Coach Discussion: Coaching Thread 3

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pucka lucka

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No coach or GM can be blamed for losing when their franchise center and their 40 goal winger goes down in the first game of playoffs.

I'm glad people here don't run the show.
"FIRE HIMM!M!!!! ! FIREEEE REPALCE DA COACH AND HGM~!!!!"
Why do you think the 2 are connected? There is an important factor you haven’t considered. What do you suppose happens to a poster who thinks the coach sucks after a win? Do you think there is much discussion to be had then? Even when we lose we get posts like yours.
 

Whileee

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Why do you think the 2 are connected? There is an important factor you haven’t considered. What do you suppose happens to a poster who thinks the coach sucks after a win? Do you think there is much discussion to be had then? Even when we lose we get posts like yours.
I've posted plenty of Maurice critiques after wins. I agree, the results of a few games is not a suitable way to assess a coach, and even less a GM. Similarly, I'm not sure this season is a good barometer for how the team has been developed.
 

LowLefty

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I've posted plenty of Maurice critiques after wins. I agree, the results of a few games is not a suitable way to assess a coach, and even less a GM. Similarly, I'm not sure this season is a good barometer for how the team has been developed.


I agree (bold) -
My mistake is I always wonder why we are discussing over all development in the middle of a disaster - it's as if we can't see the forest for the trees.
The reason this is a "mistake" on my part is that I always assume (wrongly) that the discussion is focused on now when it's not - it's all encompassing at times where fans are looking two steps ahead and I'm two or three behind. I can't get my head around the big picture when the "trees" are on fire.
 

surixon

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I agree (bold) -
My mistake is I always wonder why we are discussing over all development in the middle of a disaster - it's as if we can't see the forest for the trees.
The reason this is a "mistake" on my part is that I always assume (wrongly) that the discussion is focused on now when it's not - it's all encompassing at times where fans are looking two steps ahead and I'm two or three behind. I can't get my head around the big picture when the "trees" are on fire.

Sure the fire can't be ignored and needs to be dealt with but a remediation plan will also need to developed for after its burns out. I think you can both engage in future planning while similataneously taking into consideration how abnormal this past year was. You aren't going to progress as an organization if you are only focused on the present with little thought of the future. Its how companies like Blockbuster and Kodak went belly up.
 

Benjamin Doveridge

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"Its how companies like Blockbuster and Kodak went belly up.”

Well 2 weeks ago Kodak stock went up 700%. Maybe the Jet’s future will be headed the same way when we pick up Lafreniere!
 

LowLefty

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Sure the fire can't be ignored and needs to be dealt with but a remediation plan will also need to developed for after its burns out. I think you can both engage in future planning while similataneously taking into consideration how abnormal this past year was. You aren't going to progress as an organization if you are only focused on the present with little thought of the future. Its how companies like Blockbuster and Kodak went belly up.


I get your point - it's the same one you mentioned in the other thread. I'm not suggesting we don't plan - that would be silly.
I am suggesting this is not the best time to evaluate our talent which is a crucial step in developing a plan.
 
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surixon

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I get your point - it's the same one you mentioned in the other thread. I'm not suggesting we don't plan - that would be silly.
I am suggesting this is not the best time to evaluate our talent with is a crucial step in developing a plan.

Fair enough.
 

Weezeric

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Next year.....

Some people might not like it, but Wheeler should be on 2nd line duty. Not top line.

Teams rely on their young stars for scoring.

Leadership is you know when its time to give way.............

Wheeler was 5th in 5v5 ice time last year. That has already happened.
 

JetsUK

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I agree (bold) -
My mistake is I always wonder why we are discussing over all development in the middle of a disaster - it's as if we can't see the forest for the trees.
The reason this is a "mistake" on my part is that I always assume (wrongly) that the discussion is focused on now when it's not - it's all encompassing at times where fans are looking two steps ahead and I'm two or three behind. I can't get my head around the big picture when the "trees" are on fire.

