CBJ Powerplay 2021-22

[tunnelvision]

I suppose these are the units they're going to run in Buffalo. Thought it would be good to add these here in advance for later analyses after tonight's game... well, if they manage to get on power play in the first place and there are things to analyse.

So Bemstrom will be watching on the bench. I guess Hofmann (isn't dressed for the game) will take over Yegor Bomb's spot and Bemstrom Sillinger's if either unit fails to utilize and the rookies aren't helping. But it's hard to predict what Larsen has in mind for different variations, after all he sees Jenner as PP1 net front player while Nyquist and Texier are splitting time on PP2.

 

[majormajor]

They've got the wrong-handedness on the points again. I really want to know what the coaches' conversation was about this. Please tell me that they've thought this through.

 

[Monstershockey]

They've got the wrong-handedness on the points again. I really want to know what the coaches' conversation was about this. Please tell me that they've thought this through.

I'm thinking they are putting what they think is their best guys on PP1. They were minus Bjork only on Jenner's PP goal and it worked fine. The way it is set up is that there could be a shot coming from anywhere at anytime with this set up. I like it.

 

[DarkandStormy]

They've got the wrong-handedness on the points again. I really want to know what the coaches' conversation was about this. Please tell me that they've thought this through.

I agree, though I suppose if you have elite enough players it doesn't matter. Kucherov operates on one side with Stamkos on the opposite side (Point is in the middle as the "bumper"). By handedness, they should have a righty D operating along the blue line but they have Hedman. So I suppose the only noticeable change is the coaches think they have better talent now?

If the goal is to have the first PP unit right through Voracek, then it would make more sense to have a right handed D at the top, so Voracek would have three options for one-timers or quick snap shots from a pass. Basically any pass to Werenski is going to take an extra beat for Z to get the puck to his forehand and usually by then, the PK unit will have had time to shift into place. It's...really what has plagued this unit for several years (besides the, you know, overall strategy of just not moving).

 

[tunnelvision]

Basically any pass to Werenski is going to take an extra beat for Z to get the puck to his forehand and usually by then, the PK unit will have had time to shift into place. It's...really what has plagued this unit for several years (besides the, you know, overall strategy of just not moving).

This is very true. Another issue with Werenski is that he usually wants to take a longer hold of the puck before releasing it forward, he's not an ideal quick puck mover compared to Hedman or Jones. That is limiting to different possibilities for quick two-or-more-way passing plays on PP. Werenski rarely makes one touch passes on the point if he gets the puck off either wing.

 

[tunnelvision]

2/3 in Buffalo, both goals from the Jenner unit. Can't really complain about personnel and right/left-handedness of different positions yet. I remember there were many clean zone entries with players carrying and passing the puck around.

Nyquist looked he was ready for regular season action which probably means his spot on PP units is secured for now.

2nd squad understandably didn't get as many opportunities but I thought there is some potential in that combination too, however Sillinger as a leftie playing the left half wall looks kind of awkward. He had at least one giveaway where he was standing still on the wall with no good passing options and ended up returning the puck to Boqvist but Buffalo's pk guy got stick in the lane which killed the whole play.

I took this Pascal Vincent interview from late June @LJ7201 posted in GDT thread here:



Approximately at 20:00 they begin to talk about PP stuff and shooting mechanics.

In short some of the bits he said:

- We need to get bodies and pucks around the net area, "inner slot", that's where most of NHL goals are scored 5vs5 and PP
- Velocity and spin of the puck affects on how the pass should be received for a one time shot (or another type of play). Didn't mention is it better to have a clockwise or counterwise spin on puck for Laine one timer from that left half wall. LH forehand pass gives you a counterclockwise spin?
- East-west plays are difficult for goalies to stop

 

[majormajor]

2/3 in Buffalo, both goals from the Jenner unit. Can't really complain about personnel and right/left-handedness of different positions yet. I remember there were many clean zone entries with players carrying and passing the puck around.

Nyquist looked he was ready for regular season action which probably means his spot on PP units is secured for now.

2nd squad understandably didn't get as many opportunities but I thought there is some potential in that combination too, however Sillinger as a leftie playing the left half wall looks kind of awkward. He had at least one giveaway where he was standing still on the wall with no good passing options and ended up returning the puck to Boqvist but Buffalo's pk guy got stick in the lane which killed the whole play.

I took this Pascal Vincent interview from late June @LJ7201 posted in GDT thread here:



Approximately at 20:00 they begin to talk about PP stuff and shooting mechanics.

