Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

[tarheelhockey]

Watching some late 90's highlights with Forslund on the call though, I can say, he sounded pretty bad to me. He's much much better now than he was back then. Guys usually take time to get really good. I didn't get to listen to them regularly until I got Center Ice in 2002, and by the, they were pretty good on the call.

I’m glad I’m not just hallucinating that Forslund was less than stellar in the early days. I remember not really enjoying Canes broadcasts in that era, and I’ve always thought it was just me having bad taste at the time or something.

As far as Kaiton, I was a big fan. When I wasn't in person, I listened to our games the Cup year via Chuck as I had no other options. But I can also say he rarely comes up these days except as an occasional dig on ownership. Not many really care about the radio call these days. I know I haven't listened to a radio feed since 06 and won't be anytime soon. Even on a phone in the car it's just as easy to pull up the TV broadcast on my phone.

I listen to the odd game on the radio for one reason or another, and I’ve experienced zero decline in quality since switching from Kaiton to Forslund. This is one of the benefits of having a radio-style PBP guy. Forslund isn’t the type of announcer to let the color guy talk over significant action, or to leave dead air. He doesn’t make vague comments. The simulcast PBP is barely distinguishable from an ordinary radio broadcast.

From the Checkers:

This is just an incredibly bad look. An acrimonious split between the organizations just seems so unnecessary and so sad. A decade of community building being flushed away.

 

[Joe McGrath]

[QUOTE="HisIceness, post: 171994342, member: 109066] But since no one will be attending games for two years, I guess it doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

There’s your real answer. He’s taking every cent he can get in affiliate fees and an organization that doesn’t need to be propped up by the parent club financially in the event of them not being able to actually sell tickets. Also with the amount of rinks in the area, Chicago is a possibility of a place for a full division of AHL teams to play all their games.

 

[HisIceness]

I'm not familiar w/ this podcast but I echo everything written in this letter. Unfortunate it may not do us any good but it should give the organization an idea of the kind of backlash they are going to receive and the risk they are taking by doing this. Just need to add that everyone that joins the Wolves ends up unhappy and they all celebrate when they break ties. Ever wonder why the Blackhawks say hell no to them?

 

[hblueridgegal]

Why do so many of the club’s moves often have such a shady and tacky tone to them? Why do we rarely control the message? It’s no wonder the rest of the league thinks we are broke as a joke.

All of the One Carolina tweets and promotions are looking less than authentic. Not sure they realize how many in NC take their fandoms to heart.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The owner made his billions off of subprime auto loans. I don’t think he cares how his moves are perceived in the public eye.

 

[Svechhammer]

I know we have a few fans from Charlotte here, but in the grand scheme, that area has never latched onto the Canes and likely never will. The Checkers didn't win over that area like we thought it would and if we can find a better deal elsewhere, might as well explore it.

Put it this way, has having the Bulls make the Triangle a hotbed of Tampa Bay Rays fans in the 20+ years they've been affiliated? not even close.

 

[WreckingCrew]

I know we have a few fans from Charlotte here, but in the grand scheme, that area has never latched onto the Canes and likely never will. The Checkers didn't win over that area like we thought it would and if we can find a better deal elsewhere, might as well explore it.

Put it this way, has having the Bulls make the Triangle a hotbed of Tampa Bay Rays fans in the 20+ years they've been affiliated? not even close.

I think you underestimate the amount of Canes gear and talk you hear at the games and throughout Charlotte now, Bunch of Jerks shirts showing up everywhere, people on the street commenting on Canes gear (actually having this happen in Winston Salem now), talk about the Storm Surge, etc. I can tell you, 10 years ago, there was very little of that in Charlotte...it was Checkers fans and that was pretty much it. They even put Canes games on in bars, 10 years ago you had to ask if there was a TV free that you could have them change it to. It takes time to foster that relationship, the first 5 years it was pretty minimal, both teams were struggling. With recent success, Canes being in the headlines more, Checkers Calder Cup, that relationship really seemed like it was starting to flourish. I've been to more Canes games the past 5 years than previously and a lot has to do with that relationship, there's Checkers fans that make road trips up there for games.