I agree, to a point. You don't gut the team and management after a season like this, which has been absolutely an aberration, with several high-impact events -- loss of Buff, Little injury -- that were beyond the reach of most team orgs. So any comprehensive evaluation can allow for these as the one-offs they were and not look to lay blame.

But player evaluation and deployment, systems design and implementation, a PP that has been wretched for a long time now, concerning underlying stats in a number of areas, insistence on a top/bottom 6 at a time when many teams have emphasized a more flexible attack -- why can't these get a closer look? It isn't like these are directly attributable to the loss of Buff and Little, and Chevy knew the D would be weakened by the loss of Trouba, Myers and yes, even Chairot before Buff pulled his no-show, just as he knew that the PK and "energy line" setups would be the worse for the loss of Tanev. Why wasn't he on the horn 24/7 to shore up those weak spots?

Many hockey pundits and analysts, including several on HFJ, have been sounding the alartm since the start of the 2018/2019 regular season. The alarms got still louder in 2019. What was the result? Chevy bought in AHL tweeners and plugs, played them over some promising in-house talent (Niku -- who knows what we have in him?) then added an actual reinforcement in DD, which was a great move, especially if we can keep him at a reasonable cost. The Copp re-upping was acrimonious and maybe risks losing an important player, JoMo and KC signings were decent value, so well done there.

So I get the caution, and the forest-for-the-trees issue. But if not now, when? Scheifele isn't going to be in his prime and on a sweet deal for much longer, we still don't have a true 2C, have holes at D, bleed chances on the counter, a dysfunctional PP and some still underperforming players, including a once-generational scorer who is now a not-quite power forward, and in Roslo an exciting talent no one seems to know how to use. We are two years removed from being a top team in the league without an obvious path back to the top.

This isn't about blame for me. This year has been hellish, the late surge in March was encouraging, and I'm happy for it to end with a great draft pick we don't screw up. But a GM is paid a ton to see two, 3, 5 steps ahead -- that's their job, just as a coach is paid a ton to get the absolute best out of whichever players are available and healthy. If you run the bench, you take responsibility for the bench. I am concerned, however, by the seeming contradiction in our team makeup (speed, skill. creativity) and how we've played much of the past two years (chaotic, running around in all zones, emphasis on a "heavy game," etc). I feel like Chevy and PM need to spend a few weeks getting on the same page, with burner phones so Chipman can't call them. And then we need to stop playing 2014/15 hockey with 2020 talent in a 2020 league.
 
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surixon

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I agree, to a point. You don't gut the team and management after a season like this, which has been absolutely an aberration, with several high-impact events -- loss of Buff, Little injury -- that were beyond the reach of most team orgs. So any comprehensive evaluation can allow for these as the one-offs they were and not look to lay blame.

But player evaluation and deployment, systems design and implementation, a PP that has been wretched for a long time now, concerning underlying stats in a number of areas, insistence on a top/bottom 6 at a time when many teams have emphasized a more flexible attack -- why can't these get a closer look? It isn't like these are directly attributable to the loss of Buff and Little, and Chevy knew the D would be weakened by the loss of Trouba, Myers and yes, even Chairot before Buff pulled his no-show, just as he knew that the PK and "energy line" setups would be the worse for the loss of Tanev. Why wasn't he on the horn 24/7 to shore up those weak spots?

Many hockey pundits and analysts, including several on HFJ, have been sounding the alartm since the start of the 2018/2019 regular season. The alarms got still louder in 2019. What was the result? Chevy bought in AHL tweeners and plugs, played them over some promising in-house talent (Niku -- who knows what we have in him?) then added an actual reinforcement in DD, which was a great move, especially if we can keep him at a reasonable cost. The Copp re-upping was acrimonious and maybe risks losing an important player, JoMo and KC signings were decent value, so well done there.