In short some of the bits he said:

- We need to get bodies and pucks around the net area, "inner slot", that's where most of NHL goals are scored 5vs5 and PP
- Velocity and spin of the puck affects on how the pass should be received for a one time shot (or another type of play). Didn't mention is it better to have a clockwise or counterwise spin on puck for Laine one timer from that left half wall. LH forehand pass gives you a counterclockwise spin?
- East-west plays are difficult for goalies to stop

- I really took note of the clean entries. That is so pivotal. They have the talent to score once they get in.

- It was also frankly just great to see Voracek's mastery. The Buffalo PK played poorly and he abused them.

- I didn't see the quickest puck movement overall for the Jackets. They can and should get much faster than this. More one-touch plays, especially.

- The argument I've made for why Carlson -> OV and Byfuglien -> Laine work better is because the pointman doesn't need to pull the puck back to their forehand to pass it to the one-timer. They get the puck over just a split second faster, just enough to keep the shot lane open. I don't know anything about spin. I'm sure Pascal Vincent knows this stuff infinitely better than I do, I would just like to hear him speak to handedness issues so I could learn what they're thinking.

 

[Jan]

I'm thinking they are putting what they think is their best guys on PP1. They were minus Bjork only on Jenner's PP goal and it worked fine. The way it is set up is that there could be a shot coming from anywhere at anytime with this set up. I like it.

Completely agree!

The problem with almost all the previously years of CBJ was predictable.
Last season it was all about setting Laine up, and every other team knew that and could adjust their box for that.
It lead to many not perfect passes to Laine, which the opposition was waiting for. Consequence was that Laine often looked bad.

This PP have five players that can score and at least three snipers and griner to snap any bounces.
This would be much more difficult to setup a box against it.
It is simply, any where that you make a hole in the bos and the puck is likely in the net.

In my point of view, there was to much focus on giving Laine the puck last season...

 

[majormajor]

2/3 in Buffalo, both goals from the Jenner unit. Can't really complain about personnel and right/left-handedness of different positions yet. I remember there were many clean zone entries with players carrying and passing the puck around.

Nyquist looked he was ready for regular season action which probably means his spot on PP units is secured for now.

2nd squad understandably didn't get as many opportunities but I thought there is some potential in that combination too, however Sillinger as a leftie playing the left half wall looks kind of awkward. He had at least one giveaway where he was standing still on the wall with no good passing options and ended up returning the puck to Boqvist but Buffalo's pk guy got stick in the lane which killed the whole play.

I took this Pascal Vincent interview from late June @LJ7201 posted in GDT thread here:



Approximately at 20:00 they begin to talk about PP stuff and shooting mechanics.

In short some of the bits he said:

- We need to get bodies and pucks around the net area, "inner slot", that's where most of NHL goals are scored 5vs5 and PP
- Velocity and spin of the puck affects on how the pass should be received for a one time shot (or another type of play). Didn't mention is it better to have a clockwise or counterwise spin on puck for Laine one timer from that left half wall. LH forehand pass gives you a counterclockwise spin?
- East-west plays are difficult for goalies to stop

I'm just learning about this now and it is blowing my mind.

Clearest quote in the article is from Max Pacioretty:

"Let’s have a little physics class. When a lefty passes the puck, the puck spins counter-clockwise. So, when a lefty shoots the puck you keep the spin going counter-clockwise. If it’s a righty shooting the puck, [the shooter] has to reverse the spin of the puck and it’s harder for it to come off your blade."

I have to imagine Vincent is aware of this, though he still has the PP points with the wrong handedness to match the big one-timers.

I still think the bigger factor is that matching handedness is a quicker pass to make, which keeps the shot lane open, but it does seem to really matter for the shot quality as well, and my mind is blown by this part of the game that I've never thought about.

 

[tunnelvision]

I'm just learning about this now and it is blowing my mind.

Thanks for sharing. Nice to see Bieksa bringing this up and the topic being discussed more in detail. Also surprising to me that spin of the pass would really matter to NHL-level shooters. Made a few notes about the article and CBJ PP point men...

- Yes, as Pacioretty says, LH forehand pass gives the puck a counterclockwise spin, but only if the passer curls the puck on his blade from heel to toe. I would guess most of the LH forehand passes are executed this way. However, it is also possible to pass the puck with barely any spin or with clockwise spin (=twisting the blade to move the puck reversely, toe-to-heel).

- Sedins and Markov most certainly aren't the only players able to "manipulate" puck spins for different handed shooters. Jones and Werenski both seem to be aware of this.



Watch closely with 0.25x speed how Jones makes his pass to Werenski. I think that's a slight counterclockwise spin on the puck. which is said to be easier for LH one time shots.