But whatever, I'm a Checkers fan first either way

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think you underestimate the amount of Canes gear and talk you hear at the games and throughout Charlotte now, Bunch of Jerks shirts showing up everywhere, people on the street commenting on Canes gear (actually having this happen in Winston Salem now), talk about the Storm Surge, etc. I can tell you, 10 years ago, there was very little of that in Charlotte...it was Checkers fans and that was pretty much it. They even put Canes games on in bars, 10 years ago you had to ask if there was a TV free that you could have them change it to. It takes time to foster that relationship, the first 5 years it was pretty minimal, both teams were struggling. With recent success, Canes being in the headlines more, Checkers Calder Cup, that relationship really seemed like it was starting to flourish. I've been to more Canes games the past 5 years than previously and a lot has to do with that relationship, there's Checkers fans that make road trips up there for games.

But whatever, I'm a Checkers fan first either way

Genuine question. How much of that is because of the Canes / Checkers relationship vs. the past 10 years, the Canes were terrible, had no identity and frankly, weren't even that popular in the triangle? Like you said, recent success has really changed things (both in the Triangle and outside of it). When Dundon took over, the Canes have been in the media almost constantly. Winning clearly helps the most, but the marketing aspect (storm surge, bunch of jerks, Whalers night, etc..) has been a complete 180 from what we've become accustomed to over 10 years. I get it though, if you have a shitty team, no amount marketing is going to help, as we saw with attendance and general apathy towards the Canes in prior years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer the AHL affiliation to stay Charlotte for all the reasons you and others posted, just wanted to get your feel for how much of it is likely attributed to the checkers/Canes relationship vs. Canes now winning and the Dundon marketing aspect? I realize it's impossible to tell for sure so just wanted your view on it.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Genuine question. How much of that is because of the Canes / Checkers relationship vs. the past 10 years, the Canes were terrible, had no identity and frankly, weren't even that popular in the triangle? Like you said, recent success has really changed things (both in the Triangle and outside of it). When Dundon took over, the Canes have been in the media almost constantly. Winning clearly helps the most, but the marketing aspect (storm surge, bunch of jerks, Whalers night, etc..) has been a complete 180 from what we've become accustomed to over 10 years. I get it though, if you have a shitty team, no amount marketing is going to help, as we saw with attendance and general apathy towards the Canes in prior years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer the AHL affiliation to stay Charlotte for all the reasons you and others posted, just wanted to get your feel for how much of it is likely attributed to the checkers/Canes relationship vs. Canes now winning and the Dundon marketing aspect? I realize it's impossible to tell for sure so just wanted your view on it.

I definitely think there has been a sizeable surge recently due to the marketing with the Canes and their recent success and people giving a **** about them again (like you said, success breeds that). And it helps that there are finally ex-checkers on the Canes (rather than the flame-out Boychuk's/Murphy's of the world). But that success has only been the past 2 years (for both teams really)...it's a surge on top of what I've seen as a general upward trend. Like I said, 10 years ago and the first few years you saw nothing Canes related, but every year I've seen more and more gear crossover, people talk about ex-Checkers on the Canes and follow them more closely, there's a vested interest in seeing Checkers succeed and then making it to our NHL squad. It's easy to follow Foegele and Necas because they're our locally televised NHL team! The fans are a bit more understanding when they lose players to trades/callups because they're going to play for "our" NHL team...that's something you definitely don't get when they're feeding to a non-local team (Checkers fans used to HATE the Hartford/NYR affiliation because our roster changed at least 1-2x per week), not that that affects the Canes fans.

Again, I know I'm biased in all this because I'm more vested in the Checkers than the Canes, and to me that connection is vital, so take it with a rightful grain of salt/skepticism. I'm probably overestimating the connection a bit because it's so strong for me, DW/Dundon are probably underestimating...so probably somewhere in the middle is the reality lol

@HisIceness feel free to tell me I'm crazy and seeing through my own rose-colored glasses

 

[emptyNedder]

The owner made his billions off of subprime auto loans. I don’t think he cares how his moves are perceived in the public eye.

The elephant in the room is will he treat the Canes the same if an opportunity arises.

Why do so many of the club’s moves often have such a shady and tacky tone to them?

The "three-year out" has always struck me as the shadiest. I can't recall any other person/group buying a major league franchise acknowledge such an arrangement.

 

[Svechhammer]

The elephant in the room is he will treat the Canes the same if an opportunity arises.

The "three-year out" has always struck me as the shadiest. I can't recall any other person/group buying a major league franchise acknowledge such an arrangement.

