Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

[DaveG]

The difference being the Checkers relationship generates marketing presence while also giving us hockey-related benefits.

This would all be a lot more comprehensible if they were moving the affiliate to Atlanta or Norfolk, to an organization that would be easier to work with from a player development point of view. Affiliating with the Wolves is the opposite of that. We're going to have to factor time zones into call-ups, and work with a notoriously independent organization that in the year 2020 would rather have Zach Boychuk than Jamieson Rees. We are facing a period of self-inflicted problems on both the marketing AND hockey sides.

If rumors are true (and granted, these rumors seemed too idiotic to be plausible just a few weeks ago) the only connection with Chicago is that Waddell has connections there and was able to broker a deal on the fly. This is not a long-term strategic choice by the Hurricanes. This is friction between two CEOs undermining both organizations by taking them both off-mission.

I don't think this point can be emphasized enough. Even with the whole concept of the Canes still being the ones that pay the coaches, the coach is still going to try to win. Even if that pisses the Canes right the f*** off there's still 30 other teams that won't care one iota that he'll be trying to get a job with. And with as much coaching staff turnover as there usually is league wide someone's going to bite on a guy that has "Calder Cup Champion" on his resume, especially if it's a younger coach. And it's not like the Canes are going to shitcan Rod any time soon so there's no point in trying to appease the org in hopes of being promoted.

To put it in perspective when the Wolves played the Checkers they had the following playing heavy minutes for them:

Tye McGinn (28) - AHL contract
Brandon Pirri (27)
Curtis McKenzie (27)
Brooks Macek (26)
TJ Tynan (26)
Daniel Carr (26)

Yes, some of that is in the cards they had been dealt by Vegas being an expansion team. But this is an org that's notorious for that time after time, regardless of who they're an affiliate of. Those aren't prospects, those are Quad A guys that are there for one reason and one reason only - to win a title. And I'll be even more pissed when someone like Zac Dalpe or Sam Gagner is brought in and given playing time over David Cotton for them in the next season or two. When. Not if.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Interestingly, 9 of the top 11 playoff scorers from the championship team aren't in the organization anymore. May as well have been the AAAA players we are worrying about at that rate. That's not even counting a plethora of career minor leaguers that also played roles further down the lineup like Didier, Nastasiuk, Renouf and McKeown (ours, but not coming up anytime soon). Even with all that, our real prospects like Fleury, Necas, Geekie, Bean, Sellgren all played roles on that team. Maybe it won't be that big of a deal.

 

[Chrispy]

With the one year out clause mentioned in the N&O, I wonder if the Canes had something else fall through and are just hoping to float through a season with Chicago until they can get a good affiliate agreement. Or maybe they've identified some candidates whose affiliate agreements expire in the next year or two.

Doesn't make much sense compared to signing another 1 year deal with Charlotte, though. Why relocate the AHL affiliate this year just to do it again next year?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I would consider someone like @HisIceness to be a core stakeholder. You’re free to disagree. Aside from his specific personal situation, he represents a group of fans in Charlotte and extending for about halfway across the state who watch Canes games, buy jerseys, and otherwise contribute to the fanbase in addition to being Checkers fans. This move, if it actually happens, would be a slap directly across their faces after buying into the “we’re one hockey family” message that was pushed by the Canes over the past several years.

AFAIC, going to the most development-unfriendly affiliate in the AHL as a money-saver is absolutely “stripping the team down to save money”. How could it be framed any other way? We’re going from an actual AHL championship with our prospects in leading roles, to a situation where our prospects will be lost behind AAAA free agent signings. As far as prospect development is concerned, this is the next worst thing to operating without an affiliate.

I believe we have a very liberal term of core stakeholder if HisIceness is the definition (no disrespect). If Hisiceness is a main investor of the Canes, then I retract my previous sentence.

saving money for the NHL team is what he should be doing when the franchise will struggle to turn a profit. Melynk refuses to spend money on his NHL team so he can turn a profit. TD is cutting AHL spending to minimize the losses of his big spending NHL team. Huge difference.

Charlotte fans are fans of Charlotte who get to see Carolina prospects. Nothing says they have to be Carolina fans or the franchise owes them anything. Its just like minor league baseball.

