Speculation: Coach Killers?

[MessierII]

I mean yeah they're the better team, no question. But I can't imagine the players were all that thrilled about being blamed for every Smith gaffe.

I wish someone was yelling at them more often because they’re making more gaffs than ever.

 

[MessierII]

If Keith wants to play have him unretire and say he doesn't want to play for anyone but for the Oilers and then sign here for 850k.

I don't think it'd magically turn things around.

The Kane injury and Puljujarvi + Yamamoto scoring nothing are much bigger problems.

No they aren’t. Puljujarvi and yamo producing just means we score a bit more. Scoring isn’t our problem. That’s not going to bring down the goals against.

 

[Soundwave]

No they aren’t. Puljujarvi and yamo producing just means we score a bit more. Scoring isn’t our problem. That’s not going to bring down the goals against.

With Kane scoring wasn't a problem.

Without him it's a problem.

Oilers This Season w/Kane: 3.8 GF per game ... pretty close to the same number they had in the playoffs.

Oilers This Season since Kane injury: 2.6 GF per game

2.6 GF isn't going to get it done. Not with the amount of mistakes and poor defence this team has with or without Keith.

The 5 on 5 offence especially is actually in the bottom half of the league now, that's a red flag for a team that has McDavid and Draisaitl.

 

[MessierII]

Without him it's a problem.

Oilers This Season w/Kane: 3.8 GF per game ... pretty close to the same number they had in the playoffs.

Oilers This Season since Kane injury: 2.6 GF per game

2.6 GF isn't going to get it done. Not with the amount of mistakes and poor defence this team has with or without Keith.

The 5 on 5 offence especially is actually in the bottom half of the league now, that's a red flag for a team that has McDavid and Draisaitl.

You know what’s not going to get it done? The 3.666 goals against we’ve averaged over those same games.

 

[Oilhawks]

You know what’s not going to get it done? The 3.666 goals against we’ve averaged over those same games.

Especially the bolded part

 

[BlackDogg]

Is it possible that the elite players on the team are sending the message that they can take the team on their back and that the peons don't need to rise to the occasion (whether directly or indirectly)? Basically only Hyman pushes and actually achieves while the bottom 6 lives in mediocre eternity no matter who they bring in. Coaches can't seem to solve the difference in skill level where they actually play as a team.

Or maybe its just Holland bringing in chaff.

 

[Soundwave]

You know what’s not going to get it done? The 3.666 goals against we’ve averaged over those same games.

They’ve been allowing similarish numbers for a while, its not just a issue from this season.

They will never be a top defensive team as constructed, they have to score with a cushion to give them leeway for their bad D because 2.6 gaa isn’t happening here.

 

[MessierII]

They’ve been allowing similarish numbers for a while, its not just a issue from this season.

They will never be a top defensive team as constructed, they have to score with a cushion to give them leeway for their bad D because 2.6 gaa isn’t happening here.

Because it’s been an issue for a while it’s ok? You want to win a cup you start there. You don’t depend on scoring 4-5 goals a game. That’s not a thing.

 

[Soundwave]

Because it’s been an issue for a while it’s ok? You want to win a cup you start there. You don’t depend on scoring 4-5 goals a game. That’s not a thing.

This team isn’t built to keep opponents at like 2.5 GA, was anyone even expecting that this year?

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Teams with poor defense don't win, they never have.

Nurse isn't a #1D, Ceci isn't a #2D, and none of the remaining defensemen are #3.

It's really that simple. We can change goalies or rearrange the bottom-6 all day, it's not going to change the result.

Cup winning teams have Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Letang, (prime) Keith.

The rest is all moot. Our defense has never been close. Our last #1D was Chris Pronger and we were one win away from the Cup. Go figure.

 

[Ninety7]

Teams with poor defense don't win, they never have.

Nurse isn't a #1D, Ceci isn't a #2D, and none of the remaining defensemen are #3.

It's really that simple. We can change goalies or rearrange the bottom-6 all day, it's not going to change the result.

Cup winning teams have Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Letang, (prime) Keith.

The rest is all moot. Our defense has never been close. Our last #1D was Chris Pronger and we were one win away from the Cup. Go figure.

Some people on this forum will tell you that Darnell is mini chris pronger.