Honestly, though... He's also been very much on record saying that he, nor anyone else he knew, didn't buy a sports franchise for the immediate return on investment. You don't make 20x your initial investment by selling 36 months later, you do it by selling 20+ years later. Sports ownership of a major (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, maybe MLS) franchise in North America is a stupidly lucrative venture to get yourself into. Even when the books say you are losing money, you are making it in spades. Hell, its such a racket that these billionaire owners routinely get public money to build their fancy arenas that double as extravagant playhouses for them.

I know about this 3 year out. I also know that it would be a very poor business decision to bail now given the expected ROI over the long haul, and Dundon didn't make his billions by making bad business decisions.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The elephant in the room is he will treat the Canes the same if an opportunity arises.

I’m not going to spend a minute of time worrying about that right now, but if there is ever a rumor out there from a semi-credible source, I’ll certainly not dismiss it. I’m under no illusion about what he would or wouldn’t do.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I know we have a few fans from Charlotte here, but in the grand scheme, that area has never latched onto the Canes and likely never will. The Checkers didn't win over that area like we thought it would and if we can find a better deal elsewhere, might as well explore it.

Put it this way, has having the Bulls make the Triangle a hotbed of Tampa Bay Rays fans in the 20+ years they've been affiliated? not even close.

As someone who remained primarily as a Bruins fan for over a decade after the Hurricanes moved here, specifically because Boston was the Checkers’ original affiliate and the Canes gave me zero reason to cheer for them from Charlotte, the Checkers’ affiliation definitely does matter to the long term growth of hockey in NC. In 12 years I, a native North Carolinian who was already primarily a hockey fan, went to one regular season game and two playoff games (in 2 of 3 cases to cheer AGAINST the Canes) and the draft. It took me physically moving to the Triangle to really start giving a **** about this organization, and it should NOT have been that hard a sell. If the Canes had simply affiliated with the Checkers to begin with, that picture would have looked very different.

This entire franchise exists on the principle that places which aren’t already raging hockey hotbeds are still worth investing in. The idea that if it isn’t a hotbed after 10 years (some of which didn’t even involve a dysfunctional shitshow!) then **** em, its time to pull the plug, is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Svechhammer]

Genuine question. How much of that is because of the Canes / Checkers relationship vs. the past 10 years, the Canes were terrible, had no identity and frankly, weren't even that popular in the triangle? Like you said, recent success has really changed things (both in the Triangle and outside of it). When Dundon took over, the Canes have been in the media almost constantly. Winning clearly helps the most, but the marketing aspect (storm surge, bunch of jerks, Whalers night, etc..) has been a complete 180 from what we've become accustomed to over 10 years. I get it though, if you have a shitty team, no amount marketing is going to help, as we saw with attendance and general apathy towards the Canes in prior years.

Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer the AHL affiliation to stay Charlotte for all the reasons you and others posted, just wanted to get your feel for how much of it is likely attributed to the checkers/Canes relationship vs. Canes now winning and the Dundon marketing aspect? I realize it's impossible to tell for sure so just wanted your view on it.

Yeah I think you are dead on here. I think the reason for the surge in popularity in areas like Charlotte is much in the same as it is for the surge here in Raleigh. The team matters. Whether its through the Storm Surge, the Bunch of Jerks, Svech and his lacrosse goals, or even Ayers and the meltdown that caused in Toronto, they seem to always be in the media lately for fun ways that gets front page headlines on major sites. The previous 10 years they were a footnote on the sport, where it was easier to ignore them than to talk about them. For whatever reason, its getting very difficult to ignore this franchise anymore. And all of this is before you factor in the young roster chock full of talented players who had a run to the Eastern Conference Finals last year, and played large portions of this season as if they have potential to be a legitimate contending team in the very near future.

I think all of that is playing into the popularity around the region rather than minor league affiliations. In fact, I kind of scoff at the notion that the Checkers being affiliated is the reason that the Canes are on TV in Charlotte. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think it helps, but its not nearly as important as its being made to be. Case in point, over this same timeframe, you really couldn't find a Hornets game on TV here in Raleigh for the longest time. Now, they're on FSC every night. They still suck, but you can find them. For this, its far more likely that Fox Sports made a strategic dedication to actually building out FSC statewide on the backs of the Hornets and Canes.

