Player Discussion Charlie McAvoy VI re-signed, 8 yrs @ 9.5 aav

[CDJ]

I was actually surprised to see McAvoy (and Hedman) finish that high in the voting.

Hedman's +5 was actually 5th best of the Tampa defensemen. Points and Rep went a long way.

I agree about McAvoy's defense. I think many are way overrating him at this point. He got caught up ice and out of position more this season than ever before.

McKenzie Weegar in Florida probably deserved to be a Norris finalist.

I wanted Weegar so bad in the off-season

did NOT expect him to take this big of a jump though

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

Holy f***, please point to where I said he is one dimensional. Go ahead...

Fox is elite offensively and all around very good. Hedman is elite on both ends of the ice. For me it is that simple. Hedman is the best defensemen and had the best season. I emphasize defense when I look at the best DEFENSEmen...it is crazy but that’s how I view it.

Not a chance.

Hedman playing at his peak is probably the best defenseman in the game right now. However he didn't play at that level this season.

If you're going to take a hard line like this you need to have something to back it up.

 

[Root]

I know there’s a dedicated thread to “analytics” here, but the Lightning were statistically better across most, if not all, applicable metrics without Hedman on the ice this season. The ROI on that type of season is typically not worthy of a Norris.

So another example of analytics not telling anywhere close to the whole story. Why was he even nominated then? Why did the players vote him as the best defensemen in the league? Where did Adam Fox come in on that list? Is this another example of journalists knowing more than the actual players?

 

[member 96824]

So another example of analytics not telling anywhere close to the whole story. Why was he even nominated then? Why did the players vote him as the best defensemen in the league? Where did Adam Fox come in on that list? Is this another example of journalists knowing more than the actual players?

There is a large large large difference between being the best defender in the league and being the defender that had the best season in the league.

Players voted on best defender, Norris was a vote on which defender had the best season.

For example, Tyler Toffoli scored more goals than Alex Ovechkin this year. He had a better season goal-scoring, he is not a better goal scorer.

 

[The Laukomotive]

So another example of analytics not telling anywhere close to the whole story. Why was he even nominated then? Why did the players vote him as the best defensemen in the league? Where did Adam Fox come in on that list? Is this another example of journalists knowing more than the actual players?

Points total and reputation. It's not hard to know the biases in voting.

The problem with Hedman this season is over 2/3 of his points came during the PP while starting 60% of 5-on-5 faceoffs in the offensive zone. If his name were Krug, some would say he is a PP specialist playing sheltered minutes.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

all things considered I think Fox was deserving of the win. the real snub was Hedman over McAvoy, but whatever. I love our stallion.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

Holy f***, please point to where I said he is one dimensional. Go ahead...

Fox is elite offensively and all around very good. Hedman is elite on both ends of the ice. For me it is that simple. Hedman is the best defensemen and had the best season. I emphasize defense when I look at the best DEFENSEmen...it is crazy but that’s how I view it.

no offense but this is a pretty over the top, defensive reaction to a post that had zero hostility to it. guy was just pointing out that Fox is better defensively than he's getting credit for here...not just from you both others in this thread. Up until that post there was definitely a consensus forming over the last couple pages that Fox only got the win because of his offensive numbers but that's clearly not true.

As for Hedman he was definitely not one of the 3 best D in the NHL this year and people have repeatedly shared data supporting that.

 

[Root]

There is a large large large difference between being the best defender in the league and being the defender that had the best season in the league.

Players voted on best defender, Norris was a vote on which defender had the best season.

For example, Tyler Toffoli scored more goals than Alex Ovechkin this year. He had a better season goal-scoring, he is not a better goal scorer.

I understand the difference but I disagree there is a "large large" difference. If Fox had the best season of any defensemen than you would think the players too would take note of that.

I understand Fox had great numbers all around but for me I will always believe that the best defensemen should be a guy that can play 25 minutes a night consistently against the other teams top-6 and shut them down while also contributing some offensively. While Adam Fox is a very good player I don't think he is that guy defensively which is why I didn't like seeing him win. I felt the same way when Karlsson won it over Doughty. It is what it is now and it is not going to change.

