Checkers V: Macgregor Kilpatrick Trophy Edition

[Canes]

I'm curious, and there may not be a way to know this, but what do cities with similar dynamics (distance, population, own identities/pro sports teams) do in a similar situation? Is there the same concerted effort to market a team that doesn't overlap to the other area? Do they just hope that the footprint of the team being the closest just takes hold by some sort of proximity and/or tv market? I wonder if we are just making a big deal out of it. Maybe with the dynamics of an area like the Triangle vs Charlotte or similar, it's not worth what you're putting in vs what you're getting out vs. doing nothing.

In hockey or sports altogether?

If the latter, it's basically the minor league model of the Atlanta Braves (although admittedly they have done some shady dealings involving holding cities hostage for new stadiums, IIRC, so it's not all lollypops and rainbows from that perspective but then again that's sports in the US as a whole)

 

[A Star is Burns]

In any sport. Do teams in one city that are close to another fairly big city with their own sports and identities (but not overlapping a sport at the highest level) worry as much as we are worrying about Charlotte. These are two major league markets in their own rights. Are you as likely to convert another large market, even if part of the same state, that is far away and has its own identity? Is it worth it versus doing nothing (whether it be huge marketing efforts or a minor league affiliation)? How many more fans do you get from that? If Charlotte was the same distance but in Virginia, I'd assume no one cares. Maybe we just shouldn't worry that much about Charlotte aside from what the Canes get from being in NC and being good at times. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just wondering.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In any sport. Do teams in one city that are close to another fairly big city with their own sports and identities (but not overlapping a sport at the highest level) worry as much as we are worrying about Charlotte. These are two major league markets in their own rights. Are you as likely to convert another large market, even if part of the same state, that is far away and has its own identity? Is it worth it versus doing nothing (whether it be huge marketing efforts or a minor league affiliation)? How many more fans do you get from that? If Charlotte was the same distance but in Virginia, I'd assume no one cares. Maybe we just shouldn't worry that much about Charlotte aside from what the Canes get from being in NC and being good at times. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just wondering.

A recent thread on the Blue Jackets board gives some insight into their similar relationship with Cleveland and Cincy.

How the Blue Jackets can market themselves to all of Ohio

The discussion starts from a tone-deaf suggestion to change the name of the team to "Ohio", so you kind of have to wade through the outraged reaction to get to the relevant stuff, like CBJ having "Cleveland Night" and "Cincinnati Night" promotions every year.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

If we'd never had a minor league team in Charlotte, not having a minor league team in Charlotte wouldn't be a big deal.

But we do have a minor league team in Charlotte, and not only that, it won a goddamned championship.

What do the fans want? I guarantee you they want to stay affiliated with the Canes. I guarantee it.

So the reason for changing, whatever it is, is fundamentally and inarguably a bad one. Now we're only arguing about how bad -- a little bad, or really bad?

 

[HisIceness]

I definitely think there has been a sizeable surge recently due to the marketing with the Canes and their recent success and people giving a **** about them again (like you said, success breeds that). And it helps that there are finally ex-checkers on the Canes (rather than the flame-out Boychuk's/Murphy's of the world). But that success has only been the past 2 years (for both teams really)...it's a surge on top of what I've seen as a general upward trend. Like I said, 10 years ago and the first few years you saw nothing Canes related, but every year I've seen more and more gear crossover, people talk about ex-Checkers on the Canes and follow them more closely, there's a vested interest in seeing Checkers succeed and then making it to our NHL squad. It's easy to follow Foegele and Necas because they're our locally televised NHL team! The fans are a bit more understanding when they lose players to trades/callups because they're going to play for "our" NHL team...that's something you definitely don't get when they're feeding to a non-local team (Checkers fans used to HATE the Hartford/NYR affiliation because our roster changed at least 1-2x per week), not that that affects the Canes fans.