Also, the notion that the Checkers is making the Canes a strong base in Charlotte is like saying the Swarm makes the Hornets a stronghold in Greensboro. I just can't agree with the notion that a minor league affiliate has any major sway over where a specific region leans. It has more to do with the major league franchise winning. People want to follow a winner. Just like how Raleigh was all in for the Panthers in 2015, but largely doesn't give a shit about that franchise otherwise.

 

[Svechhammer]

As someone who remained primarily as a Bruins fan for over a decade after the Hurricanes moved here, specifically because Boston was the Checkers’ original affiliate and the Canes gave me zero reason to cheer for them from Charlotte, the Checkers’ affiliation definitely does matter to the long term growth of hockey in NC. In 12 years I, a native North Carolinian who was already primarily a hockey fan, went to one regular season game and two playoff games (in 2 of 3 cases to cheer AGAINST the Canes) and the draft. It took me physically moving to the Triangle to really start giving a **** about this organization, and it should NOT have been that hard a sell. If the Canes had simply affiliated with the Checkers to begin with, that picture would have looked very different.

This entire franchise exists on the principle that places which aren’t already raging hockey hotbeds are still worth investing in. The idea that if it isn’t a hotbed after 10 years (some of which didn’t even involve a dysfunctional shitshow!) then **** em, its time to pull the plug, is a step in the wrong direction.

If the Canes wanted to fully capture the Charlotte market, they would be in Charlotte. They aren't. It would be nice to have them, but they don't need Charlotte. Charlotte fans aren't buying the bulk of tickets to games, they don't consist of a major portion of STM, and they're going to be the first region to check out when things turn bad.

Its good to have them, but its not vital. If there is an opportunity for the franchise to make itself better by affiliating with another AHL franchise and the only drawback is maybe damaging its relationship with die hard Checkers fans, or casual Charlotte fans who may tune in when its convenient... Well... I mean that's not exactly a hard decision to make. It sucks for the people of Charlotte, but Charlotte doesn't pay the bills.

And plus, I've also heard rumors this could end up with the Wolves relocating to Greensboro to continue the regional affiliation. If that happens, it would be a great move for the Canes.

 

[GindyDraws]

I wish I could give you guys good news here, but your reaction is pretty much spot on. Wolves are very independently minded and focused on winning and drawing local crowds to the potential detriment of parent prospects that need development. A lot of fun to attend their games as they're always trying to build a contender, but even their proximity isn't enough to make me remotely interested in the Hawks partnering with them.

I don't get this from your team's perspective unless there's a major case of acrimony between the Raleigh and Charlotte ownership groups.

Not to mention I don't think the Wolves are going to be celebrating the Hurricanes by giving them any theme nights or anything to remind casual fans who they're with, in terms of creating Caniacs/Jerks in Chi-Town. At least with Charlotte, everything is in-state and you can build up the NHL's focus in North Carolina's largest city, but with Chicago's AHL team, the Wolves are still going to be Wolves first and foremost.

 

[GindyDraws]

I know we have a few fans from Charlotte here, but in the grand scheme, that area has never latched onto the Canes and likely never will. The Checkers didn't win over that area like we thought it would and if we can find a better deal elsewhere, might as well explore it.

Put it this way, has having the Bulls make the Triangle a hotbed of Tampa Bay Rays fans in the 20+ years they've been affiliated? not even close.

The Rays sucking most of those years sure didn't help.

 

[Svechhammer]

The Rays sucking most of those years sure didn't help.

Earlier today I read that since 2008, the Rays have like the 5th or 6th best record in baseball. The part that sucks for them is that 2 of the teams above them are the RedSox and Yankees, effectively blocking them from the playoffs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If the Canes wanted to fully capture the Charlotte market, they would be in Charlotte. They aren't. It would be nice to have them, but they don't need Charlotte. Charlotte fans aren't buying the bulk of tickets to games, they don't consist of a major portion of STM, and they're going to be the first region to check out when things turn bad.

Its good to have them, but its not vital. If there is an opportunity for the franchise to make itself better by affiliating with another AHL franchise and the only drawback is maybe damaging its relationship with die hard Checkers fans, or casual Charlotte fans who may tune in when its convenient... Well... I mean that's not exactly a hard decision to make. It sucks for the people of Charlotte, but Charlotte doesn't pay the bills.