Jones to Bemstrom. This time it is a CW spin, better for RH shooters.



Notice the puck movement between Werenski and Laine prior to Jenner's PP goal. It seems Werenski feeds RH Laine with a CW spin on puck instead of a CCW spin.

- Article didn't mention anything about one touch passes. They are much harder to manipulate. In some cases the angle of first pass pretty much determines the puck spin of next pass. For example if you think of a one touch passing play on CBJ PP starting from right half wall, Voracek-to-Werenski-to-Laine, in this case Werenski is forced to redirect the puck to Laine with a CW spin regardless whether Voracek passes to Werenski with CW or CCW spin. Same goes the other way (Laine to Werenski to Voracek), but this time the Werenski's one touch pass would be a CCW almost necessarily.

I still think the bigger factor is that matching handedness is a quicker pass to make, which keeps the shot lane open, but it does seem to really matter for the shot quality as well, and my mind is blown by this part of the game that I've never thought about.

If RH point man passes to RH left half wall player (let's say Boqvist to Laine) as a followthrough of fake wrist shot, it does not only open a lot of room on the shooting lane, but is also a type of pass that is usually done with CW spin since it's more of a heel-to-toe movement on the blade, which would be best for RH shooter.

In other words I'm still puzzled about their PP line up decisions regarding handedness of point men and half wall players.

 

[majormajor]

Thanks for sharing. Nice to see Bieksa bringing this up and the topic being discussed more in detail. Also surprising to me that spin of the pass would really matter to NHL-level shooters. Made a few notes about the article and CBJ PP point men...

- Yes, as Pacioretty says, LH forehand pass gives the puck a counterclockwise spin, but only if the passer curls the puck on his blade from heel to toe. I would guess most of the LH forehand passes are executed this way. However, it is also possible to pass the puck with barely any spin or with clockwise spin (=twisting the blade to move the puck reversely, toe-to-heel).

- Sedins and Markov most certainly aren't the only players able to "manipulate" puck spins for different handed shooters. Jones and Werenski both seem to be aware of this.



Watch closely with 0.25x speed how Jones makes his pass to Werenski. I think that's a slight counterclockwise spin on the puck. which is said to be easier for LH one time shots.



Jones to Bemstrom. This time it is a CW spin, better for RH shooters.



Notice the puck movement between Werenski and Laine prior to Jenner's PP goal. It seems Werenski feeds RH Laine with a CW spin on puck instead of a CCW spin.

- Article didn't mention anything about one touch passes. They are much harder to manipulate. In some cases the angle of first pass pretty much determines the puck spin of next pass. For example if you think of a one touch passing play on CBJ PP starting from right half wall, Voracek-to-Werenski-to-Laine, in this case Werenski is forced to redirect the puck to Laine with a CW spin regardless whether Voracek passes to Werenski with CW or CCW spin. Same goes the other way (Laine to Werenski to Voracek), but this time the Werenski's one touch pass would be a CCW almost necessarily.


If RH point man passes to RH left half wall player (let's say Boqvist to Laine) as a followthrough of fake wrist shot, it does not only open a lot of room on the shooting lane, but is also a type of pass that is usually done with CW spin since it's more of a heel-to-toe movement on the blade, which would be best for RH shooter.

In other words I'm still puzzled about their PP line up decisions regarding handedness of point men and half wall players.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is something Werenski has worked on, these are masters of their trade. Though I must admit my eyes aren't quite sharp enough to tell which way the puck is coming off the blade in those videos.

Obviously if Werenski is facing Laine, then by the time the puck gets there the shot lane will be gone, so I think there's only so much to be gained by clockwise-spin passes and whatnot. I'm also baffled.

 

[EspenK]

New advanced stat...X-direction-puckspin

 

[koteka]

New advanced stat...X-direction-puckspin

Or PP-correct-spin%

 

[EspenK]

Or PP-correct-spin%

Yours is better. So we will have that and one with an X.

 

[LJ7]

I think Werenski is still a better option than Boqvist despite the disadvantage of being LH. Werenski is more of a scoring threat and in general reads the game better and more confidently at this stage. The pros outweigh the handedness cons imo.

As the first unit builds more chemistry and adds more wrinkles I expect Werenski and Bjorkstrand to swap positions in the flow of the PP sometimes, and for Laine to get chances off of Bjorkstrand's passes from the point.

 

[tunnelvision]

The pros outweigh the handedness cons imo.

Sounds reasonable, but would you say the same about 2nd unit? Boqvist is "wrong" handed for Chinakhov's one timer but his overall offensive contribution helps the PP more than having some lefty on the point (Bean) would do?

