceiving him to favor Scheif, by never holding him accountable for his poor defensive play at times.

Then they will call Maurice out when Scheif appears to not be warm and fuzzy with him, insinuating that they are not getting along, that there is a riff between them.

So just maybe Maurice is calling Scheif out, behind closed doors, and Scheif is not responding well to it.

Agreed , and maybe people's absolute hate for Maurice means they are constantly looking for something , anything , to complain about .

 

[surixon]

In reality that means getting rid of Wheeler and Scheif. The dynamics of the room just don’t work that way, definitely not without alienating Wheeler and Chef. What you’re suggesting amounts to stripping the letters from those two, no way that’s productive and I doubt a new coach would go there either.

A lot of assumptions are made about holding the leadership accountable because the younger players are bothered by it not happening. We have no idea whether that is the case. I don’t get the feeling team unity is the issue with this squad.

Possibly but it's not like it hasn't happened before and served to better the team. Lecavier in Tampa and Thornton in San Jose are a few examples.

If Maurice can't hold them accountable on the ice using things that he can control (ice time) then how is he going get these players to wise up.

Also I'm not suggesting there is any issue in the room. This is purely about individual performance of two key players and how they aren't pulling their weight in their own end. How as a leader do you get them back on track.

I don't think there are any easy answers but Maurice gets paid 7 figures to solve these types of problems and all seemingly does is just keep playing them huge minutes.

 

[Teemusalami204]

One of three things imo.

• Maurice isn’t a good coach.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster isn’t as good as we think.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster is pretty good, we just need a new voice/shakeup.

I tend towards 3.

There should be option 4

Chevy drafted a roster that doesnt know how to play defense.

Copp and maybe Lowry are the only consistent defensive forwards we have and other teams trash isnt going to get you stellar defenseman

 

[tbcwpg]

Murate had a great article about our ‘stars’ having to step up. He’s absolutely correct, but how do you get those ‘stars’ to step up? Imo, you hold them accountable. You bench them or you limit their ice time or some sort of punishment for not performing to their ability and talent.

this is my main concern with Maurice. His unwillingness to hold certain players accountable when everyone else sees it.

It’s not that Scheifele is a bad player, far from it, but he’s got more in him. A good coach will get that out of him (and everyone else). At the end of the day its about winning not making friends.

I hope I never read the phrase "hold them accountable" ever again in any context. It drives me nuts, just like "class" or "classless". Not a shot at you, I know it's a common phrase etc.

Anyway, I don't think the reaction should always be "bench them so they learn". They aren't children. Different adults are motivated by different methods.

They still give the team the best chance to win. Benching them in close games isn't productive.

 

[grieves]

I hope I never read the phrase "hold them accountable" ever again in any context. It drives me nuts, just like "class" or "classless". Not a shot at you, I know it's a common phrase etc.

Anyway, I don't think the reaction should always be "bench them so they learn". They aren't children. Different adults are motivated by different methods.

They still give the team the best chance to win. Benching them in close games isn't productive.

I'm with Howard of the Chuck family on this one.

You cannot have a hierarchy where some of the underlings are treated differently. Because that's what every player is, an underling to Maurice. I think it's perfectly reasonable to point this out every time it happens because it is a clear error.

That said, I'm not with the "how did he demote Ehlers" crowd. I think he was experimenting with the lineup and now that he does it, it's not reasonable to complain IMO.

The sub-optimal usage of Ehlers is a real thing though. He has very specific strengths that no-one on this team has and the team is not squeezing every bit of that unique talent. He draws penalties as well. It's not optimal to not have him on the ice as much as is reasonably possible.

--

Also, I think Wheeler might have to go back to the 2C role. I'm not against the top line (because Wheeler has aged a little [not a lot and perfectly understandable] and "spreading the wealth" is something I approve of, and if we have a top line with Wheeler and Harkins with good chemistry, I'm all for it), but I don't think this team has a choice. Wheeler is simply the best 2C option the team has (I've always lauded him for his versatility. A "jack-of-all-trades" and now that we have holes, that is such a valuable asset).

Maybe it is reasonable to get a bigger sample out of Copp though. Tough one. That line does seem very dysfunctional at times, although they did have a big game against Philly. There's just no time to experiment a lot now unfortunately.

 

[tbcwpg]

I'm with Howard of the Chuck family on this one.

You cannot have a hierarchy where some of the underlings are treated differently. Because that's what every player is, an underling to Maurice. I think it's perfectly reasonable to point this out every time it happens because it is a clear error.