 

[emptyNedder]

That is how it works.

he pays the bills, he gets all the votes until he asks for suggestions (much like parenting).

on top of that fans are a means to make money. That is about it. If more money is to be made elsewhere, elsewhere they will go. It is proven time and time again.

Then we should join a class action suit for false advertising. Before every game and on most radio and TV commercials the reference is made to "your Carolina Hurricanes."

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Then we should join a class action suit for false advertising. Before every game and on most radio and TV commercials the reference is made to "your Carolina Hurricanes."

Suuurreeee

 

[Joe McGrath]

Part of the reason the Canes don’t penetrate more deeply is that they’re perceived as highly localized, something that only a subset of people in one city cares about. That’s largely because the organization spent over a decade ignoring the rest of the state, and didn’t actually feel like a “Carolina” team when they finally made the move to affiliate with the Checkers.

There really is no way to spin abandonment of a market as a positive. You don’t expand a brand by shrinking and isolating it. Dropping Charlotte from the “family” would be an L for this franchise.

I haven’t branded it as a positive at all. I just don’t think the marketing/outreach angle matters all that much as people are making it.

 

[GindyDraws]

Maybe the Canes think they can build a bigger following of hockey fans in Chicago than they can trying to convince Charlotte residents to embrace the NHL. Perhaps the Canes become the secondary/East team that Blackhawks fans tune in for. Especially if the Canes-backed Wolves are winning and stacked with good prospects. All while Carolina's window is opening while the Blackhawks head into a rebuild/retool.

Not with the Wolves. I just mentioned that the Chicago Wolves prioritize the Chicago Wolves first and foremost and you don't see any real mention of who they're affiliated with in the arena or on the team website. Their independence makes them unique in the AHL... and ironically makes them difficult to work with if you're the kind of team that wants to micromanage the hell out of player development.

 

[GindyDraws]

Then we should join a class action suit for false advertising. Before every game and on most radio and TV commercials the reference is made to "your Carolina Hurricanes."

"Your Raleigh-Durham Hurricanes" is more of a word salad than it is a marketing hook.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not with the Wolves. I just mentioned that the Chicago Wolves prioritize the Chicago Wolves first and foremost and you don't see any real mention of who they're affiliated with in the arena or on the team website. Their independence makes them unique in the AHL... and ironically makes them difficult to work with if you're the kind of team that wants to micromanage the hell out of player development.

they're not as independent as the league allows them to be....that's the franchise who should've been gifted to Vegas, not SA

 

[tarheelhockey]

I believe we have a very liberal term of core stakeholder if HisIceness is the definition (no disrespect). If Hisiceness is a main investor of the Canes, then I retract my previous sentence.

I didn't mean someone who literally holds an ownership share in the organization. "Stakeholder" is generally used to mean anyone who has an interest in an organization, including consumers.

I would regard someone who spends a very substantial amount of time interacting with a company from the customer side, and (presumably) puts money into that company on a regular basis in some fashion, to be a core stakeholder. They are part of the financial base that sustains the organization, and part of the publicity base that gives it market presence.

Charlotte fans are fans of Charlotte who get to see Carolina prospects. Nothing says they have to be Carolina fans or the franchise owes them anything. Its just like minor league baseball.

Nothing says they HAVE to be Hurricanes fans, but we know for a fact that a non-trivial number of them ARE Hurricanes fans. That relationship is directly tied to the affiliation and co-branding between the organizations.

The Checkers/Canes affiliation is not comparable to the Bulls/Rays from a market-building standpoint. There's a reason both teams pimped this relationship for years and recently drew a third team into it.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I didn't mean someone who literally holds an ownership share in the organization. "Stakeholder" is generally used to mean anyone who has an interest in an organization, including consumers.

I would regard someone who spends a very substantial amount of time interacting with a company from the customer side, and (presumably) puts money into that company on a regular basis in some fashion, to be a core stakeholder. They are part of the financial base that sustains the organization, and part of the publicity base that gives it market presence.



Nothing says they HAVE to be Hurricanes fans, but we know for a fact that a non-trivial number of them ARE Hurricanes fans. That relationship is directly tied to the affiliation and co-branding between the organizations.

The Checkers/Canes affiliation is not comparable to the Bulls/Rays from a market-building standpoint. There's a reason both teams pimped this relationship for years and recently drew a third team into it.

Again he is a “stakeholder” of Charlotte not Carolina. TD doesn’t owe them anything, at most a thanks for not costing me more money.