Again, I know I'm biased in all this because I'm more vested in the Checkers than the Canes, and to me that connection is vital, so take it with a rightful grain of salt/skepticism. I'm probably overestimating the connection a bit because it's so strong for me, DW/Dundon are probably underestimating...so probably somewhere in the middle is the reality lol

@HisIceness feel free to tell me I'm crazy and seeing through my own rose-colored glasses

Everything you said, I agree with 100%

 

[Canes]

I don't think it's a big deal that we may not be affiliating with the Checkers anymore but I don't live in either city or NC. Obviously either way life and sports will go on. I just think it sort of looks bad the Canes have a ready made AHL affiliation in the same state but are willing throw that away for whatever reason(s) they aren't saying. The Checkers have done a pretty good job at developing talent, have had some success in the league, they're only a few hours away for call ups, and they DO have more Canes fans than any other AHL team. None of which apparently matters.

I just thought having regional based affiliations was pretty cool. It gave a little more credence to the Hurricanes being the CAROLINA Hurricanes with their affiliates based in the Carolinas. But I realize there's only 2-3 dozen non-triangle based fans so triangle based fans don't really care about non-triangle based fans. I'm not going to get into why there's so few non-triangle based fans of a team named CAROLINA Hurricanes other than to say our franchise has always been pretty poor in marketing even with considering hockey isn't popular in the US much less the southeast US. Moving affiliations from Charlotte to Chicago is just another example of them being terrible marketers outside of the triangle.

 

[DaveG]

In any sport. Do teams in one city that are close to another fairly big city with their own sports and identities (but not overlapping a sport at the highest level) worry as much as we are worrying about Charlotte. These are two major league markets in their own rights. Are you as likely to convert another large market, even if part of the same state, that is far away and has its own identity? Is it worth it versus doing nothing (whether it be huge marketing efforts or a minor league affiliation)? How many more fans do you get from that? If Charlotte was the same distance but in Virginia, I'd assume no one cares. Maybe we just shouldn't worry that much about Charlotte aside from what the Canes get from being in NC and being good at times. I'm not saying one way or the other. Just wondering.

I know before the Expos moved there was always talk of how to get more DC fans in to Baltimore for Os games. Not so many shits given about Richmond area but DC traffic makes that unrealistic anyway.

I know there was a pretty decent split there as well with some backing the Os and others picking another semiregional team that was good at the time or even *vomits* the Yankees. Most everyone I know caught on with the Nats eventually aside from a couple Os holdouts.

 

[A Star is Burns]

A recent thread on the Blue Jackets board gives some insight into their similar relationship with Cleveland and Cincy.

How the Blue Jackets can market themselves to all of Ohio

The discussion starts from a tone-deaf suggestion to change the name of the team to "Ohio", so you kind of have to wade through the outraged reaction to get to the relevant stuff, like CBJ having "Cleveland Night" and "Cincinnati Night" promotions every year.

That's interesting. I'll definitely read that here shortly. So, with that, I wonder what's more effective? Having the cross promotional nights we've had like Hornets night and Panthers players coming to sound the siren, or the Checkers as a whole operation? Not just from numbers of fans, but resources in general in relation to the number of fans and money spent. I get our knee jerk reaction, and again, my initial reaction is we should keep the team in Charlotte. But I wonder if it truly is as effective as well all are acting like it is or how much having the affiliate there matters. Hell, we have at least one fan saying he is only a Canes fan because of the Checkers. Is that a truly effective form of having a fan? I don't know (and I mean no offense to that or any similar fan).

ETA: It's also a little funny that you brought up that discussion about a tone deaf changing to Ohio when we just had a poster here go to bat loudly for Raleigh Hurricanes over Carolina. If we had been the Raleigh Hurricanes from the beginning, or even Triangle, again, I wonder how much people would be so gung ho about this.