So I get the caution, and the forest-for-the-trees issue. But if not now, when? Scheifele isn't going to be in his prime and on a sweet deal for much longer, we still don't have a true 2C, have holes at D, bleed chances on the counter, a dysfunctional PP and some still underperforming players, including a once-generational scorer who is now a not-quite power forward, and in Roslo an exciting talent no one seems to know how to use. We are two years removed from being a top team in the league without an obvious path back to the top.

This isn't about blame for me. This year has been hellish, the late surge in March was encouraging, and I'm happy for it to end with a great draft pick we don't screw up. But a GM is paid a ton to see two, 3, 5 steps ahead -- that's their job, just as a coach is paid a ton to get the absolute best out of whichever players are available and healthy. If you run the bench, you take responsibility for the bench. I am concerned, however, by the seeming contradiction in our team makeup (speed, skill. creativity) and how we've played much of the past two years (chaotic, running around in all zones, emphasis on a "heavy game," etc). I feel like Chevy and PM need to spend a few weeks getting on the same page, with burner phones so Chipman can't call them. And then we need to stop playing 2014/15 hockey with 2020 talent in a 2020 league.

Excellent post.
 

ps241

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I agree, to a point. This season was absolutely an aberration, with several high-impact events -- loss of Buff, Little injury -- that were beyond the reach of most team orgs. So any comprehensive evaluation can allow for these as the one-offs they were and not look to lay blame.

But player evaluation and deployment, systems design and implementation, a PP that has been wretched for a long time now, concerning underlying stats in a number of areas, insistence on a top/bottom 6 at a time when many teams have emphasized a more flexible attack -- why can't these get a closer look? It isn't like these are directly attributable to the loss of Buff and Little, and Chevy knew the D would be weakened by the loss of Trouba, Myers and yes, even Chairot before Buff pulled his no-show, just as he knew that the PK and "energy line" setups would be the worse for the loss of Tanev. Why wasn't he on the horn 24/7 to shore up those weak spots?

Many hockey pundits and analysts, including several on HFJ, have been sounding the alartm since the start of the 2018/2019 regular season. The alarms got still louder in 2019. What was the result? Chevy bought in AHL tweeners and plugs, played them over some promising in-house talent (Niku -- who knows what we have in him?) then added an actual reinforcement in DD, which was a great move, especially if we can keep him at a reasonable cost. The Copp re-upping was acrimonious and maybe risks losing an important player, JoMo and KC signings were decent value, so well done there.

So I get the caution, and the forest-for-the-trees issue. But if not now, when? Scheifele isn't going to be in his prime and on a sweet deal for much longer, we still don't have a true 2C, have holes at D, bleed chances on the counter, a dysfunctional PP and some still underperforming players, including a once-generational scorer who is now a not-quite power forward, and in Roslo an exciting talent no one seems to know how to use. We are two years removed from being a top team in the league without an obvious path back to the top.

This isn't about blame for me. This year has been hellish, the late surge in March was encouraging, and I'm happy for it to end with a great draft pick we don't screw up. But a GM is paid a ton to see two, 3, 5 steps ahead -- that's their job, just as a coach is paid a ton to get the absolute best out of whichever players are available and healthy. If you run the bench, you take responsibility for the bench. I am concerned, however, by the seeming contradiction in our team makeup (speed, skill. creativity) and how we've played much of the past two years (chaotic, running around in all zones, emphasis on a "heavy game," etc). I feel like Chevy and PM need to spend a few weeks getting on the same page, with burner phones so Chipman can't call them. And then we need to stop playing 2014/15 hockey with 2020 talent in a 2020 league.

Edit: after I posted I realized this is the coaching and not the GM thread. When I get back to the office I will probably relocate my post.


None of what you are saying is unfair necessarily.