Bulls/Rays aren’t the only MiLB/MLB pairing. In ATL the Gwinnett (AAA) Braves, 25 miles to the north) had to change their names to separate themselves from Atlanta. We also have the Rome Braves (A), 25 miles to the west. Braves don’t owe their fans anything. Much like their high A affiliate, they can change to find better places.
It is nice that Rome is affiliated with the Braves when i go because we are braves fans. At the same time, if they changed affiliates I would still go. Its a heck of a lot cheaper than the actual braves.

 

[HisIceness]

I would consider someone like @HisIceness to be a core stakeholder. You’re free to disagree. Aside from his specific personal situation, he represents a group of fans in Charlotte and extending for about halfway across the state who watch Canes games, buy jerseys, and otherwise contribute to the fanbase in addition to being Checkers fans. This move, if it actually happens, would be a slap directly across their faces after buying into the “we’re one hockey family” message that was pushed by the Canes over the past several years.

AFAIC, going to the most development-unfriendly affiliate in the AHL as a money-saver is absolutely “stripping the team down to save money”. How could it be framed any other way? We’re going from an actual AHL championship with our prospects in leading roles, to a situation where our prospects will be lost behind AAAA free agent signings. As far as prospect development is concerned, this is the next worst thing to operating without an affiliate.

I believe we have a very liberal term of core stakeholder if HisIceness is the definition (no disrespect). If Hisiceness is a main investor of the Canes, then I retract my previous sentence.

saving money for the NHL team is what he should be doing when the franchise will struggle to turn a profit. Melynk refuses to spend money on his NHL team so he can turn a profit. TD is cutting AHL spending to minimize the losses of his big spending NHL team. Huge difference.

Charlotte fans are fans of Charlotte who get to see Carolina prospects. Nothing says they have to be Carolina fans or the franchise owes them anything. Its just like minor league baseball.

Not an investor, just a simple dude who likes the team.

TarHeelHockey is right though. I understand the business of sports is something the average fan doesn't know everything about, but for someone like me who tries like hell to promote the Hurricanes and the game of Hockey through means of wearing the apparel and chatting about it w/ friends and family, in a market that largely ignores both but does come around when things are going well (like last year and now before COVID), it is indeed a slap to the face. The Hurricanes should absolutely be doing more to promote themselves in this market, and this is the best way to do it. As I mentioned earlier, the Predators took a chance to promote within their own state and beyond, and they've done admirably well. Their 'Thrash 2 Smash' campaign to cater to Thrashers fans in 2011 was genius. And look, if the poorly run and bottom-feeding anchor Charlotte Bobcats can promote themselves throughout the state, there's no reason for the Hurricanes to not do the same.

It's not just them leaving though, the future of Hockey in this city is in question. The Panthers are not going to be loyal to this market, if Orlando or Atlanta or West Palm Beach called, they'd probably take that. What happens then? Does the ECHL come back? San Antonio is losing their AHL team that they've had for years. Houston hasn't had Hockey of any kind since 2013, and although they'd be a market the NHL wants, they still to this day don't have a franchise. There's no guarantee that Hockey stays in town if the Canes bolt for Chicago. It is hard enough to get access to Hockey here, contrary to popular belief there are people in the South who like the game more than Football.

And, it's been mentioned many times but bears repeating. The Wolves are notoriously bad to partner with. Everyone that leaves them jumps for motherf***ing joy when they do. If you have time go check out the comments in the Golden Knights twitter account when it was announced they were leaving. Blues fans couldn't wait to leave them, Canucks fans were counting the days down until the agreement ran out. This is no fluke, fans of NHL clubs hate them and what they do w/ their prospects, they want 27 y/o career AHLers to play top minutes that should be going to the Martin Necas type players. No one should be eager to sign with them unless they have to. I think everyone would be much happier if they were independent.

This is a move that has a huge ripple effect on the franchise and the game of Hockey in the state going forward, and the bad more than outweighs the good. But since Dundon saves money on two road trips to Milwaukee and Rockford, then I guess it's worth it. Too bad for the team that call-ups are going to be harder to get on time now that they'll be in California more than if they stayed in Charlotte.