That said, I'm not with the "how did he demote Ehlers" crowd. I think he was experimenting with the lineup and now that he does it, it's not reasonable to complain IMO.

The sub-optimal usage of Ehlers is a real thing though. He has very specific strengths that no-one on this team has and the team is not squeezing every bit of that unique talent. He draws penalties as well. It's not optimal to not have him on the ice as much as is reasonably possible.

--

Also, I think Wheeler might have to go back to the 2C role. I'm not against the top line (because Wheeler has aged a little and "spreading the wealth" is something I approve of), but I don't think this team has a choice. Wheeler is simply the best 2C option the team has.

Maybe it is reasonable to get a bigger sample out of Copp though. Tough one.

I'm with you on the Ehlers stuff.

I'm not sure, if I was a player on the Jets, down 2-1 with 10 to go in a game where we really need the points in a playoff race, that I would react too positively to our PPG 1C being benched to "hold him accountable", though.

I think a lot of this desire to bench 55 and 26 is more frustration from the fans than anything else. How many times do we hear from the same fans that we've got Copp or Lowry out there with 2 minutes to go when you need a goal, also say that Wheeler and Scheifele should be benched? If those guys are benched, who else do you think is going to be out there?

 

[grieves]

I'm with you on the Ehlers stuff.

I'm not sure, if I was a player on the Jets, down 2-1 with 10 to go in a game where we really need the points in a playoff race, that I would react too positively to our PPG 1C being benched to "hold him accountable", though.

I think a lot of this desire to bench 55 and 26 is more frustration from the fans than anything else. How many times do we hear from the same fans that we've got Copp or Lowry out there with 2 minutes to go when you need a goal, also say that Wheeler and Scheifele should be benched? If those guys are benched, who else do you think is going to be out there?

In the scenario you painted it would be stupid to bench 55-26, but I don't think that's what Howard Chuck was talking about.

When they play like garbage, backcheck like garbage etc, you should maybe consider benching them then in a game that you are handily losing.

Many top players have been benched, but not all, and that is the core issue I think. Even when specifically asked about the obvious shortcomings of certain players, they will not be held accountable, whereas other players' shortcomings are offered up immediately. That is an obvious issue in any hierarchical organization (everything is a hierarchy everywhere). I would argue top professionals would understand the reasoning behind this and respect the leader more for it.

Friendship is easy. Respect is earned.

 

[tbcwpg]

In the scenario you painted it would be stupid to bench 55-26, but I don't think that's what Howard Chuck was talking about.

When they play like garbage, backcheck like garbage etc, you should maybe consider benching them then in a game that you are handily losing.

Many top players have been benched, but not all, and that is the core issue I think. Even when specifically asked about the obvious shortcomings of certain players, they will not be held accountable, whereas other players' shortcomings are offered up immediately. That is an obvious issue in any hierarchical organization (everything is a hierarchy everywhere). I would argue top professionals would understand the reasoning behind this and respect the leader more for it.

Friendship is easy. Respect is earned.

Sure, but how many games are they losing handily lately? They lost by two in Philly, by one in Buffalo. The only games they've lost like that in February was the Rangers game.

People are talking about some sort of consequences for their play in threads about tight games. Players aren't dumb, they understand what's going on.

Benching players isn't always the solution. Not everyone responds the same way to the same management methods.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I find it funny that some will attack Maurice for perceiving him to favor Scheif, by never holding him accountable for his poor defensive play at times.

Then they will call Maurice out when Scheif appears to not be warm and fuzzy with him, insinuating that they are not getting along, that there is a riff between them.

So just maybe Maurice is calling Scheif out, behind closed doors, and Scheif is not responding well to it.

Remember there are lots of people posting here. There are lots of differing opinions. It doesn’t mean that anyone is changing their opinion, just that there are different people sharing their opinions.

This board isn’t a big homogeneous lump with the same groupthink.

 

[Gm0ney]

I find it funny that some will attack Maurice for perceiving him to favor Scheif, by never holding him accountable for his poor defensive play at times.

Then they will call Maurice out when Scheif appears to not be warm and fuzzy with him, insinuating that they are not getting along, that there is a riff between them.

So just maybe Maurice is calling Scheif out, behind closed doors, and Scheif is not responding well to it.

People are just trying to explain the decline of Scheifele. He was a way different player before - not a Selke candidate by any means, but he worked hard at both ends of the ice. What the hell happened? Maybe it's not Maurice, but he didn't sound too thrilled when he was asked about Maurice's extension. He lives and breathes hockey, has an intense off-season training program, has said before he wants to be the best, eats a special diet...why did he suddenly stop giving a damn about defense or putting in 100% effort?