Here is how I see it:

From The get go Mark, Chevy, and his team decided they needed to build a culture where players would want to stay in Winnipeg. I think that shaped the Jets for a more conservative approach to building a contender. They felt they needed to find the balance of competing now and giving the vets a shot while building through the draft with their allotted picks....not more....not less. They did invest allot into bolstering their scouting department and they did spend on the development process but they never really stacked picks like a full rebuilding team.

- Chevy built methodically holding on to the old core from 2011 to 2017-18
- We did build up to the playoffs in 2013-14 and then decided to take a step back a bit after getting swept by the ducks but it was all half measures (not like we flipped Blake, Bryan, Toby, and Buff although we did move Ladd)
- The series of 1st round picks was impeccable (up to the Stanley debacle) and throw is Helle, Lowry, Copp and others and we were poised.
- We got lucky with a plug and play lottery win of Laine which bolstered that roster.
- The challenge was as we headed into 2017-18 it was evident our window was 2 seasons due to ELC advantage, cap leverage, and pending UFA and contract status.
- Chevy decided to sell off our 1st round picks in both seasons to go for it (which has left a bit of a hole)
- 2018-19 brought an end to the contender status but we still had a decent core.
-2019-20 was going to be a step back but with the exodus of Buff and the loss of Little it became a giant step back where we were propped up a Vezina goalie.

Now what?

Our current and future core is Scheif (27), Helle (27), Laine (22), Ehlers (24), Connor (23), and Morrissey (25). World class goalie, high end scoring #1 center, 3 x highly skilled one way scoring wingers, and a #2 D man that plays clean and safe. One advantage is we have most of these guys on really good long term contracts with the exception of the bolded. Next year Wheeler will most likely still be a key leader but his effectiveness as a core member will need to be established each season and there is a good chance he becomes more of a complementary asset.


Notwithstanding a lucky break we do not have any high end pedigree prospects in our pipe line that will join this core so what you see is currently what you get. We do have a nice D pipeline as far as depth and potential and I think we can fill out our top 4 from within or on value acquisitions (think DeMelo). A team can win a cup without an amazing D core. Both Chicago and Pittsburgh got it done with good but not exceptional D cores. I think our D replacements can be part of the Scheif Helle era as in as soon as next season but certainly within the next two seasons.

That leaves the obvious which is the massive hole at #2 center. Unless we win the lottery this year I don't think we can count on anyone we draft for 2 to 3 years.

It becomes pretty obvious to me if Little is on LTIR or even if he isn't we need to trade for or overpay for a #2 center starting next season.

We can't tread water this off season we need to get back to contender status right away or perhaps consider much bigger roster adjustments? Its not like we don't have really attractive assets on good contracts our issue is that our portfolio is over weighted in the scoring winger department and under represented at center. If we win the lottery I will re-post but for now my vote would be for a pretty aggressive off season reshaping the core of our roster. Its now or never with Mark and Helle at 27 who are our current top talents.
 

Howard Chuck

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Edit: after I posted I realized this is the coaching and not the GM thread. When I get back to the office I will probably relocate my post.


None of what you are saying is unfair necessarily.

Here is how I see it:

From The get go Mark, Chevy, and his team decided they needed to build a culture where players would want to stay in Winnipeg. I think that shaped the Jets for a more conservative approach to building a contender. They felt they needed to find the balance of competing now and giving the vets a shot while building through the draft with their allotted picks....not more....not less. They did invest allot into bolstering their scouting department and they did spend on the development process but they never really stacked picks like a full rebuilding team.

- Chevy built methodically holding on to the old core from 2011 to 2017-18
- We did build up to the playoffs in 2013-14 and then decided to take a step back a bit after getting swept by the ducks but it was all half measures (not like we flipped Blake, Bryan, Toby, and Buff although we did move Ladd)
- The series of 1st round picks was impeccable (up to the Stanley debacle) and throw is Helle, Lowry, Copp and others and we were poised.
- We got lucky with a plug and play lottery win of Laine which bolstered that roster.
- The challenge was as we headed into 2017-18 it was evident our window was 2 seasons due to ELC advantage, cap leverage, and pending UFA and contract status.
- Chevy decided to sell off our 1st round picks in both seasons to go for it (which has left a bit of a hole)
- 2018-19 brought an end to the contender status but we still had a decent core.
-2019-20 was going to be a step back but with the exodus of Buff and the loss of Little it became a giant step back where we were propped up a Vezina goalie.