But since it looks like no one will be allowed to enter any stadiums for at least a year, maybe we're all getting worked up over nothing and the Canes/Checkers come back to reality, realize they benefit from each other, and partner up again when fans are allowed back. But as it is now, this has mistake written all over it.

 

[WreckingCrew]

I didn't mean someone who literally holds an ownership share in the organization. "Stakeholder" is generally used to mean anyone who has an interest in an organization, including consumers.

I would regard someone who spends a very substantial amount of time interacting with a company from the customer side, and (presumably) puts money into that company on a regular basis in some fashion, to be a core stakeholder. They are part of the financial base that sustains the organization, and part of the publicity base that gives it market presence.



Nothing says they HAVE to be Hurricanes fans, but we know for a fact that a non-trivial number of them ARE Hurricanes fans. That relationship is directly tied to the affiliation and co-branding between the organizations.

The Checkers/Canes affiliation is not comparable to the Bulls/Rays from a market-building standpoint. There's a reason both teams pimped this relationship for years and recently drew a third team into it.

This 100%. I consider myself a stakeholder in both teams because I've been a fan of each from their start (not Whalers but when they became the Hurricanes). My interest in BOTH skyrocketed even more when they became affiliated because that gave me a bigger connection to both. I'm more vested in the Checkers because they're closer and more affordable. I'm not a Canes STH like many of you, but I get to a few games per year, I buy Canes merch (and gladly sport it with Checkers stuff at the same time), I watch every game I can, and spend countless hours every week on this board with you bunch of jerks discussing the franchise. I am a fan of both, and it's much easier when they're directly related...plus I can discuss Checkers with Canes fans and Canes with Checkers fans and anything in between. The best part about the draft for me is I get to anticipate seeing pretty much all of them in the AHL...if you're only a Canes fans you only need to really focus on guys who could be future NHLers

 

[A Star is Burns]

I wonder how much it really hurts a franchise to pair with the Wolves. I know they have their priorities, and I'd much rather be in full control of that, but I wonder if it's that bad.

The Thrashers were trash for other and obvious reasons.

The Canucks made the playoffs both years affiliated with them and in 1 of the 2 next seasons. They then hit a skid of not making the playoffs, but was that the development of the prospects from up to 3 years previous by then, who knows. Not a huge list of guys that went onto impact careers other than Lack, Tanev, Antoine Roussel, and Zack Kassian. Granted, I see a fair number of young players on those teams that were played a fair amount. They may have been as bad at drafting as developing. Hard to say. We certainly had stretches in Charlotte of playing young guys and lists of graduates no better than that.

Looks like the Blues made the playoffs during their entire affiliation and since leaving and won a Cup within a couple of years. At various points I see guys like Dunn, Barbashev, Blais, Edmundson, Parayko (super briefly), Jake Allen and Binnington that played a part in their success spent development time in Chicago.

It'll be hard to say what the impact on Vegas is, because they obviously are at a disadvantage with their prospect situation. I do see several guys that have moved up to Vegas during these years though.

Of course, this is still not to say I want it. I'm just throwing crap out there while I'm bored.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Again he is a “stakeholder” of Charlotte not Carolina.

There is absolutely no reason why someone can't be a stakeholder in both orgs, especially when the following two posts after yours explicitly show people spending money and actively promoting both of them.

Those posts are reflective of a deliberate marketing campaign the Canes invested in for years, and which they are now shitting all over with these hijinks.

TD doesn’t owe them anything, at most a thanks for not costing me more money.

I'm aware this is all about cheering for laundry at the end of the day, but if you really believe that statement is true, then that's just kind of ****ed up. Of course TD owes them something, they are quite literally customers of his business -- and his business is subsidized by public money.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

There is absolutely no reason why someone can't be a stakeholder in both orgs, especially when the following two posts after yours explicitly show people spending money and actively promoting both of them.

Those posts are reflective of a deliberate marketing campaign the Canes invested in for years, and which they are now shitting all over with these hijinks.



I'm aware this is all about cheering for laundry at the end of the day, but if you really believe that statement is true, then that's just kind of ****ed up. Of course TD owes them something, they are quite literally customers of his business -- and his business is subsidized by public money.

TD owes them nothing. The truth is F’ed sometimes. I put money and time in a couple of teams / universities. If they decided to change locations or make decisions I don’t agree with, they don’t owe me any explanation or anything else.