 

[Root]

Points total and reputation. It's not hard to know the biases in voting.

The problem with Hedman this season is over 2/3 of his points came during the PP while starting 60% of 5-on-5 faceoffs in the offensive zone. If his nawe were Krug, some would say he is a PP specialist playing sheltered minutes.

So the players are bias and not the media? Does the media watch all the games or do they look at the numbers? Analytics, especially when looking at defense, are flawed but more and more it seems like that is what the voters are going off of for the Norris. I just disagree with it, simple as that.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

So the players are bias and not the media? Does the media watch all the games or do they look at the numbers? Analytics, especially when looking at defense, are flawed but more and more it seems like that is what the voters are going off of for the Norris. I just disagree with it, simple as that.

if the voters were going off of analytics then McAvoy would have been a finalist over Hedman. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Norris voters are wowed by offensive numbers. It has been that way for 20+ years. It seems like you think Hedman was robbed by Fox when the reality is that Hedman was only in the conversation because he put up bigger offensive numbers than McAvoy, and those numbers were largely propped up by the PP.

 

[Root]

if the voters were going off of analytics then McAvoy would have been a finalist over Hedman. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Norris voters are wowed by offensive numbers. It has been that way for 20+ years. It seems like you think Hedman was robbed by Fox when the reality is that Hedman was only in the conversation because he put up bigger offensive numbers than McAvoy, and those numbers were largely propped up by the PP.

They use analytics and offensive numbers...is that better? Either way it is exactly what bothers me. They are wowed by offensive numbers and now analytics and I don't think either do the best job at showing who the best DEFENSEmen in the league is. Am I allowed to have that opinion or no?

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

They use analytics and offensive numbers...is that better? Either way it is exactly what bothers me. They are wowed by offensive numbers and now analytics and I don't think either do the best job at showing who the best DEFENSEmen in the league is. Am I allowed to have that opinion or no?

But Hedman's analytics were nothing special this year and he was a finalist so clearly analytics don't play a huge role in the voting.

and you can have whatever opinion you want, man. the point of this board is to discuss things so maybe quit getting offended & making rude comments every time someone disagrees with you. we're just having a back & forth and nobody is attacking you, just presenting data.

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

They use analytics and offensive numbers...is that better? Either way it is exactly what bothers me. They are wowed by offensive numbers and now analytics and I don't think either do the best job at showing who the best DEFENSEmen in the league is. Am I allowed to have that opinion or no?

Just because the word defenseman has a variation of the word defence in it doesn't mean anything.

It's 2021 and offense from a defenseman is to be expected if you want to be considered for a Norris.

This isn't anything new.

 

[Root]

Hedman was a finalist because he has clearly been the best defensemen in the game over the last few years (which is why I think he should have won). I don't think anyone comes close to impacting the game at both ends like him. Everyone else I think they heavily rely on analytics and offensive numbers. I don't think anyone has time to watch most teams consistently so that is what they turn to.

Regarding me snapping, I was an ass in my response to a poster who put words in my mouth. It was over the top so I apologize for that.

 

[Root]

Just because the word defenseman has a variation of the word defence in it doesn't mean anything.

It's 2021 and offense from a defenseman is to be expected if you want to be considered for a Norris.

This isn't anything new.

It doesn't mean anything? You sure?

Yes, offense has long been a factor in the voting for best defensemen but the pendulum has swung too far towards offense for me.

 

[member 96824]

I understand the difference but I disagree there is a "large large" difference. If Fox had the best season of any defensemen than you would think the players too would take note of that.

I understand Fox had great numbers all around but for me I will always believe that the best defensemen should be a guy that can play 25 minutes a night consistently against the other teams top-6 and shut them down while also contributing some offensively. While Adam Fox is a very good player I don't think he is that guy defensively which is why I didn't like seeing him win. I felt the same way when Karlsson won it over Doughty. It is what it is now and it is not going to change.