 

[McDrai]

It’s pretty simply really. We’ve never placed an emphasis on defense first hockey. Maybe the management thought they could outscore their problems with our skilled forwards (even going back to the days of Hall) or just too incompetent to build a decent dcore.

We will continue to flounder unless the defense is addressed. If a team like Boston is able to do it on the fly then we should be able to do the same. Unfortunately, we have a GM who doesn’t know how to build a team in the salary cap era. We are right up against the cap while being a mediocre hockey team. Not quite like the decade of darkness but still feels hopeless with this current team makeup.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I wish someone was yelling at them more often because they’re making more gaffs than ever.

Again, yelling and blaming others for something that was your fault isn't endearing.

 

[Cloned]

Was this the lazy spin-o-rama pass into the slot where no Oiler was but 4 Devils were leading them to come up ice with numbers and 2 Grade A scoring chances. Happened at 16:24 of the second and really kick started the Devils into dominating the rest of the second period. Shots were 13-6 Edmonton at that point and the gap on the shot clock was promptly closed and 2 goals scored. Personally, I think that play was the turning point from the team playing fairly responsibly and keeping a really good Devils team somewhat in check into a gong show of chances against.

View attachment 611349

I don’t remember the exact details of the play before. I just remember seeing Nurse caught up ice and not hustling back.

 

[Oilhawks]

Teams with poor defense don't win, they never have.

Nurse isn't a #1D, Ceci isn't a #2D, and none of the remaining defensemen are #3.

It's really that simple. We can change goalies or rearrange the bottom-6 all day, it's not going to change the result.

Cup winning teams have Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Letang, (prime) Keith.

The rest is all moot. Our defense has never been close. Our last #1D was Chris Pronger and we were one win away from the Cup. Go figure.

I agree, but don’t think you need a 1D, provided you have enough D depth and the forwards have defensive ability, which the Oilers definitely don’t have anyhow. Penguins won it all one year without Letang, no? It is possible, but less likely.

Nurse isn’t going anywhere. He’s a “2D” on a good team.

Nurse - X
X - Ceci
Kulak - Bouchard

Would work in theory, provide that the 2 Xs are quality defenders in those positions.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Teams with poor defense don't win, they never have.

Nurse isn't a #1D, Ceci isn't a #2D, and none of the remaining defensemen are #3.

It's really that simple. We can change goalies or rearrange the bottom-6 all day, it's not going to change the result.

Cup winning teams have Makar, Hedman, Pietrangelo, Letang, (prime) Keith.

The rest is all moot. Our defense has never been close. Our last #1D was Chris Pronger and we were one win away from the Cup. Go figure.

Just to add to the thought, its a hard one because to get that top dman you usually have to draft one and despite all our high picks its not like we ever made the wrong decision leaving the surefire top D on the board:

2011, if we were going to draft a D over Nuge it would have been Larsson, who we ended up with anyways and topped out at arguably a #3D in his prime. In fact we did very well yo get Klefbom at 19 as Dougie Hamilton was the only better dman in the whole draft year.

2012 was always going to be Yakupov or Murray. And if we didn't want Murray as the D we would have traded down for Reinhart.

2013 we actually traded up to get the best D available in Nurse at 7 and shrewdly picked him over Ristolainen (controversial at the time). Going down the first round the closest D that resembles elite was Theodore at 26 otherwise Nurse was the next best D of the first after Seth Jones was picked ahead.

2014 was Draisaitl
2015 was McDavid

2016 Couldn't have passed Puljujarvi at 4 who was a consensus top-3 pick. The first D after him was Juolevi. Sergachev would have been a reach and probably warranted a trade-down but is he really the elite dman to lead the team to a cup?

2017 Yamamoto at 22 was the right pick looking who was taken the rest of the round, not a decent d-man in sight.

I know there's been quite a few elite dmen drafted outside the 1st round but at that point its a bit of a pickem.

Takes quite a bit of luck and ofcourse they can be acquired (Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Burns, Weber, Hamilton again, ect) so of we're going to point fingers it would be straight at the pro scouting and past GMs for not prioritising them.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I agree, but don’t think you need a 1D, provided you have enough D depth and the forwards have defensive ability, which the Oilers definitely don’t have anyhow. Penguins won it all one year without Letang, no? It is possible, but less likely.

Nurse isn’t going anywhere. He’s a “2D” on a good team.

Nurse - X
X - Ceci
Kulak - Bouchard

Would work in theory, provide that the 2 Xs are quality defenders in those positions.