 

[WreckingCrew]

TD owes them nothing. The truth is F’ed sometimes. I put money and time in a couple of teams / universities. If they decided to change locations or make decisions I don’t agree with, they don’t owe me any explanation or anything else.

I will actually agree with you here, he doesn't owe us anything other than providing entertainment we're paying for. Just like if he wants to **** over fans and they decide to take their business and loyalties elsewhere we don't owe him anything (hypothetically, not saying I'd stop supporting the Canes but it wouldn't be as strongly probably). It may only piss off a small number of fans like myself and @HisIceness and he loses little, he could piss off a whole slew of people and legitimately take a business hit...whatever he's willing to bank on and risk. There is something to be said for loyalty though, loyal customers invest and sacrifice more and it takes time to cultivate, distrust can have just the opposite impact

 

[Joe McGrath]

Is it possible that TD has seen the tangible gains of having a 10 year relationship with Charlotte and they are basically nothing?

It is also possible this is just TD being a dick. Unless we hear actual specifics we’ll probably never know for sure.

 

[GoldiFox]

Just got around to actually reading the article. Aren't fears of Chicago's past of prioritizing veterans a little overblown when Warsofsky is the coach? He will play whoever Canes management tells him to play. His job security would be with the Canes - not the Wolves. Particularly given the annual out-clause. What leverage do the Wolves have?

 

[bleedgreen]

I've not been convinced the new regime is THAT concerned with development. It's still too early to tell, but they've traded a lot of pieces off. This doesn't feel like a great move and you kind of have to assume it's a power struggle/money thing. I think we'll start seeing the answer on that as the prospects this regime has drafted start making their way through the system. I think it was good for the local market and general pride to have it all in the same area, but the most important thing for development is playing time. If any Canes prospect takes a back seat to a minor league vet than this concept can f*** right off.

 

[Canes]

Just got around to actually reading the article. Aren't fears of Chicago's past of prioritizing veterans a little overblown when Warsofsky is the coach? He will play whoever Canes management tells him to play. His job security would be with the Canes - not the Wolves. Particularly given the annual out-clause. What leverage do the Wolves have?

He's going to play the best players he has at his disposal. Ultimately his goal is just like his players, to move up to the NHL. And any management team worth working for is not going to tell him how to make up his roster any more than they tell Brind'Amour how to make up his. A GM provides the players, the coach decides how to deploy them. Warsofsky's not going to play our prospects over expensive vets the Wolves provide if he thinks it's a losing proposition, even if the Canes threaten to get rid of him for it (which they wouldn't do anyway).

 

[VikingAv]

they're not as independent as the league allows them to be....that's the franchise who should've been gifted to Vegas, not SA

With that purchase price Vegas definitely wasn't "gifted" any franchise. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

I really don't like this for the Canes, or the Checkers for that matter. The Canes will now send their prospects to Chicago who are notoriously difficult to work with, putting player development last on the priority list. And the Checkers will lose their connection to the in-state NHL-team, which has to influence their bottom-line, imo. Two giant egos clash and the end result is negative for both. Shocker.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I'm not going to say anything about this until it's official. This seems too weird for it to not be some kind of negotiating tactic, a la letting Don Waddell speak to the Wild and then hammering out an agreement at the last minute, with the full knowledge that the big dog is willing to walk away if the price is too high. I truly, truly hope that this doesn't happen, though.

 

[Svechhammer]

He's going to play the best players he has at his disposal. Ultimately his goal is just like his players, to move up to the NHL. And any management team worth working for is not going to tell him how to make up his roster any more than they tell Brind'Amour how to make up his. A GM provides the players, the coach decides how to deploy them. Warsofsky's not going to play our prospects over expensive vets the Wolves provide if he thinks it's a losing proposition, even if the Canes threaten to get rid of him for it (which they wouldn't do anyway).

He's going to do what his employer tells him. If the Canes are inserting him there as coach, and they are the ones controlling his employment, he's going to do what they tell him to do. And I completely disagree with allowing an AHL franchise to operate on their own when you're using them as a development program. I mean yeah, you'd like to win, but the organizational goal here is to maximize talent at the NHL level, and that also means prioritizing the development of prospects over loading up on veterans to keep making a run.

I'd be far more worried about their direction if the Wolves could employ their own coach and coaching staff, but that's not the case here. The Canes are going to be pulling the strings.