Now what?

Our current and future core is Scheif (27), Helle (27), Laine (22), Ehlers (24), Connor (23), and Morrissey (25). World class goalie, high end scoring #1 center, 3 x highly skilled one way scoring wingers, and a #2 D man that plays clean and safe. One advantage is we have most of these guys on really good long term contracts with the exception of the bolded. Next year Wheeler will most likely still be a key leader but his effectiveness as a core member will need to be established each season and there is a good chance he becomes more of a complementary asset.


Notwithstanding a lucky break we do not have any high end pedigree prospects in our pipe line that will join this core so what you see is currently what you get. We do have a nice D pipeline as far as depth and potential and I think we can fill out our top 4 from within or on value acquisitions (think DeMelo). A team can win a cup without an amazing D core. Both Chicago and Pittsburgh got it done with good but not exceptional D cores. I think our D replacements can be part of the Scheif Helle era as in as soon as next season but certainly within the next two seasons.

That leaves the obvious which is the massive hole at #2 center. Unless we win the lottery this year I don't think we can count on anyone we draft for 2 to 3 years.

It becomes pretty obvious to me if Little is on LTIR or even if he isn't we need to trade for or overpay for a #2 center starting next season.

We can't tread water this off season we need to get back to contender status right away or perhaps consider much bigger roster adjustments? Its not like we don't have really attractive assets on good contracts our issue is that our portfolio is over weighted in the scoring winger department and under represented at center. If we win the lottery I will re-post but for now my vote would be for a pretty aggressive off season reshaping the core of our roster. Its now or never with Mark and Helle at 27 who are our current top talents.
Excellent points, especially regarding scheifele and helle’s age. A slow progression, I.e. waiting three years for a 2cb will put two of our most valuable players at 30 years old. We’ve seen what this team looks like without 55 and I can only imagine without helle.

Add to all of this the dissatisfaction of Laine playing with Eakin, Copp etc as 2c and we may lose him too.

I don’t think the very immediate need at 2c can be overstated. It’s not only a position of need, but also affects many other aspects of the team.
 

Whileee

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I think the Jets need a good haul from this year's and next year's draft. They don't need a Lafreniere, but they need to pick up at least one player that can make a difference in the top-6, and another player or two that can out-play bottom 6 roles. Ideally, that would include a 2C and a really good winger prospect.

I'm still not sure what we have in KVes, but I think he might make another step into a strong middle-6 F.

I think the D is in reasonably good shape if the Jets can re-sign DeMelo and Samberg and Heinola live up to expectations of being at least 2nd-pairing quality. The Jets could really use a big, strong minute-munching defensive D that can move the puck, and that's Samberg's profile. Heinola is a bit more of a mystery in terms of potential, but he could be a good 2nd pairing D and run a power play.
 
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pucka lucka

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I've always sensed an odd vibe from Maurice. It's almost as if he is disassociated from the game and doesn't "get" winning. Somehow he has talked his way into being the (edit-almost) most tenured coach in NHL history. It's bizarre.
It's become clear to me what he is. He thrives in small markets by getting a few high profile players to love playing for him and is just competent enough to remain an NHL coach in cities where winning is secondary to just having a damn team. Look what people say about him. Love working with him, love playing for him. Nobody talks about winning. He doesn't do that. Our ownership group has chosen mediocrity over the risks of aggressively builder winners.