Conflict with Maurice or a disagreement over the coaching strategy seem like reasonable inferences. Of course, he might have some nagging injury, or maybe it's something outside of hockey altogether - but I don't know if there's as strong a case for those.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I still have not read one convincing opinion on why it was a good idea to extend Maurice.

But there's little point of complaining, he will be the Jets coach for the foreseeable future.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I'm with you on the Ehlers stuff.

I'm not sure, if I was a player on the Jets, down 2-1 with 10 to go in a game where we really need the points in a playoff race, that I would react too positively to our PPG 1C being benched to "hold him accountable", though.

I think a lot of this desire to bench 55 and 26 is more frustration from the fans than anything else. How many times do we hear from the same fans that we've got Copp or Lowry out there with 2 minutes to go when you need a goal, also say that Wheeler and Scheifele should be benched? If those guys are benched, who else do you think is going to be out there?

I’m not sure if you’re responding to me about the benching. I say you play the best players possible when needing goals that is just common sense. When I say benching or sending a message, it would of course be at an opportune time. How else do you you get a player to play the right way if they haven’t been doing it for over a year now?

I agree they are adults and professionals, but some are certainly not listening. Is that coach or players or the relationship between the two? I have no idea but it drives me crazy as a paying fan.

 

[tbcwpg]

I’m not sure if you’re responding to me about the benching. I say you play the best players possible when needing goals that is just common sense. When I say benching or sending a message, it would of course be at an opportune time. How else do you you get a player to play the right way if they haven’t been doing it for over a year now?

I agree they are adults and professionals, but some are certainly not listening. Is that coach or players or the relationship between the two? I have no idea but it drives me crazy as a paying fan.

There aren't going to be many opportune times down the stretch here. They've had close games for the most part. They might be losing by a few but not because of 55 or 26, so do you sit them then because of three games prior?

I also disagree that they're struggling in their own end just because they're not listening. If that were true, that would be infinitely more concerning to me about the leadership group than their struggles back there. This isn't the only team whose skilled forwards aren't that great defensively.

 

[FFHockey]

I'm with you on the Ehlers stuff.

I'm not sure, if I was a player on the Jets, down 2-1 with 10 to go in a game where we really need the points in a playoff race, that I would react too positively to our PPG 1C being benched to "hold him accountable", though.

I think a lot of this desire to bench 55 and 26 is more frustration from the fans than anything else. How many times do we hear from the same fans that we've got Copp or Lowry out there with 2 minutes to go when you need a goal, also say that Wheeler and Scheifele should be benched? If those guys are benched, who else do you think is going to be out there?

I think at the end of the day many of us just want it to appear like 55 "gives a shit" (for lack of a better term) game in, game out. How can the guys in the dressing room look up to him as a leader? Him wearing an A is like it used to be in the minor hockey days...you wore a letter because you were one of the better players.

What would happen to Laine/Ehlers or Roslo if they consistently took crappy penalties like our Captain does? Take a seat young man. The Captain....not a chance he sees the pine. At least Wheeler always seems to be trying out there and shows some level of caring so I will give him that.

Maybe PoMo thinks it would be in bad taste to bench or call out a "leader"?

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

One of three things imo.

• Maurice isn’t a good coach.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster isn’t as good as we think.
• Maurice is a good coach and our roster is pretty good, we just need a new voice/shakeup.

I tend towards 3.

Curious, with a defensive group containing the following:

- Anthony Bitetto
- Nathan Beaulieu
- Carl Dahlstrom
- Luca Sbisa

Who in god's name thought our roster was better than it actually is?

 

[Duke749]

I think at the end of the day many of us just want it to appear like 55 "gives a shit" (for lack of a better term) game in, game out. How can the guys in the dressing room look up to him as a leader? Him wearing an A is like it used to be in the minor hockey days...you wore a letter because you were one of the better players.

What would happen to Laine/Ehlers or Roslo if they consistently took crappy penalties like our Captain does? Take a seat young man. The Captain....not a chance he sees the pine. At least Wheeler always seems to be trying out there and shows some level of caring so I will give him that.

Maybe PoMo thinks it would be in bad taste to bench or call out a "leader"?

Found a stat online that has PIM/TOI%. Ehlers and Wheeler are off by .1. Scheif is a little higher. Interesting look though. Laine and Connor rarely take penalties.