 

[HisIceness]

I don't think it's a big deal that we may not be affiliating with the Checkers anymore but I don't live in either city or NC. Obviously either way life and sports will go on. I just think it sort of looks bad the Canes have a ready made AHL affiliation in the same state but are willing throw that away for whatever reason(s) they aren't saying. The Checkers have done a pretty good job at developing talent, have had some success in the league, they're only a few hours away for call ups, and they DO have more Canes fans than any other AHL team. None of which apparently matters.

I just thought having regional based affiliations was pretty cool. It gave a little more credence to the Hurricanes being the CAROLINA Hurricanes with their affiliates based in the Carolinas. But I realize there's only 2-3 dozen non-triangle based fans so triangle based fans don't really care about non-triangle based fans. I'm not going to get into why there's so few non-triangle based fans of a team named CAROLINA Hurricanes other than to say our franchise has always been pretty poor in marketing even with considering hockey isn't popular in the US much less the southeast US. Moving affiliations from Charlotte to Chicago is just another example of them being terrible marketers outside of the triangle.

I used to go to Winston-Salem on business and it would baffle me to see the Charlotte Bobcats advertise themselves throughout town, and this before, during, and after when they had that infamous 7-59 season. I even saw billboards and other marketing ads for them in Asheville, Columbia, and Wilmington. Never saw anything for the Hurricanes outside PNC Arena during that time. It seemed pretty inexcusable to me that an even lousier franchise that had very little hope of being anything other than first-round fodder could out-market the only championship team in the state. And, it's the NBA. NBA fans typically follow the star players and their superteams and the Bobcats/Hornets are not that.

I went to the preseason game against the Jets in 2011 at Spectrum Center. Sunday afternoon right after a Panthers game and about 11,000 showed up. A great time and it was expected to be a regular thing but instead the Canes decided until the end of the Karmanos era to play one game as the 'home team' in Quebec City, Saskatoon, and Nova Scotia instead. Drove me up a wall.

Like you said, it's Hockey in the Southeast but I've noticed the Predators have done a lot to market themselves outside Nashville and into the reaches of Alabama, Mississippi, Kentucky, Georgia, and their own state of Tennessee. They've actually done an admirable job all things considered, and they arguably have a harder task in doing so since there's next to no minor league Hockey teams or programs (other than Huntsville) in their 'territory'. North Carolina has a pretty good history of Hockey for a Southern state. The Hurricanes could have considered in lieu of those useless Canadian games, ask the Predators or Capitals who they play every year anyways, to meet them in Charleston (Stingrays are the Caps ECHL team), or Greenville SC at the Bi-Lo Center, or just shoot for Charlotte every year like was originally thought. Again, it's the South and it's largely Football or nothing but they could have tried to take the Predators approach and attempt to let other Carolina-based towns see the regional NHL team. Never did. But at least now w/ Karmanos gone those Halifax games are no more.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

So the reason for changing, whatever it is, is fundamentally and inarguably a bad one. Now we're only arguing about how bad -- a little bad, or really bad?

cant agree with this.

If:
A. chicago will pay a larger affiliate fee
B. Doesn’t require any propping up by the big club because they can sustain themselves ( i.e more money to spend on the big club)

then the move definitely makes sense and is a good one.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I know we've all wanted this for years, but if the Checkers go away as a Canes affiliate, how much would finally having preseason games there make up for the loss amongst casual Canes fans in Charlotte? If the NHL ever went back to having a game a year for a team at a different site, would having a regular season game there matter? It wouldn't be the same as having the Checkers, but would any of that be as effective or any kind of olive branch? Of course, I'm not saying we'd do that as we haven't for years with an affiliate in Charlotte. I'm again just wondering what's more effective.

 

[Canes]

The Hurricanes could have considered in lieu of those useless Canadian games, ask the Predators or Capitals who they play every year anyways, to meet them in Charleston (Stingrays are the Caps ECHL team), or Greenville SC at the Bi-Lo Center, or just shoot for Charlotte every year like was originally thought. .