It's obviously harder to do in Winnipeg than Chicago, but I lived through the Jets 1.0. I am tired of just being happy to be here. It's a shortsighted approach because Winnipegers are used to being not quite X compared to other cities. They long lost the awesome enthusiasm this team had for the first 5 years. It's not just hockey ops. This org feel has always felt like it think it's better than it's fans.
 

Howard Chuck

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I think the Jets need a good haul from this year's and next year's draft. They don't need a Lafreniere, but they need to pick up at least one player that can make a difference in the top-6, and another player or two that can out-play bottom 6 roles. Ideally, that would include a 2C and a really good winger prospect.

I'm still not sure what we have in KVes, but I think he might make another step into a strong middle-6 F.

I think the D is in reasonably good shape if the Jets can re-sign DeMelo and Samberg and Heinola live up to expectations of being at least 2nd-pairing quality. The Jets could really use a big, strong minute-munching defensive D that can move the puck, and that's Samberg's profile. Heinola is a bit more of a mystery in terms of potential, but he could be a good 2nd pairing D and run a power play.

I can't argue with our need to draft well, as we certainly need to keep the cupboards full, but we really need help immediately, as in next year. I don't know if you meant you are hoping for someone from the upcoming draft to make a difference where we need it , by next season. That seems like a long shot.

I think going without a very good 2c (or preferably a 1b)for another season is going to put us back years in our process, as some of our top players start aging. One of the things that has always made me optimistic about our team (aside from some obvious skilled players) is our young age. We will still have a good young core for a while, but watching our team without 55 & 29 makes me nervous!
 

DRC

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The Boarding Pass: Former Flame Matt Stajan blueprints a Jets comeback

51:30 Murat asks Stajan about Paul Maurice heading into game 4 (he played for Paul in Toronto for 2 yrs).
 

AWSAA

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Wheeler was 5th in 5v5 ice time last year. That has already happened.

No, it hasn't. He was handed his top line spot back for the stretch run & playoffs. His ice time was trending up. When Ehlers (or Laf :crossfing) replaces Blake on PP1 I'll believe it.
 
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Evil Little

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As far as the coaching goes, I think Maurice is a good coach, a good guy and a terrific media personality.

That does NOT Mean that I don’t have some criticisms. I think people can have opinions on some of his decisions without being labeled.

I agree almost entirely with your assessment of Maurice, but there's also the added complication of coaches occasionally losing the room, and the way the Jets have played since 2018 (and/or chosen not to play, in the case of Trouba, Byfuglien, Laine for months at a time) leads me to believe that he's past his effective years in Winnipeg. It stinks but this team is way too talented to be getting outshot so drastically night-in, night-out.
 

surixon

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Well, elimination game and he doubles down on special teams that were clearly getting shredded.

I dont care that we were down players there was just some absolutely garbage personnel decisions on our special teams and just bizarre tactics. Yeah let's keep trying to give Wheeler the puck in a shooting position. Hes a damn playmaker with a poor shot.

Mauroce with perhaps his worst coaching performance as a Jet tonight. Showed zero creativity and his stubbornness was on full display. If ar first, second, third etc it doesn't work lets keep doing it. I honestly think a high school coach could have derived better tactics.

He's going to get a mulligan next year and I feel we are once again in for a disappointing year.
 

Mbraunm

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Well, elimination game and he doubles down on special teams that were clearly getting shredded.

I dont care that we were down players there was just some absolutely garbage personnel decisions on our special teams and just bizarre tactics. Yeah let's keep trying to give Wheeler the puck in a shooting position. Hes a damn playmaker with a poor shot.

Mauroce with perhaps his worst coaching performance as a Jet tonight. Showed zero creativity and his stubbornness was on full display. If ar first, second, third etc it doesn't work lets keep doing it. I honestly think a high school coach could have derived better tactics.

He's going to get a mulligan next year and I feel we are once again in for a disappointing year.

Agreed with your assessment. We will definitely lose Laine. There is no way that Laine stays with Maurice as coach...not a chance.
 
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