 

[LJ7]

Sounds reasonable, but would you say the same about 2nd unit? Boqvist is "wrong" handed for Chinakhov's one timer but his overall offensive contribution helps the PP more than having some lefty on the point (Bean) would do?

Not sure. I haven't seen enough yet of those two guys to have an opinion on that

 

[Vapaatunnus]

Zach is wrong handed when passing to Laine and Jake does some stupid cross over pass tries to Laine which are stopped in the middle. That is not going to work in long run.

 

[Halberdier]

Zach is wrong handed when passing to Laine and Jake does some stupid cross over pass tries to Laine which are stopped in the middle. That is not going to work in long run.

I am not on that "wrong handed" crowd that much. Being LHD or RHD has their own set of advantages and disadvantages. Just pass a bit often and a tad faster and everything is alright. The clear advantage for the current situation is that Laine & Zach can pass each other more easily and feed each other if needed.

And play Laine 2 minutes on PP, both units. He doesn't play PK anyway and can easily handle some extra minutes.

 

[majormajor]

The clear advantage for the current situation is that Laine & Zach can pass each other more easily and feed each other if needed.

That is certainly not clear to me. Versus Dallas, Zach never even had the puck pulled back to his left where he could have passed it to Laine. He only had it either in shooting position or facing Voracek.

And if he does pull it back to his left, then the PKers know to cover Laine's shot lane. The easy pass we are interested in is the one Zach can make from shooting position.

 

[Monstershockey]

To me, it seems like they have stopped moving when on the PP. Earlier it seemed like guys were moving around and switching spots to give different looks. I don't know if the defence is forcing the issue or Columbus has changed it up, but it felt like the player and puck movement was better the first few games.

 

[tunnelvision]

Well, PP1 sucked against Rangers. Wonder if they're going to make any line up changes for Devils game.

Interesting story from today . Jody Shelley on the radio this morning said Bjorkstrand told him that Voracek has taken the leadership by the horns , when he first came in he said this is what we are going to do on the powerplay , this is where your going to go , if I go here , then you need to be here . Bjork said this was first time this team has been taught the finer details and positioning during the powerplay

Like Jody said on the interview, I think it is shocking to know that, according to Bjorkstrand, in the past they have never gone through those details with the group while planning PP set ups. Who were the coaches supposed to be responsible for PP line ups and tactics during Torts era? I'd like to hear more first hand comments from Bjorkstrand before criticising the coaches but this does not look good on Torts, Larsen or Shaw, maybe even Vincent.

Does Jake even have a say on what players they decide to have on PP units? What is the extent of his authority? Does he prefer having LH point man over RH when he's on the PP?

 

[majormajor]

this does not look good on Torts, Larsen or Shaw, maybe even Vincent.

So basically it shows the value of having a veteran PPQB? That you can't just expect the same results if you put a bunch of talented kids out there and have coaches try to teach them? Sounds fair to me.

 

[tunnelvision]

So basically it shows the value of having a veteran PPQB? That you can't just expect the same results if you put a bunch of talented kids out there and have coaches try to teach them? Sounds fair to me.

I believe that a coach or anyone communicating with players from "outside" cannot teach certain details as precisely and successfully as some player who is involved in performing the plays. However, I still think that coach should be able to tell where everyone should be at in any moment, according to location of puck and positioning of the player having the possession. You don't need to demonstrate that by skating with the puck and showing your own example, even a bit of video coaching can do wonders.

I might have high expectations for NHL coaches, their knowledge of these things and how much they can affect actual player movements on power play.

 

[Jan]

I'd like to hear more first hand comments from Bjorkstrand before criticising the coaches but this does not look good on Torts, Larsen or Shaw, maybe even Vincent.

He only said that there was part of the position, that had not been made before.
Questions is more does it work?

See the fact below

Since starting 3/7 in the first 3 games, they are 2/15 since. There was no movement at all yesterday, the guys would go to their spots and pretty much stay there. The puck and the players need to move. They have become very predictable. I don't know if it is laziness, or if defences have adjusted and we haven't. I thought the second unit made more of an effort on the PP.

And ask yourself if the PP is really better now?

Look at the Rangers PK:
Two forwards to block Zach's shorts and to cover passes to Oliver.
Two defensemen to catch the rebounds before Jenner.
All four Ranger was in a very slime rectangle in front of Zach and didn't have to move much.
That how easy they took care of our PP.
That was basically what the Cane and Stars did as well.
What about Laine, for some reason, they trusted their goalies on him and let him shoot all he wanted.

Am I the only one that has seen this in the PP?