Adam Fox reminds me a ton of Doughty to be honest. Not anywhere close to as physical but that incredibly toolsy 3 zone defender that you build your game around. I think the Rangers agree, which is why he lead in both PP and SH time on ice per game and was 2nd on the team in even-strength TOI by 3 seconds to Miller, total ice time 24:42, matching up against the opponents top line, 3rd in the league among defenders in takeaways, 2nd in points....I mean..if you mean the bolded, it sounds like you have your guy...

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

i gotta say I don't get the notion that analytics isn't useful for evaluating defense. If anything I think analytics might be able to tell us more about defensive performance than any other aspect of the game. "good defense" has a very narrow set of criteria: namely when player X is on the ice does the team do a good job of preventing goals and chances? Analytics can tell us a TON about those things. It's pretty easy to see if a player has a positive defensive impact from just looking at numbers. I'm not saying you shouldn't use the eye test too, but a defender's job is to get results and analytics is purely about looking at said results. This is especially true for the top tier defensemen because they play more minutes, which gives us more data, which makes the data more reliable.

 

[Root]

Adam Fox reminds me a ton of Doughty to be honest. Not anywhere close to as physical but that incredibly toolsy 3 zone defender that you build your game around. I think the Rangers agree, which is why he lead in both PP and SH time on ice per game and was 2nd on the team in even-strength TOI by 3 seconds to Miller, total ice time 24:42, matching up against the opponents top line, 3rd in the league among defenders in takeaways, 2nd in points....I mean..if you mean the bolded, it sounds like you have your guy...

I don't think he is as good as Doughty defensively. To be fair, the kid has only played 125 NHL games so he certainly can be. But I think he got a lot of those minutes because the Rangers defense is weak and they didn't have anyone else to play in those situations. Obviously he did a good job but I don't know if he is that defensive horse. Clearly he is offensively and he is solid defensively. I don't think the guy sucks or is a liability in his own zone by any stretch.

 

[member 96824]

Rags made this graphic that I found funny on this very topic.

(obviously some stuff changed like leading in points)

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

Rags made this graphic that I found funny on this very topic.

(obviously some stuff changed like leading in points)

Yea but my feelings

 

[wintersej]

Not strong enough defensively. To me the Norris is now awarded to the best offensive defensemen and no longer the best all around defensemen. Hedman should have won it.

Hedman was hurt a huge hunk of the 2nd half and wasn't himself. We all know Hedman is the best D, but he didn't have the best season. Fox is a good all around D. I, of course, prefer our guy, but its not as offensive as if Hamilton won it or something.

 

[finchster]

It’s been that way for years. Exactly why Torey Krug was getting Norris trophy votes despite being garbage defensively.

The problem with this sentance is Krug wasn't getting Norris Trophy votes, he was getting Norris Trophy vote . One second place vote one year, and one fifth place vote another.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

if the voters were going off of analytics then McAvoy would have been a finalist over Hedman. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Norris voters are wowed by offensive numbers. It has been that way for 20+ years. It seems like you think Hedman was robbed by Fox when the reality is that Hedman was only in the conversation because he put up bigger offensive numbers than McAvoy, and those numbers were largely propped up by the PP.

Its actually always been that way.

The first two winners of the Norris trophy were Red Kelly (1954) and Doug Harvey (1955). Both led defensemen in scoring.

Harvey won two others while leading in scoring.

Pierre Pilote won 3 in a row in the early 60s, twice as the leading scorer.

Of course Bobby Orr won 7 times as the leading scorer.

All 3 years Denis Potvin won the Norris he was the top scoring defenseman. Larry Robinson won in between, and yes, he was the leading scorer.

In the last 4 years the leading scorer for defensemen has not won the Norris. Only one other time did that happen and that was because Paul Coffey was outscoring everyone but not winning the Norris.

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

I don’t think you should have to necessarily be great defensively to win the Norris. I think it should go to the best player who plays the defense position.

 

[rocketdan9]

I would imagine McAvoy next contract will be 6.5m + per with max term