This team took a massive hit with Klefbom's career ending injury and Larsson walking. They were at perfect veteran age and experience to complement the maturing forward group. Both bigger bodies and more inclined to play a harder defending game. Lost a quality veteran second d-pair. Holland's re-shape on the fly netted Ceci who has been solid and essentially opened the door for Barrie's return.

Unfortunately, the re-treaded d-corp is one dimensional finesse style of play. Don't defend hard, physical and abrasive enough in their blue paint. Not great decision makers when under pressure. Most definitely not helped enough by the forward group with the same high work rate brought to scoring goal nor the sturdy disciplined own zone commitment to help the d-corp and goaltenders to suppress goals against. Not good enough to back end a deep playoff hopeful team.

I'd like to see Nurse simplify his game to focus on more structured defending. It would be his biggest leadership contribution. I like his pretty formidable tool kit but way too much roam in his game. Surprising to me is how many puck battles the lean body type Nurse version loses.

Agree with your assessment. I've long felt the Oil need a top pair d complement for Nurse (wishful thinking) and second pair d both who are hard, aggressive own zone goal suppression defenders.

 

[Oilhawks]

This team took a massive hit with Klefbom's career ending injury and Larsson walking. They were at perfect veteran age and experience to complement the maturing forward group. Both bigger bodies and more inclined to play a harder defending game. Lost a quality veteran second d-pair. Holland's re-shape on the fly netted Ceci who has been solid and essentially opened the door for Barrie's return.

Unfortunately, the re-treaded d-corp is one dimensional finesse style of play. Don't defend hard, physical and abrasive enough in their blue paint. Not great decision makers when under pressure. Most definitely not helped enough by the forward group with the same high work rate brought to scoring goal nor the sturdy disciplined own zone commitment to help the d-corp and goaltenders to suppress goals against. Not good enough to back end a deep playoff hopeful team.

I'd like to see Nurse simplify his game to focus on more structured defending. It would be his biggest leadership contribution. I like his pretty formidable tool kit but way too much roam in his game. Surprising to me is how many puck battles the lean body type Nurse version loses.

Agree with your assessment. I've long felt the Oil need a top pair d complement for Nurse (wishful thinking) and second pair d both who are hard, aggressive own zone goal suppression defenders.

My hope with the top pair RD is it's a veteran toward the end of their career (cheaper), not sure who, with the hope that Bouchard learns to use the big body in the way that Larsson did (who was originally billed as an OFD) and replaces that player on the top pairing in a couple seasons. If Manson can't bring that out that physicality, I'm not sure who can.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

My hope with the top pair RD is it's a veteran toward the end of their career (cheaper), not sure who, with the hope that Bouchard learns to use the big body in the way that Larsson did (who was originally billed as an OFD) and replaces that player on the top pairing in a couple seasons. If Manson can't bring that out that physicality, I'm not sure who can.

Interesting. Not sure what older veteran top pair d might look like? I view it as more an optimal situation to improve the d from top down but feel likelihood of a 1D and 2 pair D pick up to be likely unrealistic. A strong veteran 2nd pairing D will take hella work but must happen.

Larsson was projected to have high two way ability but the offence stalled and getting fed 70% d-zone starts he was positioned to be the hard, physical cycle breaker guy in Edmonton. Interesting in Seattle that he's getting more balanced zone starts with big minutes and produced more offence (at least his first year). Personally, I don't see Bouchard evolving into a physically hard and mean defender like Larsson. What we need to see if Bouchard's speed of decision making speed up with more experience which will help his game immensely. But for sure more physical engagement within the blue paint and battle areas will help him too.

The Oil defense as re-constructed is well below the quality needed as a vital spine to a deep playoff contending team. Biggest element missing is veteran physical, shutdown type(s).

 

[Oilhawks]

Interesting. Not sure what older veteran top pair d might look like? I view it as more an optimal situation to improve the d from top down but feel likelihood of a 1D and 2 pair D pick up to be likely unrealistic. A strong veteran 2nd pairing D will take hella work but must happen.

Larsson was projected to have high two way ability but the offence stalled and getting fed 70% d-zone starts he was positioned to be the hard, physical cycle breaker guy in Edmonton. Interesting in Seattle that he's getting more balanced zone starts with big minutes and produced more offence (at least his first year). Personally, I don't see Bouchard evolving into a physically hard and mean defender like Larsson. What we need to see if Bouchard's speed of decision making speed up with more experience which will help his game immensely. But for sure more physical engagement within the blue paint and battle areas will help him too.