And plus, I've also heard rumors this could end up with the Wolves relocating to Greensboro to continue the regional affiliation. If that happens, it would be a great move for the Canes.

If the Wolves relocate, that’s quite a different story. But they’ve been among the best supported minor league teams for a long time now, so I’m not holding my breath until something more concrete comes of that.

And I would hardly say the “only drawback” to this is losing a cohort of diehard fans. There’s also the matter of moving our affiliate to an entirely different region, to a franchise that’s notorious for NOT developing prospects. This doesn’t make hockey sense, or marketing sense. The only apparent upside is a little more cash and a resolution to whatever tiff Dundon is having with Kahn.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

If the Canes wanted to fully capture the Charlotte market, they would be in Charlotte. They aren't. It would be nice to have them, but they don't need Charlotte. Charlotte fans aren't buying the bulk of tickets to games, they don't consist of a major portion of STM, and they're going to be the first region to check out when things turn bad.

Its good to have them, but its not vital. If there is an opportunity for the franchise to make itself better by affiliating with another AHL franchise and the only drawback is maybe damaging its relationship with die hard Checkers fans, or casual Charlotte fans who may tune in when its convenient... Well... I mean that's not exactly a hard decision to make. It sucks for the people of Charlotte, but Charlotte doesn't pay the bills.

And plus, I've also heard rumors this could end up with the Wolves relocating to Greensboro to continue the regional affiliation. If that happens, it would be a great move for the Canes.

I think those are rumors we started tbh. Any other sources?

 

[HisIceness]

It would be nice to have them, but they don't need Charlotte

See I disagree with this. The Canes need to expand their outreach in the state and Charlotte is the biggest market in the state. When things come back to normal, the Checkers (as we know them now as our affiliate) are primed to continue their ways as a championship contender and the Hurricanes are primed to be the best team of the 3 major league teams in the state. Last year the Checkers set record attendance in Bojangles Coliseum and overall interest in that franchise was by far the highest I've ever seen it, this includes when they made the jump to the AHL 10 years ago. This is by far the best time to market themselves to this city and they're going to screw it up for reasons we don't really know but can only speculate.

Yes, I am heavily biased about this, but even speaking just as a fan of the Hurricanes, this is a move that feels more Eugene Melynk and less Mark Cuban. And that's not what this franchise needs.

 

[Joe McGrath]

See I disagree with this. The Canes need to expand their outreach in the state and Charlotte is the biggest market in the state. When things come back to normal, the Checkers (as we know them now as our affiliate) are primed to continue their ways as a championship contender and the Hurricanes are primed to be the best team of the 3 major league teams in the state. Last year the Checkers set record attendance in Bojangles Coliseum and overall interest in that franchise was by far the highest I've ever seen it, this includes when they made the jump to the AHL 10 years ago. This is by far the best time to market themselves to this city and they're going to screw it up for reasons we don't really know but can only speculate.

Yes, I am heavily biased about this, but even speaking just as a fan of the Hurricanes, this is a move that feels more Eugene Melynk and less Mark Cuban. And that's not what this franchise needs.

The Canes need to expand their outreach in the triangle before they start worrying about a city 3 hours away.

 

[sabremike]

The Canes need to expand their outreach in the triangle before they start worrying about a city 3 hours away.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The Canes need to expand their outreach in the triangle before they start worrying about a city 3 hours away.

Part of the reason the Canes don’t penetrate more deeply is that they’re perceived as highly localized, something that only a subset of people in one city cares about. That’s largely because the organization spent over a decade ignoring the rest of the state, and didn’t actually feel like a “Carolina” team when they finally made the move to affiliate with the Checkers.

There really is no way to spin abandonment of a market as a positive. You don’t expand a brand by shrinking and isolating it. Dropping Charlotte from the “family” would be an L for this franchise.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I'm curious, and there may not be a way to know this, but what do cities with similar dynamics (distance, population, own identities/pro sports teams) do in a similar situation? Is there the same concerted effort to market a team that doesn't overlap to the other area? Do they just hope that the footprint of the team being the closest just takes hold by some sort of proximity and/or tv market? I wonder if we are just making a big deal out of it. Maybe with the dynamics of an area like the Triangle vs Charlotte or similar, it's not worth what you're putting in vs what you're getting out vs. doing nothing.