It's funny because when I was a kid before I even lived here, I saw a Hurricanes vs. Thrashers preseason game in the North Charleston Coliseum. I'm pretty sure that has been the extent of their outreach to South Carolina (before affiliating with the Swamp Rabbits anyway), a single preseason game like 20 years ago. Sounds like it hasn't been much better for any fans in North Carolina other than a token game in Charlotte and their affiliation with the Checkers. I just don't understand it, even with a limited marketing budget and limited interest in hockey it's almost inexcusable.

 

[Canes]

cant agree with this.

If:
A. chicago will pay a larger affiliate fee
B. Doesn’t require any propping up by the big club because they can sustain themselves ( i.e more money to spend on the big club)

then the move definitely makes sense and is a good one.

If Chicago continues their win at all costs over development model, then I don't really care about that stuff at all and neither should anyone else other than Dundon.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If Chicago continues their win at all costs over development model, then I don't really care about that stuff at all and neither should anyone else other than Dundon.

Well TD gets all the votes so this point is moot.

we control the HC of Chicago so, there is that.

 

[Canes]

Well TD gets all the votes so this point is moot.

we control the HC of Chicago so, there is that.

Even if we employ the head coach, I doubt he's going to play our prospects for development sake, if he has an option to play an AHL all star vet signed by the Wolves instead. Ultimately our AHL coach is trying to win so he can move up another level.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's interesting. I'll definitely read that here shortly. So, with that, I wonder what's more effective? Having the cross promotional nights we've had like Hornets night and Panthers players coming to sound the siren, or the Checkers as a whole operation? Not just from numbers of fans, but resources in general in relation to the number of fans and money spent. I get our knee jerk reaction, and again, my initial reaction is we should keep the team in Charlotte. But I wonder if it truly is as effective as well all are acting like it is or how much having the affiliate there matters.

The difference being the Checkers relationship generates marketing presence while also giving us hockey-related benefits.

This would all be a lot more comprehensible if they were moving the affiliate to Atlanta or Norfolk, to an organization that would be easier to work with from a player development point of view. Affiliating with the Wolves is the opposite of that. We're going to have to factor time zones into call-ups, and work with a notoriously independent organization that in the year 2020 would rather have Zach Boychuk than Jamieson Rees. We are facing a period of self-inflicted problems on both the marketing AND hockey sides.

If rumors are true (and granted, these rumors seemed too idiotic to be plausible just a few weeks ago) the only connection with Chicago is that Waddell has connections there and was able to broker a deal on the fly. This is not a long-term strategic choice by the Hurricanes. This is friction between two CEOs undermining both organizations by taking them both off-mission.

Hell, we have at least one fan saying he is only a Canes fan because of the Checkers. Is that a truly effective form of having a fan? I don't know (and I mean no offense to that or any similar fan).

*raises hand* I was only a Bruins fan because of the Checkers. I'm from Charlotte, not Boston. I can say from personal experience that as a minor league fan, the choice of parent organization is not trivial. And some of those inefficiently-earned minor league fans might just up and move to the Triangle and think to themselves "do I want to go all-in on this organization and become an STH, or do I want to just sit back and come to 2 games a year when my favorite team is in town?".

ETA: It's also a little funny that you brought up that discussion about a tone deaf changing to Ohio when we just had a poster here go to bat loudly for Raleigh Hurricanes over Carolina. If we had been the Raleigh Hurricanes from the beginning, or even Triangle, again, I wonder how much people would be so gung ho about this.

I think it's a bit different in Columbus, where the city is desperate to have something in pro sports to contrast them against Cleveland and Cincy. The difference between Columbus/Ohio Blue Jackets touches on a cultural fault line that doesn't really exist for Raleigh/Carolina.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well TD gets all the votes so this point is moot.

Yeah, that's not how this works. We are the customers here.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Yeah, that's not how this works. We are the customers here.