The Oil defense as re-constructed is well below the quality needed as a vital spine to a deep playoff contending team. Biggest element missing is veteran physical, shutdown type(s).

I really don't have any idea who might be available or who would fit that mold. I'm thinking if they can find someone exiting their prime that is undervalued that is maybe a 2/3 it might work. I'll poke around rosters a bit and see if anyone comes to mind and quote this post if so.

The story was that Stevens (I think it was him, but may be mixed up) helped mold Larsson into a meaner player. But the player also has to want to do that. Bouchard has rarely shown such a desire, but who knows? I think it's worth trying to push him into that, but he has to get back up to speed on positional defense etc, puck movement confidence like you said

I felt like there was potential for the players to fill these spots but any of the D with bite are either too low on skill (Nemo), or too young (Munzenberger) or too unproven (Desharnais). If Woody and Manson are adamant about running 11-7 I'd like to see them give Kesselring and Desharnais a go. They should see what they have with these players anyhow as the time to 'make a decision' is coming, if I'm not mistaken their waiver exemption expires soon.

 

[unicornBLOOD]

Off-topic, but since so many posts comparing the D problem to Vancouver - he's a scary thought. You could actually combine the rosters of Edm/ Vancouver and while you'd end up with an incredibly deep collection of forwards - possibly the best ever - the combined team could still barely field an average NHL defensive corps.

Nurse - Quinn Hughes
Ceci - Barrie
OEL - Bouchard

Kulak, Ethan Bear

Several teams have a better group than that, IMO, to say nothing of the awful cap hit if you include all of Nurse, Hughes and OEL.

ya, that's pretty sad for sure. Edmonton has had problems drafting and developing D for years now. The Oil have taken some swings in the first round and just haven't been able to find that great D.

Nurse is fine, he was a top ten pick, he's a top pairing D, but he's far from elite, and he's not capable of anchoring a below average D core, he needs help.

Bouchard has his moments and is still young, but this has been a rough first quarter of the year for him, too early to tell, but he doesn't look like he's going to be elite.

Broberg, still young, but doesn't even look close. If you can't crack this D core, that's not a good sign.

Klefbom was a solid D, had some issues, but had talent too. It's too bad that we'll never know what level he would of been able to take his game to.

We got lucky and stole Justin Schultz, then we got unlucky and lost Moreno is the opposite fashion. Schultz had too many holes in his game. Moreno, on the other hand, looks like a real good, young D. Too bad, he would of been a lot of help here.

So, we haven't done horrible with our drafting of D in the first round, but we also haven't knocked it out the park either.


As for rounds 2 and on, the Oil have had their issues finding gold, both in terms of D and everything else. Just wish this team could find a Parayko or a Fox or a Moreno in the later rounds and hang on to them. It's pretty clear that non of our top end D picks are going to be a Makar, a Josi, a Hedman, a Seider, and without one of those studs, you need depth, and we don't have a stud or depth, and that's an issue.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

The Oilers start each game down by 12.4 mil.

Dead cap space = 4.2 mil
Kane = 5.2 mil
Yamamoto = 3 mil

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The Oilers start each game down by 12.4 mil.

Dead cap space = 4.2 mil
Kane = 5.2 mil
Yamamoto = 3 mil

Don't forget the 5 million from Jack Campbell

 

[joestevens29]

The Oilers start each game down by 12.4 mil.

Dead cap space = 4.2 mil
Kane = 5.2 mil
Yamamoto = 3 mil

Palat 6mil
Blackwood 2.8mil
Johnsson(Buried) 2.775
Dead Cap 2.2mil

 

[SwedishFire]

Defensemen incapable of defending and that’s been the story for years.

No one of McDavid and Draisaitl is aa Bergeon/Barjov type. Wich is to bad.
While if any of them goes defence, all fsns go mayhem on them for not producing.

So, thats that.
The whole team should learn to play defence for eachother.
An elite defensive center / R winger would be great here.
Someone who inspires the other young guys to follow. I think Nuge and Hyman are the only ones here that goes with example defensivly.

Holla d should stop sitti g on his hands, and go find a great D and RW. Both with great work ethic.