That is how it works.

he pays the bills, he gets all the votes until he asks for suggestions (much like parenting).

on top of that fans are a means to make money. That is about it. If more money is to be made elsewhere, elsewhere they will go. It is proven time and time again.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I know we've all wanted this for years, but if the Checkers go away as a Canes affiliate, how much would finally having preseason games there make up for the loss amongst casual Canes fans in Charlotte? If the NHL ever went back to having a game a year for a team at a different site, would having a regular season game there matter? It wouldn't be the same as having the Checkers, but would any of that be as effective or any kind of olive branch? Of course, I'm not saying we'd do that as we haven't for years with an affiliate in Charlotte. I'm again just wondering what's more effective.

And where would they play? The Bobcats arena isn't set up for hockey anymore, and the Checkers sure as hell aren't gonna offer up the Bo.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Not to mention I don't think the Wolves are going to be celebrating the Hurricanes by giving them any theme nights or anything to remind casual fans who they're with, in terms of creating Caniacs/Jerks in Chi-Town. At least with Charlotte, everything is in-state and you can build up the NHL's focus in North Carolina's largest city, but with Chicago's AHL team, the Wolves are still going to be Wolves first and foremost.

Yup. And it's not just because their parent is going to be far away. If the Wolves and Hawks put aside their baggage and signed up together, the Wolves still wouldn't promote the Hawks brand as they don't care about that aspect of things. Wolves want decent prospects to play and want to be left alone while they try to win whether they're partnered with a team a few miles away, on the other side of the continent, or in the middle of Siberia.

 

[A Star is Burns]

And where would they play? The Bobcats arena isn't set up for hockey anymore, and the Checkers sure as hell aren't gonna offer up the Bo.

Fair point about the Hornets (lol, got me with the Bobcats) arena. I didn't think it would be impossible to set it up for hockey, but even if possible, it's probably not worth it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That is how it works.

he pays the bills, he gets all the votes until he asks for suggestions (much like parenting).

on top of that fans are a means to make money. That is about it. If more money is to be made elsewhere, elsewhere they will go. It is proven time and time again.

And that's how we get a Melnyk or Wirtz or Ballard, who are clearly bad for the NHL's business model.

There are larger forces than an owner's personal caprice. Undermining the product and alienating core stakeholders are bad behavior, and not excused by "I paid for this and I can do whatever I want".

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

And that's how we get a Melnyk or Wirtz or Ballard, who are clearly bad for the NHL's business model.

There are larger forces than an owner's personal caprice. Undermining the product and alienating core stakeholders are bad behavior, and not excused by "I paid for this and I can do whatever I want".

What core stakeholders are being affected by an AHL move? Zero. TD isn’t stripping the team down to save money. He is doing the opposite. Finding ways to reduce the amount of money going anywhere but for the team on ice / items that bring in more paying customers.

 

[GoldiFox]

Maybe the Canes think they can build a bigger following of hockey fans in Chicago than they can trying to convince Charlotte residents to embrace the NHL. Perhaps the Canes become the secondary/East team that Blackhawks fans tune in for. Especially if the Canes-backed Wolves are winning and stacked with good prospects. All while Carolina's window is opening while the Blackhawks head into a rebuild/retool.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What core stakeholders are being affected by an AHL move? Zero. TD isn’t stripping the team down to save money. He is doing the opposite. Finding ways to reduce the amount of money going anywhere but for the team on ice / items that bring in more paying customers.

I would consider someone like @HisIceness to be a core stakeholder. You’re free to disagree. Aside from his specific personal situation, he represents a group of fans in Charlotte and extending for about halfway across the state who watch Canes games, buy jerseys, and otherwise contribute to the fanbase in addition to being Checkers fans. This move, if it actually happens, would be a slap directly across their faces after buying into the “we’re one hockey family” message that was pushed by the Canes over the past several years.

AFAIC, going to the most development-unfriendly affiliate in the AHL as a money-saver is absolutely “stripping the team down to save money”. How could it be framed any other way? We’re going from an actual AHL championship with our prospects in leading roles, to a situation where our prospects will be lost behind AAAA free agent signings. As far as prospect development is concerned, this is the next worst thing to operating without an affiliate.